A ? about small cal, round balls [shot]

[Davers]

Is there an easy way to tell the difference between Civil War era , Buck & Ball [small balls] or better said smaller caliber round balls from later Hunters Larger Buckshot ? ,would it be the patina or maybe the area that they were dug . A ? from someone in an area rich in CW and Game Hunting history. Also I believe there were firearms that fired a single small caliber round ball. [during the Civil War period]

 

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[GatorBoy]

I would say context is key.
Patina can be different depending on the amount of oxygen and Ph. Level in the soil they were found.
These came from a second Seminole war site in Florida ..before the civil war 1835-1842
They were in mud under a body of water.

 

[GatorBoy]

With pewter one piece buttons flints and 1830's coins.

 

[gunsil]

Looks like you have a minie there, and they weren't even invented yet in 1842, hence context isn't always correct. Davers, no, there is really no POSITIVE way to tell the age and usage of any lead ball that has a white patina on it. The white stuff is lead oxide which after a while forms an inpenetrable barrier which seals the lead against further corrosion and the coating ceases to grow. If you have several lead balls from the same place they could be over a hundred years apart in age and have the same amount of oxide coating. CW balls used in "buck and ball" loads were basically the same size as more modern 00 buckshot, around 32 caliber. There were many pistols which used similar balls, and even small caliber rifles which used a ball that size. Shotgunners also used them the same way as modern ones do. When it comes to lead balls the only real ID is "I found an old lead ball", beyond that ID other than caliber becomes largely conjecture.

 

[GatorBoy]

Looks like you have a minie there, and they weren't even invented yet in 1842, hence context isn't always correct. Davers, no, there is really no POSITIVE way to tell the age and usage of any lead ball that has a white patina on it. The white stuff is lead oxide which after a while forms an inpenetrable barrier which seals the lead against further corrosion and the coating ceases to grow. If you have several lead balls from the same place they could be over a hundred years apart in age and have the same amount of oxide coating. CW balls used in "buck and ball" loads were basically the same size as more modern 00 buckshot, around 32 caliber. There were many pistols which used similar balls, and even small caliber rifles which used a ball that size. Shotgunners also used them the same way as modern ones do. When it comes to lead balls the only real ID is "I found an old lead ball", beyond that ID other than caliber becomes largely conjecture.

Investigate a little further.
The first test models of rifled muskets were issued to the second dragoons that were stationed at that exact fort during the Second Seminole War.
They went into small scale production in 1848 after getting the nod from the military.
The French army officer Claude Minie Was credited for the invention in 1849 but they were being fired before that.
There was also later use of that site and there are artifacts to show that... I added that piece to be more of an example of patina...or lack there of.

 

[GatorBoy]

The white one is from a civil war site in North Carolina.

 

[Davers]

Thank's for the reply's gentlemen , I have asked this question [both online & in person] and have gotten many answers , so I suppose the location of the find means a lot but I guess no small cal, round ball is 100% Civil War era. .I was just curios about putting the 'suspect' small cal shot in the case with my other CW era relics from the same site, I suppose for now I will In most instances , BUT would not ever sell them as CW. OH Well ,I never sell anything I dig anyway ,except certain jewelry ...I worry too much.

 

[gunsil]

Investigate a little further.
The first test models of rifled muskets were issued to the second dragoons that were stationed at that exact fort during the Second Seminole War.
They went into small scale production in 1848 after getting the nod from the military.
The French army officer Claude Minie Was credited for the invention in 1849 but they were being fired before that.
There was also later use of that site and there are artifacts to show that... I added that piece to be more of an example of patina...or lack there of.

Your minie looks like a CW era projectile and there is no way you can PROVE it isn't or that it was from the Seminole wars, you can only conjecture that it was. The first U.S. issued rifled muskets were used with patched round balls just as hunting rifles had been for many years. The minie was first used in Europe and I have never seen any proof that any were made or issued here in the U.S. before the 1850s. Site use means little since all military arms sooner or later became "army surplus" and were used as hunting guns for years after their military careers were over. We are talking POSITIVE ID here, and there is no way to POSITIVELY PROVE where your minie came from or where or how Davers small caliber round balls came from or were used.

 

[GatorBoy]

I have the entire Dragoons history at the site it was found and it details exactly what I stated.
I also have the rest of the artifacts found in direct association with it at the same level ..in a small area of structure floor.
Here are a few..all from the same 20'x20' area of a second Seminole war fort.
Hardly conjecture... you make some pretty bold closed ended statements while not knowing who your speaking to or the story behind the artifacts.

