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ECS

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In reference of the United States and the DOI, in the memoirs Laffite maintains that, "when my brother and I sacrificed all that we possessed"......however, "possessed" doesn't mean own, only that "you were in possession of it."

Again, all of this being echoed by the charges/claims of D'Onis. :thumbsup:
Lafitte's memoirs are and always will be a forgery by John Laflin, and is another example of using one work of fiction to prove another work of fiction as true.
 

ECS

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We know that we have a perfect chronological order between the Adams Onis Treaty signing and ratification dates and the dates of the alleged Bealle deposits, this is all fact. Also as is fact, we know that this treaty contained the same exact ten-year term as that in the narration... All of this is well documented...
Also known as a fact that Ward's grandfather, Major James Beverly Risqué was highly interested in the Adams-Onis Treaty and used his political connections to request an appointment in the Florida Territory.
Even with his connection to Andrew Jackson, it was to no avail, and remained a sore spot for the rest of his life.
Upon his death, Giles Ward received his father-in-laws library which contained all his papers and correspondence, including all that was acquired concerning the Adams-Onis Treaty.
As with the name Thomas Beale who had a duel with Risqué and was used as a character in the job pamphlet, so were the dates of the Adams-Onis which also were important to Ward's grandfather.
 

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bigscoop

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ECS, you're incredible, waiting for you to try to discredit even D'Onis. Which I'm certain you will try. :laughing7:

PS: As I have told you many times in the past, "I care not about debating the origin of the memoirs, all I care about is the accuracy of that information within." And so far, my friend, a great deal of it has to proven to be spot on. :thumbsup: So I could care less who actually penned it. :notworthy:
 

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bigscoop

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Problem is, there is the established presence of wary. :laughing7:

What's that quote you're always quoting, you know, the one from Sherlock, something about whatever remains. :thumbsup: Can't really live by that until "you have eliminated all other possibilities." So you'd better get on it. :laughing7:
 

ECS

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As with all things Beale Papers, there is NO direct connection in the narrative text to Adams-Onis or to Lafitte.
Yes, Thomas Beale of New Orleans came in with and knew Jean Lafitte, but connecting John Laflin's forged Lafitte Memoirs to the Beale Papers is an exercise in helplessly hoping to fit things to support a pet theory.
As Beale researcher Brad Andrews noted:" Believe me, it is a very easy thing to do, forcing the evidence to fit the theory".
 

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bigscoop

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As with all things Beale Papers, there is NO direct connection in the narrative text to Adams-Onis or to Lafitte.
Yes, Thomas Beale of New Orleans came in with and knew Jean Lafitte, but connecting John Laflin's forged Lafitte Memoirs to the Beale Papers is an exercise in helplessly hoping to fit things to support a pet theory.
As Beale researcher Brad Andrews noted:" Believe me, it is a very easy thing to do, forcing the evidence to fit the theory".

Are you listening to yourself Mr. Iron pot? :laughing7: Good lord, man, you have the entire Otey/Buford/ bloodline and Grandpa Risque's fabulous library integrated into a dime novel for parlor entertainment only with no directly connecting evidence whatsoever. A lot of clanging and quacking going on in this pond for forum entertainment only. :laughing7: Too bad D'Onis isn't around to hold debate with you. :occasion14:
 

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franklin

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I wish someone somewhere whether in Colorado, New Mexico, Missouri, Kentucky, Virginia, Louisiana or any other State of the Union could come up one piece of information or document that will verify the Beale Treasure Party traveled to Sante Fe, N.M. There is nothing in the newspapers of these thirty gentlemen making this journey. There is nothing in the Spanish Archives for the time period of their stay in Santé Fe. There is no outcry from the thirty families wondering what happened to their loved ones. The story is pure FICTION.
 

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bigscoop

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I wish someone somewhere whether in Colorado, New Mexico, Missouri, Kentucky, Virginia, Louisiana or any other State of the Union could come up one piece of information or document that will verify the Beale Treasure Party traveled to Sante Fe, N.M. There is nothing in the newspapers of these thirty gentlemen making this journey. There is nothing in the Spanish Archives for the time period of their stay in Santé Fe. There is no outcry from the thirty families wondering what happened to their loved ones. The story is pure FICTION.

Well that conclusion is certainly a reasonable enough possibility, however.....

I think you misunderstand a few things. “To me” the Beale mystery revolves around two different perspectives, the first being that the narration, in some form, is a work of fiction. The second being that the narration was possibly designed around some actual event concerning real wealth.



