Buried Military Tank

[EDDE]

The military loved to just bulldoze dirt over ordinance as a way of cheap disposal (a practice that is still done today in war zones).

absolutely wrong

 

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[joe]

The military loved to just bulldoze dirt over ordinance as a way of cheap disposal (a practice that is still done today in war zones).

absolutely wrong

SORRY SIR THE PICTURE ON THE GLASS BOMB IS NOT THE ONE WE RECOVER(I GET THAT FROM THE WEBSITE)
THE 2 WAS TIED TOGETHER ON THE NECK OF THE THE GLASS,AND THE MATERIALS USE TO TIED THE 2 WAS NOT
VERY CLEAR(THE TIME THOSE THINGS WERE RECOVER I STILL DONT HAVE CAMERA TO TAKE PICTURE OUT OF IT)
BUT THE FIGURE OF THE THE bottles IS THE SAME TO THE POST, AND IT WAS AT THE TOP OF THE TANK COVER,IT WAS FOUND ON MY COUSIN PLACE WHO LIVES NEAR THE BEACH.(WE ALSO RECOVER LOTS OF AMMUNITION BOXES WIT DIFF KINDS OF BULLETS ON THAT PLACEs )the place also have the flagpole of the japanese and it was told
that the place was a former military camp of the japanese army

 

[sle]

Backgrounder

Late 1940’s – The area was settled/occupied by the family of the landowner today as their home lot. Since the area was relatively flat, no earth moving or filling in the area was done ever since they made it their home lot.

Early 1970’s – 2 of the sons (in their teens at that time) were tasked to dig a hole to be used as pit for their toilet. At some deepness, they struck something that looks like a pipe. Out of curiosity, they dug further until reaching the base where the “pipe” was attached. Digging much further, they now realized that they were digging a tank because the base where the “pipe” was attached looked like a turret which was resting on the metal floor which now looked like the roof of the tank, just like what they saw in the movies. Fearing that it might explode, the mother ordered them to stop their “operation” and to cover it back. They complied.

At around that time, their neighbor cut the big tree on their backyard to give way to the house to be constructed.

Early 1980’s – A Japanese national was asking in the neighborhood about the big tree or at least the location where it once was. According to his interpreter, who was with him, the man was looking for the tree because 50 meters to the east of the tree was the site of his buried relative and he wants to bring the remains back to Japan. Nobody told him where it was… I don’t know why they did not tell him the location --- but the said distance to the east of the tree was the site of the topic here.

I heard that story long before but paid not much attention to it thinking it was only made out of fantasy until I finally heard it first hand from one of the boys who dug it before, who happened to be one of my crews in my previous projects. He wanted me to dig it, but I have no knowledge or experience about tanks, hence I threw it here hoping that somebody who knew something about this thing will help.

 

[Zobex]

We have cut open several bank safes, one WF safe but that money was not mine and the owners didn't give me more that $2,000 for opening for them and bypassing the cyanide gas. They were cheap ass. It is very difficult to cut open an armored tank. Very difficult with a gas torch. What you need is a "burning bar" torch and that would require a very large air compressor to run the torch.

I would be interested in the tank itself if you decide to open it up and look inside. Provided there is a way to get a truck and trailer into the site to carry out the tank. If you do cut it open don't do a sloppy job of it for it would require more work to fix to put on display. You will have to cut through several inches of harden steel. We once cut open an old bank vault that had 12 inches of reinforced cement on the outside, then 3 inch of single sheet heat treated steel, a 6 inch poison gas inner chamber then a second layer of 3 inch thick single sheet harden steel. Took us a very long time as we had to use a LPG cutting torch as there is no acetylene on that island to buy.

If you would like to deal in the tank you can send me a private message through this forum.

Zobex

 

[Scribe]

absolutely wrong
If you have other info I'm happy to listen, but the military will bury munitions. I say this because in Iraq we had a site that we were not to dig more then three feet down due to unexploded ordinance and it was not a unique situation. I've also run into a similar situation in Kosovo (although in that case it was the accidental burying of a landmine that didn't blow). Either case whenever you are talking about digging up buried military items there is a risk of unexploded ordinance especially on a battlefield.

