Is this grading company legitimate?

[Gridwalker306]

Hey now! My brother gave me two Morgans today, 1886 and 1896. They are slabbed and graded by UCGS, Universal Coin Grading Service. I found two reports that the company is questionable. Does anybody have any experience with this company? I am wondering, is the grader being too generous with the grades as to charge a higher price? Are the coins themselves the real deal? Thanks, Mke

 

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[huntsman53]

UCG as it is called is apparently a Self-Slabber and is not a recognized Third Party Grading Service. As with most of these Self-Slabbers, the coins are usually over-graded to fetch the highest price for their' coins which are usually sold through eBay or other venues. It is most likely that the coins that your brother gave you are genuine but highly over-graded.


Frank

 

[Diver_Down]

UCG as it is called is apparently a Self-Slabber and is not a recognized Third Party Grading Service. As with most of these Self-Slabbers, the coins are usually over-graded to fetch the highest price for their' coins which are usually sold through eBay or other venues. It is most likely that the coins that your brother gave you are genuine but highly over-graded.


Frank

I'd like to mention that besides being highly overgraded, every once in awhile the blind squirrel finds a nut. Meaning - don't dismiss these self-slabbers outright. Just learn to grade yourself and buy the coin not the slab. Every now and then, you can find some real gems locked up in these slabs. Crack the slab and send the cherrypicked gems to recognized TPGs.

 

[huntsman53]

I'd like to mention that besides being highly overgraded, every once in awhile the blind squirrel finds a nut. Meaning - don't dismiss these self-slabbers outright. Just learn to grade yourself and buy the coin not the slab. Every now and then, you can find some real gems locked up in these slabs. Crack the slab and send the cherrypicked gems to recognized TPGs.

You are absolutely correct! I use to have a source of coins at a local Coin Show that were graded by untrusted (I won't mention names) Coin Grading Services and that were usually over-graded but not always. These were sold individually or you could but them in quantities of 5, 10, 20 or more at great discounts. Over several years, I purchased hundreds of slabbed coins this way and by buying in bulk, I was getting them for $6 to $8 a piece. Many of the purchases I made, were coins that were actually valued at $50 to $100 and by reselling them at 1/2 their' retail value, I was still making many multiples on the purchases. This source even had PCGS graded coins that either the Slabs or the coins were damaged during the slabbing (holdering) process. I could also get these at $10 or less each and make many multiples of that by either keeping the coins in the slab or breaking them out and 2x2'ing them. I was really sad that day that this source decided to retire and said that he was not going to pass on his' business to anyone else! Also, due to my Cherrypicking skills, I cherrypicked a lot of Error and Variety Coins from the inventory he brought to the local Coin Show.


Frank

 

[cudamark]

Hey now! My brother gave me two Morgans today, 1886 and 1896. They are slabbed and graded by UCGS, Universal Coin Grading Service. I found two reports that the company is questionable. Does anybody have any experience with this company? I am wondering, is the grader being too generous with the grades as to charge a higher price? Are the coins themselves the real deal? Thanks, Mke

Post some photos and we'll give you our opinion.....for what it's worth!

 

[Gridwalker306]

Ok thanks a lot guys. I must wanted to make sure they weren't counterfeits or something. The grading does seem a little high. I'm not an expert, but the 1886 is graded MS 66, a little hight than I'd expect. Here are some pictures.

 

[huntsman53]

Ok thanks a lot guys. I must wanted to make sure they weren't counterfeits or something. The grading does seem a little high. I'm not an expert, but the 1886 is graded MS 66, a little hight than I'd expect. Here are some pictures.

I would say that both coins are legit! However, with wear on Miss Liberty's hair above the ear to above her forehead, both coins are AU or less and definitely not MS. Also, both coins appear to have been dipped but the 1886 was dipped much longer ago and is now starting to re-tone with some funky mottled toning.


Frank

 

[cudamark]

Yeah, both are overgraded but I'd want to see the reverse of both before giving a grade.

 

[DeepseekerADS]

Without even looking for wear, I'd say that bag mark on the cheek of the 1896 would prevent it from being MS-65

And the MS-66 is kinda ugly to be MS-66....

 

[Gridwalker306]

Here are some better pics of both sides.

 

[cudamark]

They're either terrible strikes or there is some wear on the eagle's breast. Judging by the rest of the coin, I vote wear and give them an AU grade.

 

[huntsman53]

I would lean more towards EF-45 but they both teter on being AU! The rim rash and wear on Miss Liberty's hair is problematic on the 1886. They both appear genuine right down to the Die Clashing on the Obverse and Die Cracks on both the Obverse and Reverse of the 1886. I can't tell if it is a VAM (Van Allen Mallis) Variety that is known or possibly even unknown due to the mottled and smugly toning. Maybe someone else will have better luck in determining if it is or isn't a VAM!

http://www.vamworld.com/1886-P+VAMs


Frank

 

[cudamark]

Agreed, and to answer your three questions....No, I never have had any experience with that company (and never will judging by their grading expertise), Yes, they are too generous (to themselves) on the grade(s), and yes, the coins look to be genuine U.S. mint produced. They are fairly common dates and even in a "real" MS65 grade, they don't command a price high enough to make counterfeits likely.