Obviously, the fiction perspective is indeed the strongest regardless how it was designed or it's possible purpose. And, if it is any form of fiction then there is no need whatsoever to pursue it any further as fiction theories relating to the narration are, as you know, a dime a dozen and far too easy to propose by the simple fact that there is little existing evidence of it being anything else. So why waist one's time trying to solve fiction?


On the other hand, however, the second perspective, that it might be a narration in relation to some other actual event, isn't nearly so easy to propose or to provide, and for obvious reasons. But here's the thing, these second perspectives have to be eliminated before any fiction theory can be fully embraced. So here's the deal, “try as I do, I can't dislodge the theory that I keep tossing at you.” And in fact, the more I try the stronger that theory continues to grow.



My point is this, I don't care if the narration holds some measure of truth or if it is a work of fiction, I just want to know for sure that it is indeed one or the other. As I said a moment ago, it is far easier to establish any form of fiction theory as long as there is nothing else to stand in the way, however, and very clearly, the current second perspective is clearly standing in the way and there exist more then enough evidence to support the notion that men "may have" actually transported the wealth described in the narration. So until this possibility is eliminated then any form of fiction theory, regardless of its nature, can't be fully embraced.



In the current theory we have the same dates, the same wealth, a second publication - regardless how precarious or suspect it might be, that further supports all of it, and we also have the personal testimony and charges of D'Onis that further declares that all of it was indeed taking place. “So this is my personal issue” in all of this Beale conundrum, a theory that despite all efforts to do so, I still can't get off of the table.



If the narration is some form of fiction then we can easily, very easily, construct an endless stream of seemingly reasonable remedies/solutions as to how that narration was formed, what the ciphers contain, and why. But if that narration indeed contains a measure of truth to an actual event, well, not quite so easy to construct a reasonable remedy/solution because we can't be so free with our selective picking and choosing. Instead, this second perspective has to be spot on, dead to rights accurate. Not so with anything proposing fiction, or any form of it, because in this later there is nothing that needs to stand as spot on, dead to rights, accurate. Much, much, much easier and far more convenient when going the fiction route, any form of fiction route. But can that selective fiction be fully embraced? No, not until all other reasonable possibilities are off of the table, and quite clearly, they are not yet off of the table. And in fact, quite the opposite.

But for sure, as Franklin noted, one area that lacks any supporting detail is the absence of any actual evidence of the alleged travels.

PS: And I have no idea why each time I save a post it automatically adds double spacing to all of my paragraphs? :laughing7: :dontknow:
 

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Rebel - KGC

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Well that conclusion is certainly a reasonable enough possibility, however.....

I think you misunderstand a few things. “To me” the Beale mystery revolves around two different perspectives, the first being that the narration, in some form, is a work of fiction. The second being that the narration was possibly designed around some actual event concerning real wealth.



Obviously, the fiction perspective is indeed the strongest regardless how it was designed or it's possible purpose. And, if it is any form of fiction then there is no need whatsoever to pursue it any further as fiction theories relating to the narration are, as you know, a dime a dozen and far too easy to propose by the simple fact that there is little existing evidence of it being anything else. So why waist one's time trying to solve fiction?


On the other hand, however, the second perspective, that it might be a narration in relation to some other actual event, isn't nearly so easy to propose or to provide, and for obvious reasons. But here's the thing, these second perspectives have to be eliminated before any fiction theory can be fully embraced. So here's the deal, “try as I do, I can't dislodge the theory that I keep tossing at you.” And in fact, the more I try the stronger that theory continues to grow.



My point is this, I don't care if the narration holds some measure of truth or if it is a work of fiction, I just want to know for sure that it is indeed one or the other. As I said a moment ago, it is far easier to establish any form of fiction theory as long as there is nothing else to stand in the way, however, and very clearly, the current second perspective is clearly standing in the way and there exist more then enough evidence to support the notion that men "may have" actually transported the wealth described in the narration. So until this possibility is eliminated then any form of fiction theory, regardless of its nature, can't be fully embraced.



In the current theory we have the same dates, the same wealth, a second publication - regardless how precarious or suspect it might be, that further supports all of it, and we also have the personal testimony and charges of D'Onis that further declares that all of it was indeed taking place. “So this is my personal issue” in all of this Beale conundrum, a theory that despite all efforts to do so, I still can't get off of the table.



If the narration is some form of fiction then we can easily, very easily, construct an endless stream of seemingly reasonable remedies/solutions as to how that narration was formed, what the ciphers contain, and why. But if that narration indeed contains a measure of truth to an actual event, well, not quite so easy to construct a reasonable remedy/solution because we can't be so free with our selective picking and choosing. Instead, this second perspective has to be spot on, dead to rights accurate. Not so with anything proposing fiction, or any form of it, because in this later there is nothing that needs to stand as spot on, dead to rights, accurate. Much, much, much easier and far more convenient when going the fiction route, any form of fiction route. But can that selective fiction be fully embraced? No, not until all other reasonable possibilities are off of the table, and quite clearly, they are not yet off of the table. And in fact, quite the opposite.

