Gold Coin Melting

[Arizona Bob]

On May 1, 1933 all Americans were required to turn-in all of their gold coin, bullion, and certificates to any Federal Reserve bank.

Ultimately, the Secretary of the Treasury took control of the gold that was turned-in, and his office ensured coins were melted in accordance with Executive Order 6073.

In 1934, the Treasury created the Office of Domestic Gold and Silver Operations, to oversee the melting of gold coins. Most of the coins were melted into gold bars, and put in storage at Fort Knox. This office was finally shutdown in the 1980s.

The chart below shows some data on gold melting, but is not specific enough to show coin melts by mint year. (Well, at least they are broken down by denomination.) We are able to see that between 1867 and 1950, over 120,000,000 (million) gold coins were melted.

We can know how many gold coins were minted by examining a reliable source like Whitman's Red Book.

For example, if we examine the 1904 series of Liberty Head Double Eagle coins, we see that the US Mint produced exactly 11,390,874 gold coins for that year.

What we do not know, however, is exactly how many 1904 Liberty Head Double Eagle coins were melted by the Treasury.

 

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[Arizona Bob]

Crap! Forgot my question. Does anyone know of any "more specific" data available for the 1867-1950 gold melts?

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

I don't know any specific info, but I was shocked when I first heard about Roosevelt's "illegal bullion" act. You couldn't legally own gold bullion in the US until the Gerald Ford administration. Thanks for posting that chart.

 

[jim4silver]

I don't know any specific info, but I was shocked when I first heard about Roosevelt's "illegal bullion" act. You couldn't legally own gold bullion in the US until the Gerald Ford administration. Thanks for posting that chart.

Actually each person could own up to $100 face of gold which the executive order mentioned. This would have been equivalent to 5 double eagles, 10 eagles, etc. I guess if one had a big enough family, they could have still legally kept a nice stash for back then. I don't know how many average Americans held that much gold back then since during the depression $100 bucks was alot of money. I would bet though that the wealthier or more knowledgeable who even back then knew the value of gold vs. paper held large amounts of gold coins.

I don't think it is possible to know how many survive today. Many were sent by US citizens overseas to avoid the "confiscation". That is why for years many hoards of AU/BU coins were being found in Europe that had been stashed since the '30s.

Further, even to this day coin dealers will send scores of these coins to refiners when they are so badly damaged, improperly cleaned/polished that they cannot wholesale/retail them. Since for the most part average American gold buyers don't like to buy them compared to AGEs, Maples, Krugs, etc, and even collectors that do like to buy them (like me) don't want the badly damaged or improperly polished/cleaned ones because when it comes time to sell the coin dealer won't give much for them (this goes for the common years, in that more rare years/mint marks can bring a nice premium even if the coin has problems, like the CCs, etc).

Jim

 

[jewelerdave]

Its really hard to know exactly how many are left as to how many were melted. I have melted Thousands of Dollars face in gold over the last few years as my company refines gold.

Its amazing how no one wants to buy a polished or cleaned US gold coin, or even pay close to melt for it. but as soon as its a 999 bar or a 999 coin we mint. SOLD at a premium.

I have not kept any records as to what I have melted down. But there has been a lot of 40% silver, 90% silver, US gold, world gold etc. Just depending on how peoples moods are and whats hot determines prices. Just a couple years ago $20 gold coins in any condition were selling for $300 over melt on average...today they go for a couple bucks over or at melt.

Figure every day some of these coins go away for ever. Not only that we melt down a lot of the Fakes that were made by middle eastern governments in the 50s and 60s that were sold to Americans.

I am amazed by the number of fakes out there They are well done, and the gold content is good. but they are not US coins but they look like them.
Basically what happened under $35 gold you could buy gold on the world markets for $35, say British sovereigns.
You could make a lot of money making fake US gold coins and selling them to American tourists for twice the price since it was "illegal" to own gold as an American, yet the coin and jewelry clause was ok to have some. So if you wanted gold, you bought coins...not enough supply. And the Rich Americans would pay twice Spot for it as a collectible, That can be fixed, just mint US looking coins out of other world gold and that solves the problem.

So fast forward 50 to 60 years later and many people are horrified when they find out that Grandpas coin that supposedly had been in the family size the 1800s is just a 1950s copy fake that he bought unknowingly and put in his collection. It happens a lot.

the story would sound reasonable. A coin dealer just got back from X overseas country and was able to locate a horde of old US gold coins that had been untouched since a business transaction deposited them there back in the day. It was deposited and just sat there for decades in the back of some vault in Europe or in some kings coffers, Only now Recently "Discovered" and can be yours for only $70 per coin...

Fast forward to today, In china Just found a huge stash of Trade dollars untouched since the turn of the century, with china opening up and with access to the internet this horde was just found and you can own one for only $XXXX direct from China.

Of course now days we all know this to be fake because we have the internet and can double check and see a lot of fakes coming out of china....
Anyway, no production records exist of how many fakes are out there either. So its a numbers game and guess.
Not so much the case for grandpa 50 years ago. No one likes knowing they got scammed, its even worse when people find out the relative they loved so much and told them something was special was scammed. Its a hard pill to swallow. but its more common than one thinks.