 

[GatorBoy]

Notice the pipes are British and the pewter buttons very dateable.
You are only referencing U.S. issued rifles in your statements.


I have no need to continue with this... happy hunting. YA'LL

 

[gunsil]

You undoubtably have some fine relics from your site!! Some look earlier than the 1830s. All I dispute is that the minie ball is pre-1850 and the fact that it isn't proves that one cannot positively tell the age of a lead projectile from the site it was found. You will obviously believe what you like and probably no amount of reason will change your opinion. I don't have to know who I am speaking to when it comes to saying the minie ball isn't from the era you say it is, the projectile speaks for itself.

 

[GatorBoy]

It's all good.
My point I suppose was that no item isolated from associated artifacts or otherwise removed from its original context can tell you very much.
The "story" is in the context.
Musket balls are still fired today.. but the context of one found tells much more than a ball of lead.

 

[GatorBoy]

I think you would find it quite educational to read about the history of the model 1800 Baker Infantry rifle.
And its connections with Britain And the Seminole Wars.
You wouldn't be so matter of fact In your response to me.

 

[gunsil]

Actually I have heard and read a little about the Baker rifles. They used a patch and round ball. Yes there were experimental hollow base bullets before Minie developed his and they were never really mass produced until Minie perfected the design. Yours looks exactly like a CW era projectile and how it got to your site no one will ever know. My answer to the OP was correct, round balls cannot be positively identified as to their age and use. When I was 13 years old, around 1960, I purchased my first dug CW oval US belt plate for $3.00, and a bunch of dug minies and round balls, all the lead projectiles had a thick white lead oxide coating. I discovered that the 69 caliber round balls fit my 14 gauge double barrel shotgun perfectly with a medium patch. I must have fired a couple dozen or more practicing in the woods by my house. It is well known that all the CW battlefields were searched and picked for scrap metal after the battles, and I am sure that many picked-up projectiles were used in the following years by locals who then hunted the same grounds where battles took place. People also hunted those same grounds before the CW came to pass, and did so with round balls which can be found at those sites but have no relation to any battle. These are not in a majority by any means, but their factual existence shows that just because they came from a site of known activity doesn't make them POSITIVELY related to that activity.

 

[GatorBoy]

The original disign used round balls ..there were two more designs after that...the third and final did not.
Also Minie was only the co-creator of the "Minie ball" but got the credit and the nickname stuck.
Again.. you have alot of info but not the entire story..and made a closed end statement as fact that is missing important details and not correct.
If you were reading Wikipedia you only needed to read a little further and those details were explained.

 

[parsonwalker]

JUST A THOUGHT ABOUT BUCK 'N' BALLS

Thank's for the reply's gentlemen , I have asked this question [both online & in person] and have gotten many answers , so I suppose the location of the find means a lot but I guess no small cal, round ball is 100% Civil War era. .I was just curios about putting the 'suspect' small cal shot in the case with my other CW era relics from the same site, I suppose for now I will In most instances , BUT would not ever sell them as CW. OH Well ,I never sell anything I dig anyway ,except certain jewelry ...I worry too much.

Thought I'd chime in while the guys duke it out. I think context is VERY important. Especially if you're hunting a battlefield from EARLY in the war between the states. Earlier battles were much more likely to see use of the much-dreaded buck 'n' ball load by southern troops. Anything 1862 or earlier where you find white-patina buck shot size balls, I would say the odds are high that they are CW. I hunt an 1862 battlefield where I find lots of bucks. Also, if you find .58 round balls with three little dimples in them, the bucks you find there have an even better chance. Finally, as most know it was not unusual to have soldiers of both sides piling logs or small trees on top of trenches to add protection. At that 1862 site, I found a short section of yankee trench where I found 3 bullets in wood about a foot down on the very top of the trench. One was a .69 and then I found 2 "bucks" in wood mixed in. I would say that's a 100% CW buck ID! Just my 2 cents . . . My hunting partner once found a battlefield burial at that location. (Not a burial for sure - coulda been where he fell and those items were simply left behind when a burial detail picked him up) No bones, but flat civilian type buttons, other items and a cartridge box (remnants) with 5 intact buck 'n' ball loads still inside.