 

[Gridwalker306]

Thanks very much everyone, all my questions answered. I was figuring they'd be close to the AU grade, the 1896 a little less wear than the 1886.

I need to research this VAM information. Do these varieties make much difference in value?

 

[huntsman53]

Thanks very much everyone, all my questions answered. I was figuring they'd be close to the AU grade, the 1896 a little less wear than the 1886.

I need to research this VAM information. Do these varieties make much difference in value?

Yes! Some VAM's can propel a Silver Dollar that is valued at say $50 (for a normal Silver Dollar) to be valued in the hundreds of dollars or more and a Silver Dollar that it is valued at $300 to $500, the VAM can propel it's value into many thousands of dollars. As an example, a 1901-P Morgan Silver Dollar in AU-55 is valued by PCGS at $650 to $750 but the same coin certified, graded and attributed by PCGS as a AU-55 VAM-3 recently sold on eBay (see link below) for $5,950 which is one heck of a value jump. And that is just one of many examples of the prices some Morgan and Peace Silver Dollar VAM's can bring. Back when I did a lot of Cherrypicking for VAM's, I literally purchased dozens and dozens of Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars which were non-attributed (not recognized by the Dealers or Sellers) VAM Varieties for $30 to $50 each and turned around and sold some of them for hundreds of dollars each after attributing which VAM's they were and noting it on the 2x2 holders.

1901 DDR Shifted Eagle Top 100 PCGS AU55 Silver Morgan Dollar RARE VAM 3 | eBay


Frank

 

[huntsman53]

Sorry for the extra post but I felt that you and others would want to know the following information!

If you happen to find a Morgan or Peace Silver Dollar which is an unknown VAM, this could be a Discovery Specimen and could eventually be worth a lot of money. However, not all known VAM's are listed or in publications issued by Leroy Van Allen, VAM World or Coin World that have been attributed by Mr. Van Allen or other VAM World member Attributers as they are too recent of finds. If after checking all resources and consulting the Attributers with VAM World and you cannot find a similar VAM Variety to match your' coin, then you will need to submit the coin to Mr. Van Allen for attribution. Once verified that the coin is a new VAM and your' coin is a Discovery Specimen, it will be highlighted in a Supplement Publication that Mr. Van Allen issues, on the VAM World's website and in their' publications as well as in Coin World. Once the word spreads around about this new VAM discovery, the value of a Discovery Specimen can skyrocket due to all of the Collectors vying to obtain it for their' Collection. The key to getting a great return on the coin, is knowing when to sell it and at what price you are willing to settle for! Once the discovery has been made public, others (Collectors and folks looking to make quick turn-around money) will scramble to find the same VAM by searching all of the Silver Dollars of the same Date and Mint that they can lay their' hands on, in hopes of finding one or more of these new VAM's. Once other specimens of this new VAM begin coming in for certification, grading and attribution and/or are sold, then the value of your' Discovery Specimen will decrease. However, your' coin will still be the coin that is sought after as it is the coin plastered across the pages of publications and will fetch more than any other specimens out there in similar condition and possibly some of the specimens that are in even better condition.


Frank

 

[Gridwalker306]

Thanks Huntsman. I have poured over those VAM varieties, but none seem to match. I do notice some die cracks in places on my coin. I am going to get out the microscope and investigate further. If I am able to get some good pictures of any odd things, would you like to have a look? You seem to know a lot about this VAM business, I'd like your opinion.

 

[Gridwalker306]

Well well well! I identified a VAM! It looks like it is a VAM 6B. I have the die crack from the two stars, under the neck, and into the date. Also, right under the chin is a die clash. Then I have the two "railroad tracks" from the eagle's right wing into the "n" above it. I also noticed something else that is different than the other 6B examples. In the first "8" in the date, there is a tiny blob on the left side. Could this be another variation, or am I seeing things lol? At any rate I'm pleased to have identified this coin. Any ideas on how this VAM variety affects value? Thanks again for pointing me in this direction.

 

[huntsman53]

Well well well! I identified a VAM! It looks like it is a VAM 6B. I have the die crack from the two stars, under the neck, and into the date. Also, right under the chin is a die clash. Then I have the two "railroad tracks" from the eagle's right wing into the "n" above it. I also noticed something else that is different than the other 6B examples. In the first "8" in the date, there is a tiny blob on the left side. Could this be another variation, or am I seeing things lol? At any rate I'm pleased to have identified this coin. Any ideas on how this VAM variety affects value? Thanks again for pointing me in this direction.

Congrats on becoming a VAMmer and attributing the coin's Variety yourself! I believe you are correct and it definitely is a Late Die Stage (State) and not the 1886-P "VNA" VAM-6. The VAM while not worth the big money, still usually fetches moderate prices. In other words, what was a $25 to $28 coin, is now a $50 coin or thereabouts.


Frank