 

[Tuberale]

Crap! Forgot my question. Does anyone know of any "more specific" data available for the 1867-1950 gold melts?

Haven't searched for that, but glad you posted what you found.

More difficult to determine how many silver coins have been melted than gold coins. Oddly, no one to date has much considered melting any other coin denomination except the nickel, which currently is worth more as melt value than face value.

On December 14, 2006 Congress made it illegal to melt US nickels and pennies.

Question: is it illegal to melt Canadian nickels and pennies, or English pennies?

 

[PetesPockets55]

?? Not sure what this post from Tonnyth has to do with this thread? Trolling for visits to their site?

 

[PetesPockets55]

On May 1, 1933 all Americans were required to turn-in all of their gold coin, bullion, and certificates to any Federal Reserve bank.

Ultimately, the Secretary of the Treasury took control of the gold that was turned-in, and his office ensured coins were melted in accordance with Executive Order 6073.

In 1934, the Treasury created the Office of Domestic Gold and Silver Operations, to oversee the melting of gold coins. Most of the coins were melted into gold bars, and put in storage at Fort Knox. This office was finally shutdown in the 1980s.

The chart below shows some data on gold melting, but is not specific enough to show coin melts by mint year. (Well, at least they are broken down by denomination.) We are able to see that between 1867 and 1950, over 120,000,000 (million) gold coins were melted.

We can know how many gold coins were minted by examining a reliable source like Whitman's Red Book.

For example, if we examine the 1904 series of Liberty Head Double Eagle coins, we see that the US Mint produced exactly 11,390,874 gold
coins for that year.

What we do not know, however, is exactly how many 1904 Liberty Head Double Eagle coins were melted by the Treasury.

Interesting thread and chart but I have to admit I'm a little confused by the chart because:

1)The chart switches from decimals ($1Gold- 19.8748) to comma's for the mintages. (I'm assuming that's an oversight.)
2)No coins were melted from 1950 to 1972? (2nd to last row in the chart and when the law ended)


I would think you would have to break the information in the chart down to the denomination you might be interested in.
--To get an idea which denomination might have a remaining supply that might be influenced by demand. (Marketplace usually sorts that out though.)
--Also, rarity probably affected the possibility of being melted, as numismatist would have coveted certain years/denominations/varieties and kept them hidden.

I wonder if a bell curve (of Probabilities and Statistics) could shed light on affected denominations/years. (Haven't had to think of this since high school a "few" decades ago.

Wait a minute- What was the question again? Oh yeah!
If all else fails you can approximate the number of available coins by using the percentage of total melted.

Example: Total of $1 melted in all years divided by the Total of $1 minted in all years = Approximate percentage melted of $1 for all years. So reduce the number minted by that %. (I think? Time to stick my head in a bucket of ice water to stop it from smoking. )

Here is a link to US gold coin mintages (by American Gold Exchange) to help.
US Gold Coin Mintages LINK .

 

[Kantuckkeean]

An old thread but interesting to think about time and again, as the subject of the large silver melts and the implications for the remaining population sizes of various US coins comes up fairly often.

Kindest regards,
Kantuck

 

[PetesPockets55]

An old thread but interesting to think about time and again, as the subject of the large silver melts and the implications for the remaining population sizes of various US coins comes up fairly often.

Kindest regards,
Kantuck

Thanks K'Tuck.
Originally reopened by Tonnyth (New Member or troll?). I replied (no quotes on purpose) and flagged his post. Appears mods
must have removed "his" post and commercial(?) link.

But yes good info on potential remaining mintages for gold US coins.

 

[dejapooh]

Actually each person could own up to $100 face of gold which the executive order mentioned. This would have been equivalent to 5 double eagles, 10 eagles, etc. I guess if one had a big enough family, they could have still legally kept a nice stash for back then. I don't know how many average Americans held that much gold back then since during the depression $100 bucks was alot of money. I would bet though that the wealthier or more knowledgeable who even back then knew the value of gold vs. paper held large amounts of gold coins.

There was an exception built in for coins with Numismatic value, thus some large collections remained in tact such as the Eliasberg collection which was considered to be the only complete collection of US coins from 1792 until his death in 1976. Of course, he didn't have the 1933 Double eagle.

https://www.pcgs.com/news/The-Eliasberg-Collection

 

[Johnnybravo300]

The people that turned them in were paid $20.67 per oz and after it was complete gold was reset to $35.
The biggest hit for the ones that turned it in was the 40 percent instant price increase in gold, which was really a 40 percent drop in the dollar's purchasing power.

What a punch in the gut that must have been!

 

[pulltabfelix]

When I was in Korea, 1966-1967 I bought about ten heavy chunky gold bracelets. You could not buy gold in the US, but I snuck it back in my boots by puttting them around my ankles lacing up the boots. We also had a personal box shipped back of our stuff we bought like stereos etc, but the word was the guys in the warehouses searched them for gold, dope and guns to keep for themselves. So I didn't trust them. Since we flew back on a chartered aircraft filled with returning GI's, we did not go through any customs or check points. But unfortunately for me, I sold all that gold (it was near 24K) to buy other things at about $30-$50 per ounce. What did a 20 year old kid know at the time. It goes without saying, would love to have those bracelets now.