WARD BASED HIS STORY ON ORIGINAL "THE BEALE PAPERS" PUBLISHED 1850

[Old Silver]

Remember, Anglo-Americans were NOT WELCOME in Spanish controlled territory.
If they bought mining tools from local Santa Fe merchants, don't you think that would arouse the attentions of the authorities in Santa Fe, that Kit Carson called "Santa Fe that far Mexican metropolis of the Spanish settlements"?

No doubt. And did Beale and his party end up back home in Virginia and lived happily ever after? According to the story, the party knew that there were people who had found out what they had found, and it was expected there could be trouble. Also, according to the story, Beale and his party disappeared, never to return.

 

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[ECS]

Instead of discussing "false and idle punctilios" of speculation, lets look at the political climate of the time period of 1795 to the signing of the Adams-Onis Treaty.
Spanish territory in North America in 1783 extended from Florida and the land west of the Mississippi River to the Pacific Ocean. The Spanish government controlled the Mississippi port of New Orleans, and would not give the United States access, or the free navigation of the Mississippi. This was resolved with the 1795 Pinckney Treaty with Spain.
n 1800, Napoleon Bonaparte forced Spain to cede the Louisiana Territory to France, with Spain retaining Florida and the Southwest territories to the Pacific.
After Jefferson's Louisiana Purchase, Spain began to see the encroachment of the United States on their remaining claimed property's rich resources.
In 1810 and 1813, the United States the area of Spanish West Florida, and the Spanish government responded by forbidding Anglo-American intrusion in their remaining claimed territory, arresting, detaining, and at times, executing the American trespassers. This was the political climate during the time of the alleged Beale expedition as related in the job pamphlet. With the time involved in the mining of the gold and silver, it is highly unlikely that it would have gone unnoticed by the authorities in Santa Fe.
What is curious, as Bigscoop has pointed out, is that Beale Bedford county treasure deposit dates in the job pamphlet, coincide with the signing and ratifying dates of the Adams-Onis Treaty.

 

[Old Silver]

Instead of discussing "false and idle punctilios" of speculation, lets look at the political climate of the time period of 1795 to the signing of the Adams-Onis Treaty.
Spanish territory in North America in 1783 extended from Florida and the land west of the Mississippi River to the Pacific Ocean. The Spanish government controlled the Mississippi port of New Orleans, and would not give the United States access, or the free navigation of the Mississippi. This was resolved with the 1795 Pinckney Treaty with Spain.
n 1800, Napoleon Bonaparte forced Spain to cede the Louisiana Territory to France, with Spain retaining Florida and the Southwest territories to the Pacific.
After Jefferson's Louisiana Purchase, Spain began to see the encroachment of the United States on their remaining claimed property's rich resources.
In 1810 and 1813, the United States the area of Spanish West Florida, and the Spanish government responded by forbidding Anglo-American intrusion in their remaining claimed territory, arresting, detaining, and at times, executing the American trespassers. This was the political climate during the time of the alleged Beale expedition as related in the job pamphlet. With the time involved in the mining of the gold and silver, it is highly unlikely that it would have gone unnoticed by the authorities in Santa Fe.
What is curious, as Bigscoop has pointed out, is that Beale Bedford county treasure deposit dates in the job pamphlet, coincide with the signing and ratifying dates of the Adams-Onis Treaty.

Okay, good, no more false and idle punctilios. So we won't have to hear anything more about a dime novel about a cave in KY...or was it...

 

[bigscoop]

Instead of discussing "false and idle punctilios" of speculation, lets look at the political climate of the time period of 1795 to the signing of the Adams-Onis Treaty.
Spanish territory in North America in 1783 extended from Florida and the land west of the Mississippi River to the Pacific Ocean. The Spanish government controlled the Mississippi port of New Orleans, and would not give the United States access, or the free navigation of the Mississippi. This was resolved with the 1795 Pinckney Treaty with Spain.
n 1800, Napoleon Bonaparte forced Spain to cede the Louisiana Territory to France, with Spain retaining Florida and the Southwest territories to the Pacific.
After Jefferson's Louisiana Purchase, Spain began to see the encroachment of the United States on their remaining claimed property's rich resources.
In 1810 and 1813, the United States the area of Spanish West Florida, and the Spanish government responded by forbidding Anglo-American intrusion in their remaining claimed territory, arresting, detaining, and at times, executing the American trespassers. This was the political climate during the time of the alleged Beale expedition as related in the job pamphlet. With the time involved in the mining of the gold and silver, it is highly unlikely that it would have gone unnoticed by the authorities in Santa Fe.
What is curious, as Bigscoop has pointed out, is that Beale Bedford county treasure deposit dates in the job pamphlet, coincide with the signing and ratifying dates of the Adams-Onis Treaty.