But for sure, as Franklin noted, one area that lacks any supporting detail is the absence of any actual evidence of the alleged travels.

PS: And I have no idea why each time I save a post it automatically adds double spacing to all of my paragraphs? :laughing7: :dontknow:
Blame it on the NSA; THEY are trying to read "between the lines", er... PARAGRAPHS. Purchur, you know... HEH!
 

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Double spacing just shows your broad minded.

You have made several post that brings a shade of doubt about the Beale story actually happened. The part about how the author laid out the cipher pages according to their lengths being one of them. If the author actually numbered them according to length 1,2 & 3 then there would have only been three sheets of cipher papers. Because if there had been two or three pages to each cipher then the pages would have already been numbered.

Then if the author numbered the pages how did he "luck" up and decipher C2 first and within the broken cipher it mentions C1 as having the exact locality of the vault and C3 the names and addresses of all his associates. This would make TJB and the author receiving the papers from Robert Morris, one and the same.

Then there is the mistake in the translating of C2 that the author made when he placed "thousands" in the decipherment of C2 when you do the decipherment yourself it comes out "hundreds" instead of "thousands"

Then if you continue on with the parlor game and you actually try to decipher C1 to locate the treasure you will find the "gillgolly" strings. Again a clear laugh telling you to stop it is only a game.

The author used an old history book copyrighted in 1878 to encrypt and to decipher C2 clearly shows the cipher papers made after 1878 and the pamphlet had copies printed in 1883 because they burned at the printing office during the great fire of Lynchburg in 1883.

If there is a treasure to be found I wish someone would find it. Myself I believe the treasure is in the mind of the author that was able to out-wit so many intelligent people that thought they were actually going to find a treasure. Sure was a slick author.
 

ECS

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... Good lord, man, you have the entire Otey/Buford/ bloodline and Grandpa Risque's fabulous library integrated into a dime novel for parlor entertainment only with no directly connecting evidence whatsoever...
Bigscoop, you realize that even it is a chain of circumstantial evidence, this Risqué extended blooding and his library and personal papers that ended up with grandson James Beverly Ward, it is a strong chain with many links.
From James Beverly Risque's duel with Thomas Beale to Ward's great uncle, John Pickrell Risqué being killed while inspecting gold mines in Arizona and waiting for Ward's wife's Uncle and aunt, the Bufords who own the tavern in the story to pass away before applying for copyright, it all comes back to this family 'connexion"- not to d'Onis, Lafitte, Bonapart, Girard, Patterson, or an Alderman in 1884 Jackson Ward, Richmond.
That is all left field speculation fitting facts to fit ones theory.
You my friend, while presenting interesting and sometimes forgotten history, have forced many facts into many theories, all with the same resolve- no "connexion" made.
 

ECS

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...
If there is a treasure to be found I wish someone would find it. Myself I believe the treasure is in the mind of the author that was able to out-wit so many intelligent people that thought they were actually going to find a treasure. Sure was a slick author.
That is the brilliance of the Beale Papers. The information in the narrative text is vague enough to lead the unwary reader on a journey of possibilities, all with the hope of solving those two ciphers and finding that treasure.
As has been noted many times on these threads, all one has to do is pick a date, a name, a location mentioned in the job pamphlet, and then construct a theory around that selection.
The bottom line to all of this is:
The 1885 BEALE PAPERS is true as written, or is a nothing more than a fictional dime novel with play along ciphers.
When one searches for alternate events behind the Beale story, that is a tacit admission that the Beale story as presented is a work of fiction.
 

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Bigscoop, you realize that even it is a chain of circumstantial evidence, this Risqué extended blooding and his library and personal papers that ended up with grandson James Beverly Ward, it is a strong chain with many links.
From James Beverly Risque's duel with Thomas Beale to Ward's great uncle, John Pickrell Risqué being killed while inspecting gold mines in Arizona and waiting for Ward's wife's Uncle and aunt, the Bufords who own the tavern in the story to pass away before applying for copyright, it all comes back to this family 'connexion"- not to d'Onis, Lafitte, Bonapart, Girard, Patterson, or an Alderman in 1884 Jackson Ward, Richmond.
That is all left field speculation fitting facts to fit ones theory.
You my friend, while presenting interesting and sometimes forgotten history, have forced many facts into many theories, all with the same resolve- no "connexion" made.