 

[starsplitter]

Scribe:

Ya know... all this dig up and cut up the tank business, it sorta reminded me of an experience I had in the Army decades ago.

I jump out of a C-130, float down, and land (as in do the whole feet together and roll to the ground landing bit). Less than a foot from my head, with a weed growing up through the tailfins, was an old rusty mortar round (I figure a 60mm or thereabouts). I gingerly rolled away, gathered up my chute and chop chopped outa there thanking the saints that I did not land on the #&^$(#*&)##.

I just don't get these guys who are so hot to take a blowtorch to a 50 or 60 year old tank - especially when one considers it was buried by a bunch of pissed off samurai.

Starsplitter

 

[Zobex]

absolutely wrong
If you have other info I'm happy to listen, but the military will bury munitions. I say this because in Iraq we had a site that we were not to dig more then three feet down due to unexploded ordinance and it was not a unique situation. I've also run into a similar situation in Kosovo (although in that case it was the accidental burying of a landmine that didn't blow). Either case whenever you are talking about digging up buried military items there is a risk of unexploded ordinance especially on a battlefield.

One reason that the USG or most any other military will, cover over stock piles or gathered munitions into one place is to one, secure it from the "enemy" but also to bury it for temporary. Why bury it?? Because if it is in the open it is suitable to theft or attack by the enemy. If you ever saw an open pit of ammo go off you would know why it gets covered in dirt real fast. But as you expect, once it is covered it often gets ignored in the future till it is found later by accident.

In Iraq that has been a problem in the past where "secured" open deposits of ammo have been stolen or attacked and set off by the enemy.

Over 20 years ago my Dad had a contract with the USG and Lebanon Gov to cut up old military equipment from the war there. You would even find live rounds loaded in other wise abandon artillery that was marked for cutting up for scrap. That is where I learned how hard it is to cut up a tank. Standing in direct sun at 90 degrees running a burning bar. Soon enough the whole tank gets so hot you can't stand on it.

I've had a wide but not profitable range of experiences in my life.

Zobex

 

[Scribe]

Zobex

That was the reason they gave us in Iraq for the buried munitions. There was just so much of it there was no way for the disposal teams to keep up.
You sound like you've worked around the stuff quite a bit so I will assume you know what you're doing but it sounds like a hard living to me.

Starsplitter

Ain't it funny how those things just turn up! You can have 50 acres to land in and you end up nose to tail with an unexploded mortar round!
Glad you didn't decide to play with it like some guys. There is that percentage of the military population that seem convinced that if it didn't blow up the first time then it must be a safe toy for them to play with. Hate those guys....

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

Why would you need to use a burner bar on the top of the tank when all the armor is thinner on the underside? Didn't most tanks have a hatch underneath? Why not see if that is still open? Most also had a top hatch too. exanimo, siegfried schlagrule

 

[Zobex]

Zobex

That was the reason they gave us in Iraq for the buried munitions. There was just so much of it there was no way for the disposal teams to keep up.
You sound like you've worked around the stuff quite a bit so I will assume you know what you're doing but it sounds like a hard living to me.

Starsplitter

Ain't it funny how those things just turn up! You can have 50 acres to land in and you end up nose to tail with an unexploded mortar round!
Glad you didn't decide to play with it like some guys. There is that percentage of the military population that seem convinced that if it didn't blow up the first time then it must be a safe toy for them to play with. Hate those guys....

It is still somewhat common for Filipino to find a round some place and then sell it for scrap metal. This stuff is 60 years old and still dry inside. On time we were clearing out a tunnel and I went to town for supplies. When I returned there were the Manobo tribals walking around with Jap heavy machine gun ammo hanging from their neck on rattan strings. They had found a box in the tunnel and were making talismans out of it. One found a 3inch shell and took it to town to sell and cut open while I was gone. He never came back nor was ever herd from again. We just bury it again and put a rock on top of it.