The use of the word, "punctilio" was by design, for sure. As for the political climate, one really needs to investigate all of the treaties that took place from 1818 to 1821 as there was much finally solidified during the period that shaped this country and it's commerce and trade. But these hugely important treaties didn't just impact the Americans. So while the focus has been on just the Adams Onis Treaty dates there were other treaties that possibly came into play as well, most notably the treaty of 1818 in which a few very important and lingering issues were finally resolved, sort of.

 

[ECS]

Okay, good, no more false and idle punctilios. So we won't have to hear anything more about a dime novel about a cave in KY...or was it...

The treasure of Robert O Willis composed of gold, silver, and jewelry hidden in a cave in Kentucky was news that was reported in the April 16,1879 edition of the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN that was owned by Charles W Button and John William Sherman was sub-editor.
Considering that Button stated that Sherman wrote the Beale Papers and in that job pamphlet it is stated that Beale's treasure was composed of gold, silver, and jewelry, it is relevant information concerning the creation of the Beale Papers, which is the discussion contained in this thread.
One can clearly discern the similarity of the two treasure descriptions is more that just mere coincidence.
Therefore NOT qualifying as a "false and idle punctilio".

 

[Old Silver]

The treasure of Robert O Willis composed of gold, silver, and jewelry hidden in a cave in Kentucky was news that was reported in the April 16,1879 edition of the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN that was owned by Charles W Button and John William Sherman was sub-editor.
Considering that Button stated that Sherman wrote the Beale Papers and in that job pamphlet it is stated that Beale's treasure was composed of gold, silver, and jewelry, it is relevant information concerning the creation of the Beale Papers, which is the discussion contained in this thread.
One can clearly discern the similarity of the two treasure descriptions is more that just mere coincidence.
Therefore NOT qualifying as a "false and idle punctilio".

There was also gold, silver and jewels found at Victorio Peak. Does that mean it has to have something to do with the Beale treasure? Victorio Peak is located out west, and that's where Beale was said to have found his treasure.

 

[ECS]

I don't believe "jewelry" was found at Victorio Peak, or if it was reported in the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN when Sherman was sub-editor, so that question is not germane to the discussion.
Now, who said that Beale found his treasure at Victorio Peak and is that statement documented or is that statement speculation?

 

[Old Silver]

I don't believe "jewelry" was found at Victorio Peak, or if it was reported in the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN when Sherman was sub-editor, so that question is not germane to the discussion.
Now, who said that Beale found his treasure at Victorio Peak and is that statement documented or is that statement speculation?

Speculated, just the same as you're doing with your theory. You are doing the very thing that you tell others they can't do.

 

[ECS]

What I post is based on research concerning those involved in the copyright, printing , and publication of the 1885 Beale Papers and the influences that were used in its creation, be it the Risqué extended family bloodline, various journals, diaries, and newspaper articles, and the documented history of events during the several time periods mentioned in the Beale Papers and the job pamphlet's copyright and publishing. All these factors were brought forth for consideration.
I then analyzed the narrative text, discovering Shakespeare references related to the duel between Risque and Beale, the Beale letters being written in iambic pentameter, several anachronisms in word usage and events which have been addressed , some have yet to be, and all have been documented on this thread to support my opinion.
What has not been presented, is any evidence outside of the Beale narrative text that can conclusively prove that anything in the job pamphlet ever actually occurred.

 

[Old Silver]

What I post is based on research concerning those involved in the copyright, printing , and publication of the 1885 Beale Papers and the influences that were used in its creation, be it the Risqué extended family bloodline, various journals, diaries, and newspaper articles, and the documented history of events during the several time periods mentioned in the Beale Papers and the job pamphlet's copyright and publishing. All these factors were brought forth for consideration.
I then analyzed the narrative text, discovering Shakespeare references related to the duel between Risque and Beale, the Beale letters being written in iambic pentameter, several anachronisms in word usage and events which have been addressed , some have yet to be, and all have been documented on this thread to support my opinion.
What has not been presented, is any evidence outside of the Beale narrative text that can conclusively prove that anything in the job pamphlet ever actually occurred.

