PennGrove Park Off Limits

[Patriots]

The grounds keeper reported to me he has had to close the park to Metal Detectors due to two who detected for an entire day and did not cover a single hole in the ground. Several Metal Detecting Clubs have used the location in the past, looks like two less than honorable Md'er's have decided to screw up the location for the rest of us.

 

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[austin]

Maybe you and the clubs should offer to fill in those holes so the grounds keeper won't have to.

 

[Patriots]

This happened in the last several months. Obviously I have filled holes that could be dangerous in the past in parks, why wouldn't you? You have the equipment to do so. The point is you can't always take and not give back. I always leave the parks with at least one trash bag of trash and take everything I dig whether good or bad. It finds a proper home. I do my part and paid attention to the many threads of maintaining relations as a MD'er. Obviously some in the hobby could care less.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

You're talking about a park in Penngrove, south of Santa Rosa, right ?

2 observations about this groundskeeper's report to you:

a) Do you know if this pronouncement is anywhere in actual print ? Ie.: a formal new park rule, or law, or whatever ? Or more like a policy type thing, where it's lumped in with catch-all verbage about "deface" and "alter" minutia ?

b) I have had many such encounters, like the one you describe, by various person's of authority. Like a gardener, cop, librarian, or whomever. Eg.: someone walks up and says "you can't do that". And they might even say (if you asked "why?") that it was d/t "someone who left holes". Or simply "because of holes" (without reference to an actual instance of someone actually having left a hole). However, delving deeper, it turns out it's more of an on-the-spot judgement (because, let's face it, a man with a detector has a "connotation", doh!). And that perhaps there no actual law or rule that specifically said such a thing (barring other ancillary things that could be morphed.

I do not consider cases of (b) above to be construed as a "new rule" . In the next post, I will give 2 examples of this.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

True story #1, similar to Patriot's:

There is a park in my city that has been detected since as far back as the 1960s. Then heavily in the late 1970s and early '80s silver rush era It is the oldest park in our city, and has given up countless hundreds of silver coins. At present, it's pretty hard to get silver from there, of course, but I sometimes like to still go there to test my skills, or put a new machine through some paces, or see how well a visiting turf-ace friend can do, etc..

One day, about 15 yrs. ago, an out of town turf-ace friend was visiting. I took him there, so he could teach me some tricks with the explorer, and to see how his skills would do in this heavily worked park. It was about 4:45 pm, when a park worker drove his little utility cart thing up to us.

Conversation went like this:

"You can't be doing that here. It's not allowed".

I said "really? since when? I've detected this park for years".

He answered: "It's a new thing. My boss told us to B.O.L. for any md'rs, and usher them away. So I'm just letting you know".

So I said: "Uh, hmmm, What caused this new thing ?"

He said: "The boss said some guy was leaving holes at some one of the city's parks"

By this time, my friend had already bagged an IH, an early merc, and several teens wheaties. So we were "on a roll", and ... were dismayed at having to leave. So when my friend heard the "holes" line-of-logic, he said to the groundskeeper:

Friend said: "Look around this area. We've been here for over an hour. And retrieved several old coins. Can you find a single spot where you can tell we've even been ?"

The park worker looked around and said: "Well, I'm not saying it was you at fault. I'm only passing on what I was told. Then he said: "When I get off work, what I don't see doesn't bother me".

My friend quickly chimed in: "Great, what time do you get off work. The guy answered: "5pm".

----------------------------------------------------------



My friend and I looked at our watches. It was 4:50pm. We thanked him, said our goodbyes, and the fellow went back to work. My buddy and I sat down at a picnic table and just chatted and just chatted for a bit. Off in the distance, we could see the worker putting away his tools and equipment for the day in the maintenance shed. He locks it up, gets in his city truck, and drives off for the day. Whereupon my friend and I resumed md'ing, no problem.

That was 15 yrs. ago. I have detected here many times since then, and never had any other encounter. Nor is it anything that's actually in city code. So all I'm saying, is that any singular particular "scram" does not always necessarily constitute a new "law" or "rule". Sometimes they can just be flukes, of a single person's opinion. Perhaps it was a cop responding to a miss-lookie-lou griper (and now feels the need to "justify his just having been called over").Sure we should all use proper discretion. I'm not saying to throw-caution to the wind, be defiant, etc.... Of course you give lip service. But sometimes it just means to give a park a "rest" for a while (and sure, no more "club hunts" there). Sometimes it just means "avoid that one individual"I can give multiple other examples of this, where, .... if an isolated "scram" meant "such & such place is now off-limits" then there'd be SCORES of parks, beaches, etc.... where you can currently hunt to your heart's content, would summarily be off-limits. Why? Because perhaps 10 or 20 yrs. ago, "Joe Blow ran into an irate archie" (or gardener, or cop, or ... whomever)

 

[stefen]

This can always be nipped in the bud prior to visiting a park.

When approached by a city employee, reach into your pocket and extract a note paper and say that you contacted (quote name and position) on (this date) and was given an OK to MD this park. And tell him or her to ( call this) number and verify...

Even if the note was faked, they'd probably walk away. Best to use a known staff members name...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... When approached by a city employee, reach into your pocket and extract a note paper and say that you contacted (quote name and position) on (this date) and was given an OK to MD this park. And tell him or her to ( call this) number and verify....

Stefen, I won't address faked note part of it (which would, btw, probably work great in a big city, where .... some rank & file would not question it, if he heard his dept. head's name being cited, and being on a "piece of paper you just pulled out of your pocket"). Doh! I'm not even going there.