Zobex

 

[Zobex]

Why would you need to use a burner bar on the top of the tank when all the armor is thinner on the underside? Didn't most tanks have a hatch underneath? Why not see if that is still open? Most also had a top hatch too. exanimo, siegfried schlagrule

Most Jap tanks, like the Type 97's were of rivet construction. Armor is from 1-3 inch thick heat treated iron/carbon steel pending where you cut. (Iron-carbon heat treated steel is brittle and very hard to drill. American tanks were iron-nickel steel and more malleable so will bend instead of shatter.) If you cut near the bottom you risk the chance of cutting into an ammo cache. Better to cut from the top. Also, the entire box will be filled with fumes from fuel and possibly ammo outgassing. First you must sparkless drill the tank and the use compressed air to purge the tank inside. Then must pump it full of CO2 or Carbonmonoxide. Then say a prayer and cut it open through one of the top armored hatches or near the front window port.

Been there and done that.

If there is live ammo in a tank and if it goes off while you are cutting. You will never be found again. Nothing.


Zobex

 

[starsplitter]

Zobex:

It is funny... how people sometimes react to things that blow up. Down the road at the maintenance battlalion three guys found a dud LAW in a dumpster. Of course, they went about trying to dislodge it from the tube. Well, you can imagine how the story ends.

Lose LAW's were out there. Some guys supposedly ripped right off the range just by switching out the tubes (they counted empty tubes to keep track of what was expended).

Anyways dude, you know your're crazy, right? Good luck - I'll light a candle for ya.

Starsplitter

 

[Zobex]

Zobex:

It is funny... how people sometimes react to things that blow up. Down the road at the maintenance battlalion three guys found a dud LAW in a dumpster. Of course, they went about trying to dislodge it from the tube. Well, you can imagine how the story ends.

Lose LAW's were out there. Some guys supposedly ripped right off the range just by switching out the tubes (they counted empty tubes to keep track of what was expended).

Anyways dude, you know your're crazy, right? Good luck - I'll light a candle for ya.

Starsplitter

Ha Ha, Law's, those are Mega Fun. We got a spare once and fired it at a giant roll around dumpster. That thing opened up like it was hit with a giant cherry bomb in the worlds biggest mail box. It was like modern art.

We used to keep one shoved under the front seat of the truck. The best defense for someone following you. Better than a RPG that is too long to handle in a tight spot.

What kind of moron would put a dud in the trash. Don't they know trash gets burned or ground up for recycling. Think of the guy using an end loader and pushing around a burning pile of trash when that DUD goes off.

Zobex

 

[sle]

thank you guys for your thoughts. I now believed that there is something in there, besides the unexploded ammo. It could be that this tank was used, aside from other mode of transport, to transfer the "valuables" to be buried by the JIA. It could be that this tank was on its "last trip" and the crew decided to keep the valuables for themselves. They have to hide everything --- including the tank, that explained the Japanese national who had been around in the 80's, so is the tree marker as mentioned before.

 

[Zobex]

Zobex

That was the reason they gave us in Iraq for the buried munitions. There was just so much of it there was no way for the disposal teams to keep up.
You sound like you've worked around the stuff quite a bit so I will assume you know what you're doing but it sounds like a hard living to me.

Starsplitter

Ain't it funny how those things just turn up! You can have 50 acres to land in and you end up nose to tail with an unexploded mortar round!
Glad you didn't decide to play with it like some guys. There is that percentage of the military population that seem convinced that if it didn't blow up the first time then it must be a safe toy for them to play with. Hate those guys....

The thing about treasure hunting Philippine style after the Japs is that where ever you find treasure it is almost guaranteed you will find explosives. Either ammo or some form of bomb. While we have never first hand found a torpedo we have found many antisubmarine depth charges. AND those most case are setting on top of a land mine or aerial bomb with a rigged fuse. It's so now it is easy for us to deactivate a depth charge as they are only 50 gal steel drums filled with black powder. (Sorry, won't post here how to do it, trade secret.)

I never worry over fresh explosives or ammo, it is the old stale ones and worse the DUD's that kill you. I REALLY hate "hang fires" though you are taught to try and refire one by pulling it and rotating it.