Clark you keep up with all this information and do not show one shred of proof in a documented form . A debate is won only by showing proof in documentation and in that you are a failure !
 

TN_Guest1523

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Double spacing just shows your broad minded.

You have made several post that brings a shade of doubt about the Beale story actually happened. The part about how the author laid out the cipher pages according to their lengths being one of them. If the author actually numbered them according to length 1,2 & 3 then there would have only been three sheets of cipher papers. Because if there had been two or three pages to each cipher then the pages would have already been numbered.

Then if the author numbered the pages how did he "luck" up and decipher C2 first and within the broken cipher it mentions C1 as having the exact locality of the vault and C3 the names and addresses of all his associates. This would make TJB and the author receiving the papers from Robert Morris, one and the same.

Then there is the mistake in the translating of C2 that the author made when he placed "thousands" in the decipherment of C2 when you do the decipherment yourself it comes out "hundreds" instead of "thousands"

Then if you continue on with the parlor game and you actually try to decipher C1 to locate the treasure you will find the "gillgolly" strings. Again a clear laugh telling you to stop it is only a game.

The author used an old history book copyrighted in 1878 to encrypt and to decipher C2 clearly shows the cipher papers made after 1878 and the pamphlet had copies printed in 1883 because they burned at the printing office during the great fire of Lynchburg in 1883.

If there is a treasure to be found I wish someone would find it. Myself I believe the treasure is in the mind of the author that was able to out-wit so many intelligent people that thought they were actually going to find a treasure. Sure was a slick author.

All I see is a failure !
 

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Good that is all I see on your side also.
 

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Double spacing just shows your broad minded.

You have made several post that brings a shade of doubt about the Beale story actually happened. The part about how the author laid out the cipher pages according to their lengths being one of them. If the author actually numbered them according to length 1,2 & 3 then there would have only been three sheets of cipher papers. Because if there had been two or three pages to each cipher then the pages would have already been numbered.

Then if the author numbered the pages how did he "luck" up and decipher C2 first and within the broken cipher it mentions C1 as having the exact locality of the vault and C3 the names and addresses of all his associates. This would make TJB and the author receiving the papers from Robert Morris, one and the same.

Then there is the mistake in the translating of C2 that the author made when he placed "thousands" in the decipherment of C2 when you do the decipherment yourself it comes out "hundreds" instead of "thousands"

Then if you continue on with the parlor game and you actually try to decipher C1 to locate the treasure you will find the "gillgolly" strings. Again a clear laugh telling you to stop it is only a game.

The author used an old history book copyrighted in 1878 to encrypt and to decipher C2 clearly shows the cipher papers made after 1878 and the pamphlet had copies printed in 1883 because they burned at the printing office during the great fire of Lynchburg in 1883.

If there is a treasure to be found I wish someone would find it. Myself I believe the treasure is in the mind of the author that was able to out-wit so many intelligent people that thought they were actually going to find a treasure. Sure was a slick author.

You are correct Franklin, I have been both research advocate for and against the Beale narration in true unbiased fashion, having always maintained that I could care less which it is, i.e., some measure of truth or fiction, I just want to know for sure which one. Unfortunately, inaccuracies and discrepancies don't render the entire narration total fiction and without revealing purpose if there exist reasons for those required inaccuracies and discrepancies. No doubt the ciphers have been altered and arranged simply for the presentation, and no doubt that the grand adventure as described never took place and that the alleged silver couldn't have come from a mine in the detailed region. However, that wealth could have come from somewhere else and the story simply penned with a very limited and specific audience in mind. So, this possibility too, has to be investigated fairly along with all of the other reasonable possibilities before one can conclude and embrace the fiction theory, regardless which route of fiction one desires to believe. In my mind, anyway, this is the only way to conduct unbiased and fair research.

Just recently I disclosed the details in the narration regarding the discrepancies in the alleged Morriss testimony by providing details in the narration that conclusively establish that Morriss knew at least some of the men in the party, both before and after Beale's visits. This is just more proof that his entire detailed testimony is pure BS and that the letters are completely bogus in nature. All of this equally supporting the fiction theory "if" these deceptions were not required due to something of a sensitive nature? So again, unbiased, and just looking for a final and conclusive remedy.
 

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franklin

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You looking in the mirror again or just the monitor ? Just too much Old Bunny eh !

Nothing is never to much for me, I can handle it and more. The question is how long do you think people are going to keep believing you without any proof. What is your angle? If you want to prove you have out smarted the NSA and all the intelligent people in the world. Take it to the NSA ----validate and then you can boast until then you are just wind whistling in the tree tops.
 

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