But just in general, let's go with the legitimate "permission from city hall" approach to "deflect busy-bodies":

a) you are risking a "no", when no such specific rule exists that truly says that. Ok, then your 2x as bad off now

b) even if it were true that you could get such a name to drop (even in actual written signed form), there is NO SHORTAGE of md'rs who have done JUST THAT. Only to have it fail miserably and do no good. Here's how it works: The md'rs proudly whips out the piece of paper to show the busy body. Fully expecting them to slink away embarassed for daring to have asked. Right ? But neeeeoooohhhh: The griper gets on his cellphone, calls down to city hall, and says " ... but he's tearing the place up!". Which of course isn't true. Then guess what happens to your "permission" ? It is promptly revoked and you are reprimanded for getting permission under false pretenses, being less-than-honest, etc... Because you failed to mention "holes", "dig", "remove/take", etc.... (whatever it was that the busy-body didn't like).

So, just saying, that is not the solve-all that it appears to be.

 

[Patriots]

This is the first time I have been approached in a negative manner. I always made sure to check the rules on the web or simply start a conversation with the grounds crew if they are on the property during the morning. I let them know I will pick up trash and fill in the holes if they ask. All the people have I encountered have been more interested in the machine and what it sounds like or simply how do I know what's a good target. The park is an old location but not much remains from the early days...Club Hunts and the welcoming attitude has ensured it's a marked spot for MD'ing. The only reason I did not approach before hunting is the standing use by individuals and clubs already. At the end of the day I will avoid the site, I don't feel like getting into it. It's just unfortunate.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I said I'd give 2 examples of the "scram" psychology, so here's the 2nd one:

When I got into this hobby, in about 1976, at 14 yrs. old, it was d/t a Jr. high school chum, who was already into it . His older brothers had been md'ing since the mid 1960s. One day in about 1976, this friend and I were getting a ride from his dad to go fishing in a lake, that is near a city 30 miles from our city. On the way there, we passed through this neighboring town, my Jr. high school chum pointed at an elementary school and said "they don't allow detecting anywhere in this city". And "it's illegal", etc...

Since this guy was my mentor, I had no reason to question him (what did I know? I was just a dumb kid, haha).

Fast forward to now I'm a senior in High school, in 1980. By now a club had been formed in our town, and I had made many new friends detecting. A couple of these adults I hung around with, one day, started coming into the club meetings with nice silver coins. All they would say is that it was from a "certain park", but they weren't gonna say where But I badgered them and bugged them, till they finally relented and invited me along.

Turned out the park was in the city that my earlier friend had said was "off-limits". I didn't say anything (despite recollecting my earlier friend's statement). I just tagged along, since they were already hunting there, and hadn't had any issues. But in the back of my mind, I sometimes wondered. And I began to detect other parks & schools in that city too. Since I now had a driver's license and could borrow mom's car to go detecting at various places.

Then one day in the late 1980s, I bumped into my old Jr. high school friend. I asked him "who told you such & such city is off-limits?" At first he didn't even know what I was talking about. I had to remind him, jog his memory, etc... Then he mused that his older brother told him that.

Then one day in the early 1990s, I was hunting with his older brother. I remember about that city, so I told him: "hey, your younger brother says you told him that such & such city is off-limits. Where did you get that information?" He too didn't know what I was talking about. But with a little memory jogging and prodding, he finally remembered the incident (which was, by now 20+ yrs. in arrears). He said that he got his information from the oldest brother of the clan (who was nearly 20 yrs. older than my jr. high school chum).

So I asked the next "follow-the-trail question" : "ok then, where did your guys's oldest brother get that information from?" The best that the guy could recall, the way he remembered it, was that that oldest brother was detecting there in the 1960s at a school in that town. Some janitor came out to shoo him away. The conversation had gone something like this:

Janitor: "you can do that".

MD'r: "oh, I'm sorry, then I'll leave. And how about the school down the street, can I go there then?"

Janitor: "No. Not there either"

MD'r: "Really ? Wow. Hmmm, ok, how about the high school across town?"

Janitor (growing peeved): "no, not at any school here in XYZ city"

MD'r: "oh gosh, wow Well how about at the city park then?"

Janitor (growing impatient at the cross-questioning): "No, not an any public land in the entire city. It's not allowed."

Thus the md'r tucked his tail between his legs, glad that he had only gotten a warning (versus something serious like a ticket or something). He went home & dutifully warned his brother. And that brother dutifully warned the younger brother at some later time. And that youngest brother dutifully warned a school chum (me) at some later time. And I probably went and warned others over the years back then (hey, that's what friends are for afterall). And perhaps people I warned, likewise went and warned others (like this post has done for penngrove park, for instance). And before long, it's just taken as gospel fact. Especially so when something like this happens in the lightening fast info age of the internet.

But when you take a step back, 20, 30, and 40 years later, you start asking "who says?" and "since when?" and "where is this written?". And you begin to wonder if it's not just a case of a random fluke "scram" that went viral. Or someone who went into a city hall somewhere, asked "can I?" and got a "no" . Ie.: a safe answer from someone who just didn't want to be bothered. Yet the info gets bandied about, spread, found by key-word searches, and "presto, a rule or law is born in people's minds".

 

[Tom_in_CA]

P.S.: Patriot, I'm not saying that the gardener who approached you in that park would agree with this analysis. I mean, if you were to ask him, he'd simply repeat that it's not allowed. And if you were to defiantly do it in front of him, I'm sure he could "make your life miserable" and find some technicality to hassle you with.

So don't take what I'm saying to mean to thumb your nose at such an incident or person. Naturally we all give lip service and move on. And sure, don't be detecting when that same busy body is watching the very next day or week, etc....