Zobex

 

[starsplitter]

Zobex:

Valuables in a tank? I must defer to your personal experience, but... the Japanese tanks that I've seen in pictures look small. What could be hidden in them besides gems or some specie? I suppose you could fit a significant amount of valuable material in them, but if they buried trucks too Just curious here.

Also, a thought or two: if the tank was buried simply for defensive purposes, wouldn't there be a defensive line discernable? In other words, unless a tank was plugging up a very narrow line that required little depth/bredth, one would think there'd be more (or some other evidence) of a line strung along a ridgeline or other defensible position(s). This may be a tip off to the purpose of the vehicle.

The other thing: it would require more than one tank crew to bury a tank in a timely manner (unless they leveraged some sort of a terrain feature). I mean, unless it was officially sanctioned, wouldn't it be difficult for a small crew of guys to swipe a treasure and not be noticed? When I was in the Army they tended to keep tabs on you. If you were missing, your squad leader, SGT, or LT would know.

So, baring the above, unless you had some soldiers who got lost during a retreat and buried the tank at their own initiative (I don't know if the Jap. soldier were permitted a sense of initiative), it seems to me to be an aberation worthy of investigation.

This is interesting. Good luck and be careful.

Starsplitter

 

[Zobex]

Zobex:

Valuables in a tank? I must defer to your personal experience, but... the Japanese tanks that I've seen in pictures look small. What could be hidden in them besides gems or some specie? I suppose you could fit a significant amount of valuable material in them, but if they buried trucks too Just curious here.

Also, a thought or two: if the tank was buried simply for defensive purposes, wouldn't there be a defensive line discernable? In other words, unless a tank was plugging up a very narrow line that required little depth/bredth, one would think there'd be more (or some other evidence) of a line strung along a ridgeline or other defensible position(s). This may be a tip off to the purpose of the vehicle.

The other thing: it would require more than one tank crew to bury a tank in a timely manner (unless they leveraged some sort of a terrain feature). I mean, unless it was officially sanctioned, wouldn't it be difficult for a small crew of guys to swipe a treasure and not be noticed? When I was in the Army they tended to keep tabs on you. If you were missing, your squad leader, SGT, or LT would know.

So, baring the above, unless you had some soldiers who got lost during a retreat and buried the tank at their own initiative (I don't know if the Jap. soldier were permitted a sense of initiative), it seems to me to be an aberation worthy of investigation.

This is interesting. Good luck and be careful.

Starsplitter

The Japanese tank development was interesting, from WW1 the Japanese originally purchased some British Post WW1 Mark4 tanks for military trials along with some other foreign tanks for analysis. The Japanese finally formed their first Tank Corp in 1925. At that point there were only 16 tanks in Japan. Then there was big argument in the IJA (Imperial Japanese Army) that Japan should develop it's own tanks and not import foreign ones. General Suzuki, the chief of the IJA Technical Bureau finally forced through the policy of developing their own tanks, summer of 1925. Their first tank, 1926 weighed 18 tons, worked well but too slow and heavy for rough terrain, like in China. So the next one, Type 89 Light Tank, weighed less than 10 tons. This worked well in China for fast light infantry and cavalry support, armed with a small howitzer and light machine gun.

Jumping forward past several more models, came the Ho-Go Type 95 Light Tank, the highest number produced. Jumping forward again to the Chi-Ha Type 97 Medium Tank. By now the IJA had gone to diesel tanks as they found in the China battles that the Chinese using Russian diesel tanks were not burning like the gasoline Jap tanks.

In the Philippines you will most commonly find the Type 95 and Type 97 tanks. One thing more, these tanks were also designed to be used for high risk transport and were designed with rear entrance for access. They could transport ammo, high ranking military and other supplies.

What does that mean. They can also transport war booty.

In the case of this tank in question. It is found near the shore line. It is at the site of a former IJA base. Non spent ammo was buried in the same site. The tank turret top is buried they say 8feet from the surface. It setting flat not on end or side.