But that is only one of many theories that are based on research. There is no irrefutable proof that that theory, or any other, is the truth of the story. Your favorite theory could be correct, but then, many others could be as well.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest this and that, and for different theories. Here's one example. There are newspaper ads showing Robert Morriss put up his furniture for sale. He was shutting down his house of entertainment. In just a few days after Beale returned, with the last deposit (supposed), Morriss retracted his ad, stating he was letting everyone know that he was able to keep open his house of entertainment. Something happened for Morriss financially, in that exact moment the Beale story says Beale showed up for the last time. This was the time when Morriss and Beale made an agreement concerning the iron box. Now, does this mean the treasure story is fact? No. But it's pretty good suggestive evidence, though I expect you to have an even better alternative.

 

[ECS]

... Victorio Peak is located out west, and that's where Beale was said to have found his treasure.

Once again, who said Beale found his treasure at Victorio Peak? Provenance, please.

 

[Old Silver]

Once again, who said Beale found his treasure at Victorio Peak? Provenance, please.

I didn't say he found it there. There is a thought that part, or maybe all, of the Beale treasure was hidden away there. There use to be a thread on it, you might do a search.

 

[ECS]

But that is only one of many theories that are based on research. There is no irrefutable proof that that theory, or any other, is the truth of the story...

The major rub is that there is no evidence that can conclusively prove that anything in the 1885 Beale Papers, actually ever happened. All that is presented is maybe, could have, while I have presented the very possible story behind the Beale story with provided provenance.

 

[Old Silver]

The major rub is that there is no evidence that can conclusively prove that anything in the 1885 Beale Papers, actually ever happened. All that is presented is maybe, could have, while I have presented the very possible story behind the Beale story with provided provenance.

Only to your own satisfaction. What I have posted about Morriss suddenly coming into money, at just the right time, is as good as any other piece suggestive evidence I have seen.

 

[ECS]

No, Episcopalian. MOSTLY was in Bedford/Lynchburg, Va. "area"... "google" Rev. Charles Green Clay; LOTS of info! HH! Good Luck!

Research has shown that Rev Charles Green Clay, Col Issac Coles, Capt William Witcher, Gen Andrew Jackson, and Cheif Justice Marshall, mentioned as guests of Robert Morris in the 1885 Beale Papers, all personally knew Thomas Jefferson.
Coincidence?
Those names were mentioned for a reason.

 

[ECS]

Only to your own satisfaction. What I have posted about Morriss suddenly coming into money, at just the right time, is as good as any other piece suggestive evidence I have seen.

But Morriss never solved the ciphers, so the source is questionable.

 

[Old Silver]

But Morriss never solved the ciphers, so the source is questionable.

The source that tells of him selling his furniture and closing down his house of entertainment is not questionable.

 

[ECS]

... but the money source is.

 

[Old Silver]

... but the money source is.

It's all questionable in that we don' know for sure.

 

[franklin]

But that is only one of many theories that are based on research. There is no irrefutable proof that that theory, or any other, is the truth of the story. Your favorite theory could be correct, but then, many others could be as well.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest this and that, and for different theories. Here's one example. There are newspaper ads showing Robert Morriss put up his furniture for sale. He was shutting down his house of entertainment. In just a few days after Beale returned, with the last deposit (supposed), Morriss retracted his ad, stating he was letting everyone know that he was able to keep open his house of entertainment. Something happened for Morriss financially, in that exact moment the Beale story says Beale showed up for the last time. This was the time when Morriss and Beale made an agreement concerning the iron box. Now, does this mean the treasure story is fact? No. But it's pretty good suggestive evidence, though I expect you to have an even better alternative.

A couple reasons Robert Morris decided to open the iron box in 1845. One of his sisters died in 1839. Then his oldest half sister that mostly raised Robert Morris died in 1843. Two good reasons for Robert Morris to decide to open the iron box plus Beale and his men had not shown up even after he had waited the allotted ten years (1832) so now he had waited an extra 13 years. Time to open the box.