Napoleon & Jefferson

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bigscoop

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A lot of people don't realize just how serious things had gotten between Jefferson/US and Napoleon, both having entirely different plans for what we know know to be the United States. I ran across this explanation the other day regarding the Louisiana Purchase and I thought it explained things pretty well, so here you go:

How were the negotiations for the Louisiana Purchase conducted, and what were the terms agreed on? What were t? - Yahoo! Answers

In 1802, U.S. President Thomas Jefferson wanted to purchase New Orleans. The city of New Orleans controlled the Mississippi River, which was already important for shipping goods to and from the parts of the USA west of the Appalachian Mountains. Through Pinckney's Treaty with Spain, American merchants had "right of deposit" in New Orleans, meaning they could use the port for their goods. Napoléon Bonaparte returned Louisiana to French control from Spain (Louisiana had been a colony of Spain since 1762). Americans were fearful that they would lose their rights of use to New Orleans. The Jefferson administration decided that the best way to assure long term access to the Mississippi would be to purchase the city of New Orleans and the nearby portions of Louisiana east of the Mississippi. Jefferson sent James Monroe and Robert R. Livingston to Paris to negotiate such a purchase.

Jefferson had laid the groundwork for the purchase by sending Livingston to Paris in 1801 after discovering France's transfer of Louisiana from Spain. Livingston was to pursue a purchase of New Orleans but was rebuffed.

In 1802 Pierre Samuel du Pont de Nemours was sent. Du Pont was living in the U.S. at the time and had close ties to Jefferson, as well as to the political powers in France. Du Pont engaged in back channel diplomacy with Napoléon, on Jefferson's behalf, during this visit to France. Pierre du Pont originated the idea of the much larger Louisiana Purchase on this trip as a way to defuse a potential conflict between the U.S. and Napoléon over North America.

Jefferson hated the idea; purchasing Louisiana from France would imply that France had a right to be in Louisiana. Jefferson also believed that Presidents didn't have the authority to engage in such a deal, and doing so would further erode state's rights. Talleyrand, likewise, was vehemently opposed to selling Louisiana, as it would mean an end to France's secret plans for North America.

Throughout this time Jefferson had up to date intelligence on Napoléon's military activities and intentions in North America. Part of his evolving strategy involved giving du Pont information that was withheld from Livingston. He also gave the two intentionally conflicting instructions. The final stroke was sending Monroe to Paris in 1803. Monroe had been formerly expelled from France on his last diplomatic mission, and Jefferson's choice to send him was a pointed one, meant to convey a sense of deadly seriousness.

Jefferson's strategy had the desired effect, instilling a sense of fear and uncertainty in the negotiations. Just days before Monroe's arrival, in April, Napoléon offered to sell all of Louisiana instead of just New Orleans.

With Monroe's arrival Napoléon decided to offer the entire territory to the United States. The American negotiators were prepared to spend $2 million for New Orleans, but were dumbfounded when the entire region from the Gulf of Mexico to Rupert's Land and from the Mississippi River to the Rocky Mountains, which would double the size of the USA, was offered for less than 3 cents per acre ($7 per square kilometer). Although not authorized to make such a large purchase, Monroe and Livingston recognized the unique historic opportunity and accepted Napoléon's offer. Final negotiations were carried out with the Marquis de Barbé-Marbois, Napoleon's minister of the treasury.

While Napoléon then had the most powerful army in Europe, he saw the sale of his American territory as a goodwill gesture and a strategic move against the British. A strong America would be a buffer against Britain when the inevitable showdown came (there is also the possibility that he wished to encourage the USA to assist with his embargo on strategic resources reaching the British, the Continental policy). The plan would, at the least, keep America out of the French conflict with Britain, and France out of North America.

The Louisiana Purchase Agreement called for two conventions to specify the financial aspects. The first (30 April 1803) was to call for the payment of 60 million francs ($11,250,000) and the second for claims that U.S. citizens had previously made against France for 20 million francs ($3,750,000).
 

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Rebel - KGC

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8-) I know you ("Scoop") are an expert on Thomas Jefferson; get to the point of the BEALE TREASURE! France lost the war, to the BRITS, hence... Brits would NOT allow "French presence" in Bedford County/Lynchburg, Va. Even when this area was AMERICAN... ALL BRIT/SCOT/IRISH. Germans were stopped at Shenandoah & Page Counties "lines", in the Shenandoah Valley (aka Great Valley of VIRGINIA); French NEVER had a "chance". BTW; Bedford Gen. Society is having a FAIR in September, 2013 for FAMILY SURNAMES research; Come on up and look for your "FRENCH PRESENCE". http:bedfordgensociety.org 8-)
 

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bigscoop

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It all comes down to this;
In 1821 the last of what was to be even "a larger targeted sum" was deposited in secret for ten-years, or "a predetermined length of time", this predetermined period coming to an end in 1832. Question is this - what unknown event/deal/ect., of importance began prior to 1821 and was to be completed prior to 1832? In this unknown lays the answer to the Beale mystery.

A) Why 1832? Why not 1830, 1835, etc.? What was so important/relevant about 1832. Supposedly thirty parties agreed to this term, so what was the objective and why did it have to be completed by 1832?
B) Why was a third party required? Third parties of this nature usually only come into play when a deal has been made between two other parties who aren't fully trusting of each other.
C) What possible event/deal could have possibly been underway that offered reason to contain A & B above?

Thomas Jefferson chose the site for Poplar Forest, it's construction beginning in 1806. Why did he really select the Bedford/Lynchburg/Richmond region? Why did he consider Poplar Forest to be his most valuable and important possession/accomplishment in the years during and after its construction? The answer to this question might very well reside in the very first post of this thread. "The gathering of intelligence."

"Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer."
 

Rebel - KGC

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DJK...? LYNCHBURG, Va. was the FIRST choice for TJ's ACADEMICAL VILLAGE, now known as UVA? YEP! BUT! The VIRGINIA General Assembly chose CHARLOTTESVILLE! "Google" Thomas Jefferson's Academical Village. AND! franklin is CORRECT about Poplar Forest!
 

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bigscoop

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Thomas Jefferson did not chose the site to build Poplar Forest it was land inherited. He chose to build a private retreat on what was over 4,000 acres of land. It was a place to get away from his Presidential life and his plantation at Monticello which itself contained over 5,000 acres. Sorry.

That's not entirely true. Nor is it entirely true that he originally built the place for his daughter, as is often written in general history books/articles.
 

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bigscoop

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Far too much open ended speculation with loose ends that lead directly to the rabbit hole.

A lot of what you see to be speculation is due to a lack of personal investigation, i.e.,....you've just not seen and read all that others have. It is far easier to discount what seems out of place or without cause or purpose VS spending the endless hours/years investigating all of these possibilities first hand. "Rabbit Hole".....I'm 100% certain that it is indeed a rabbit hole for many, and understandably so.
 

Scar

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The election of Jackson over Henry Clay in 1832 was accomplished by the third party the Anti Masons. Nicolas Beedle was a strong supporter of Clay. The banking system of the USA changed greatly because of this election. I have some research I did back in the early 1990's that I will try to find that may help to jar my old brain.
 

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A lot of what you see to be speculation is due to a lack of personal investigation, i.e.,....you've just not seen and read all that others have. It is far easier to discount what seems out of place or without cause or purpose VS spending the endless hours/years investigating all of these possibilities first hand. "Rabbit Hole".....I'm 100% certain that it is indeed a rabbit hole for many, and understandably so.
...So what is this French connection to the Beale treasure?
...And,is Chlory Delancy of Botetourt County claim on Beale's Virginia part of this connection? :dontknow:
 

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bigscoop

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The election of Jackson over Henry Clay in 1832 was accomplished by the third party the Anti Masons. Nicolas Beedle was a strong supporter of Clay. The banking system of the USA changed greatly because of this election. I have some research I did back in the early 1990's that I will try to find that may help to jar my old brain.

1832 - it is possible, considering the terms of the charters and election years that 1832 could have been singled out in or before 1821/22 for some unknown reason, and there is "a lot" of interesting details and connections in this entire mess. From the very get-go the establishment of the Bank of America stirred a political hotbed of constant debate and controversy that even involved the Supreme Court. There were a lot of powerful, wealthy, and influential people connected to this huge banking controversy.
 

Rebel - KGC

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1832 - it is possible, considering the terms of the charters and election years that 1832 could have been singled out in or before 1821/22 for some unknown reason, and there is "a lot" of interesting details and connections in this entire mess. From the very get-go the establishment of the Bank of America stirred a political hotbed of constant debate and controversy that even involved the Supreme Court. There were a lot of powerful, wealthy, and influential people connected to this huge banking controversy.

HA! Lynchburg, VIRGINIA was undergoing a SEVERE financial DEPRESSION in 1817 + years... that is HISTORY!
 

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bigscoop

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I don't know, same thing I said to myself when you brought it up. :laughing7: But I figured I'd post a link that helps explain that whole "financial depression" era you referenced. Or was your "1817 Lynchburg financial depression" post in reference to something else?
 

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the second bank of the USA??

It all comes down to this;
In 1821 the last of what was to be even "a larger targeted sum" was deposited in secret for ten-years, or "a predetermined length of time", this predetermined period coming to an end in 1832. Question is this - what unknown event/deal/ect., of importance began prior to 1821 and was to be completed prior to 1832? In this unknown lays the answer to the Beale mystery.

A) Why 1832? Why not 1830, 1835, etc.? What was so important/relevant about 1832. Supposedly thirty parties agreed to this term, so what was the objective and why did it have to be completed by 1832?
B) Why was a third party required? Third parties of this nature usually only come into play when a deal has been made between two other parties who aren't fully trusting of each other.
C) What possible event/deal could have possibly been underway that offered reason to contain A & B above?

Thomas Jefferson chose the site for Poplar Forest, it's construction beginning in 1806. Why did he really select the Bedford/Lynchburg/Richmond region? Why did he consider Poplar Forest to be his most valuable and important possession/accomplishment in the years during and after its construction? The answer to this question might very well reside in the very first post of this thread. "The gathering of intelligence."

"Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer."
 

Rebel - KGC

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Jun 15, 2007
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I don't know, same thing I said to myself when you brought it up. :laughing7: But I figured I'd post a link that helps explain that whole "financial depression" era you referenced. Or was your "1817 Lynchburg financial depression" post in reference to something else?

Responding to YOU... it is HISTORY in Lynchburg, VIRGINIA!
 

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bigscoop

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It's amazing that every time the Bonaparte's ran into trouble, well, it just seems the same group of people are always there to bail them out.
Prince Napoleon Lucien Charles Murat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oddly, this is the same group of people who negotiated the Louisiana Purchase from who......that's right, the Bonapartes.

Curious thing here - if you were Napoleon, why would you agree to sell the only piece of real estate that you might ever be allowed to step foot in if your struggling campaign failed, which was likely? In the beginning of these negotiations the Bonaparte's and their advisers were firm against the sell of this vital territory, but after Monroe arrived on the scene it was suddenly, "OK. You got a deal." Now considering just how critically important this territory was to Napoleon, what on earth could have possibly persuaded him to sell?
 

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