My interpretation is this. When pulling out or retreating from US Invasion late 1944-45 the tank was driven into a ramped down in pit, filled with valuables. Locked from the inside and then covered up. The tank became a bank vault that is very difficult to get into. For local Filipinos of 1945 they could not cut it open. NOW, I interpret you would find inside it at least one dead Jap. His orders would be to go inside and lock all hatches from the inside, then kill himself. This is a common practice in treasure sites. Further inside it will be rigged where a box of treasure may be setting on top of a land mine. The land mine would be the size of say 12" diameter and 6" thick. Also any box's would also contain a ringer that would have a code marker on it. We have also seen just loose bars in a stacked pyramid in which one of the bars covers over a booby trap. I suspect the two loose bottles on top contained some form of poison that was placed in the tank before the lid was closed. Possibly curare or such. The purpose of leaving the bottles on top would be a reminder to those who come later of what to expect inside when the IJA came to collect it later.

Very close treasure to retrieve but extremely dangerous. Unless you have the proper tools and know how, you will just get yourself killed and make a very big hole in the ground when it blows up !!!!

Simple but VERY effective. Wish I had found it, it would be fun to get past all the traps just to see what is inside. My MOM is 81 years old now and she still tells me " It was curiosity that killed the Cat!! " Well Mom, this Cat is still alive.


Zobex the Cat

 

[Zobex]

We used to have similar glass "bombs" at a factory I worked at. About 6" in diameter. As I remember they held a carbon tetrachloride solution to put out flames on wood/paper fires. Also esphixiate anyone nearby so they were pulled.

That's exactly what it is, Charlie. It is a glass Fire Grenade (fire extinguisher)

http://www.antiquebottles.com/firegrenade/

It is a mold formed glass bottle with a cork type neck. Did it ever occur to you that the bottle manufacture did not care to what use his products were used?? A Molotov is often a beer or wine bottle filled with gasoline and a rag wick. Did you know in your finite knowledge that the Japanese produced and cataloged in their official weapons listing, Molotov flame devices and they used production line bottles !!

Would it be difficult to perceive that a production line product may be utilized for more than one purpose? Particularly in a battle theatre, may have been re utilized for more than one purpose

If it were at the time found, still a fire retarding device, why would the IJA leave two fire retarding devices on the turret top of a tank and then bury the whole mess under 8 feet of dirt. As a signal, marker, code, reminder ??

You have 2 ears, 2 eyes and 1 mouth. That is a 4 to 1 ratio. Ever wonder why God did that?

Zobex

 

[Zobex]

If it were at the time found, still a fire retarding device, why would the IJA leave two fire retarding devices on the turret top of a tank and then bury the whole mess under 8 feet of dirt. As a signal, marker, code, reminder ??

So far the "Buried Military Tank" is just a fantasy and the figment of somebodies imagination. A recent photograph of the Tank would be helpful, not just a picture of some feet

SWR, what is this, Short Witted Response ? You never seem to contribute anything of value or relevant to your own experiences or activities. You post on many boards of this forum but never a contribution. There is nothing wrong with being an Ignoramus. We are all born ignorant at birth. But, normal people strive to learn, to educate themselves and develop in a constrictive, socially appropriate fashion. You act like a disruptive 5 year old at the family dinner table. That type of behavior may be accepted in your early youth but you are far beyond that. Such a character trait must be overcome. Sadly for some few they never grow out of it.

As we grow, we often are measured. This is a way in which not only others but we ourselves are able to understand our growth or lack there of. In school the most common way in which we are “measured” and represented is in the statistical fashion graphically depicted in the traditional “Bell Curve”. By it’s nature the majority of the pool being measured are found statistically in the greater center of the Bell Curve. That is where the majority or average is found. By it’s very nature, the curve is terminated in the few which exceed on one end and those who fall short on the other. You fall short in your contributions. Why that is, is only known to you. ‘MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.’

In the future please exercise self discipline. If you have nothing of value to offer then be still and learn from those who do.


Zobex

 

[starsplitter]

Zobex:

I find your strand much more engaging than the "Yamashita's Treasure." When the time comes, post some pics. In the meantime, just don't blow yourself up.