What is dowsing?

[Follows Camp Craig]

Hey Craig, why so negative? Sounds like you don't know a thing about dowsing so why post anything at all. Maybe it's the inbreeding.

Ha ha, the inbreeding could explain why kids throw rocks at my house and tip over my only cow.

I know dowsing, and I know of great magicians.
It would be unforgivable for me to spoil the show and ones livelihood.

I will give it a rest out of respect for the craft and the fact that I will eventually loose my car keys.
What are the chances that the locksmith could also be a dowser

Craig

 

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[aarthrj3811]

Gee...What is to object to...I can go search for treasure with a set of $4 brass rod..to buy tools that do the same would cost close to $10,000...No big deal....I will keep on enjoying my hobby...Art

 

[signal_line]

There is a lot that needs to be said here, many corrections. First off the most blatant one is the phony L-rods frame claims. In order to prove anything with that contraption, you would somehow need to have both L-rods perfectly aligned (front and back, and side to side) and have perfect equal rotating resistance (amount of friction). That's never going to happen.

As for dowsing in the field, don't confuse it with map dowsing. There is a physical effect that some people are sensitive enough to feel when they get near a target. Water is easier to locate than most because for one reason typically it is a large target. Compare this to map dowsing for treasure which is a totally psychic effort with many complexities that most people do not have a clue about. Call it self deception but I call it delusions of grandeur. And it's not that it can't be done, just that the interpretation of the results creates extreme unreliability and inaccuracy. Add to this an almost illiterate attitude among many of these types who refuse to read anything about it. I am only left to conclude they don't want to know the truth. And the real shame of it is when they make their phony map dowse and the "victim" spends time and money on what turns out to be a snipe hunt.

I've had some very limited success with dowsing, but I spend years at it before I found the MFD equipment that Dell Winders helped to pioneer. My finds went up ten times, and like I have said If I had to rely on dowsing I would not be into treasure hunting. I don't think I could pass a double blind dowsing test and I probably spent ten years at it. Map dowsing, forget it, it won't happen, ever. MFD can pass it if the user knows what they are doing. Most people never get proper training. Like I have said, any L-rod use you need to learn some form of meditation. NOBODY wants to do that. They are is such a big hurry. I would bet most people who claim to be dowsers cannot dowse and same for the MFD users, and map dowsers the percentage is way higher.

 

[Gold Maven]

I have been in construction for 30 yrs., and have seen dowsing work in certain situations.

Underground pipes and wires disturb the normal magnetic fields that are all around us. Any flowing current creates a magnetic field. Some how a person with the right feel can locate these disturbances. I have seen buried pipes and wires located quite precisely.

Map dowsing, however, I am very skeptical of. Looking at a picture of a property, and some how locating buried treasures? This is not dowsing imo.

Long Range Locators are something we all wished would work. Personally I haven't see any evidence that they do. Imagine covering a 5 mile area in a day, walking right to the treasure. If they worked, I think we would all have one.

 

[signal_line]

There much more I did not touch on and don't care to take the time. But I do want to mention about the psychic stuff. You might think it is innocent and can't hurt anybody. That's not so. There are dangers involved. When you open up your chakras to the psychic stuff you also allow evil entities to enter your soul. Don't laugh. I bet most people never got that far when they say "It hasn't happened to me." I went through it for months I couldn't close my eyes at night without feeling like I was being dragged down to Hell.

 

[BabyNeedsANewPairO'Shoes]

There is a lot that needs to be said here, many corrections. First off the most blatant one is the phony L-rods frame claims. In order to prove anything with that contraption, you would somehow need to have both L-rods perfectly aligned (front and back, and side to side) and have perfect equal rotating resistance (amount of friction). That's never going to happen.

Yes. After I told Art that that I didn't see any way someone could cheat a dowsing effect and cross rods with that setup, It occurred to me that you easily could...by slightly tilting the frame to your front and allowing the momentum of the rods to swing themselves across each other. Again, the isomotor effect can take place: giving you exactly what you want without you knowing it. Isomotor effect is an undeniable, proven effect and can certainly explain many dowsing claims.

As I said in my first post to this thread, I am a skeptic, not an absolute disbeliever. But I have a hierarchy of standards. Again as I said, Occam's Razor should be respected.
In other words, IF dowsing works (which has in no way been scientifically proven), it could be due to any number of natural phenomena- magnetism, gravitational variation, whatever. If there's a true dowsing effect and it's caused by natural means, it should be as repeatable and unquestionable as the effect your metal detector has on a coin. Yet the fact that we continue to have such discussion on dowsing on this thread proves that dowsing is still a pseudoscience that has not proven itself. Those who believe find an effect, those who don't, don't.

But when it comes to "map dowsing" I stand with Gold Maven. There is nothing on that piece of paper that could possibly have any influence on a rod or a crystal, other than the mind of the person holding it. And the human mind is a malleable thing, easily led to wrong conclusions.

Again, as a skeptic, I won't say anything is outright false without outright proof, but for anyone to go from the potential effect of real world dowsing to the derivative practice of map dowsing, is a person willing to pass a threshold of proof that, in my opinion, goes from the sketchy to the ridiculous.

 

[two bear]

Hey all, I really enjoyed reading the different opinions and thoughts about dowsing. All I know is that some can dowse and some can't. Since first starting the thread about dowsing graves my father told me he has a water leak and the meter is rolling constantly. The utilities co. said the leak was on him so he said he had to find the water line and dig it up to fix it. He asked me if I thought I could find it. I went over and dowsed the yard and he spray painted the grass where I got readings. The next day he dug along the line and immediately found the water line. It was exactly where I had told him to dig and he sprayed. For me, I can see how dowsing can be used for a number of uses. I like to dowse graves, old homesites, look for native artifacts and anything that can help anyone out. I can see how some do not believe and all I can say is simply try it for yourself. A simple pair of wire coat hangers can relieve your doubts, but I have seen many people who just do not get a response while trying. Go figure. Some people can sing, some cant. Some can work with their hands at a certain craft and some can't. I don't know. We all have different talents or gifts.

 

[aarthrj3811]

There is a lot that needs to be said here, many corrections. First off the most blatant one is the phony L-rods frame claims. In order to prove anything with that contraption, you would somehow need to have both L-rods perfectly aligned (front and back, and side to side) and have perfect equal rotating resistance (amount of friction). That's never going to happen.

Wrong

As for dowsing in the field, don't confuse it with map dowsing. There is a physical effect that some people are sensitive enough to feel when they get near a target. Water is easier to locate than most because for one reason typically it is a large target. Compare this to map dowsing for treasure which is a totally psychic effort with many complexities that most people do not have a clue about. Call it self deception but I call it delusions of grandeur. And it's not that it can't be done, just that the interpretation of the results creates extreme unreliability and inaccuracy. Add to this an almost illiterate attitude among many of these types who refuse to read anything about it. I am only left to conclude they don't want to know the truth. And the real shame of it is when they make their phony map dowse and the "victim" spends time and money on what turns out to be a snipe hunt.

Still Wrong

I've had some very limited success with dowsing, but I spend years at it before I found the MFD equipment that Dell Winders helped to pioneer. My finds went up ten times, and like I have said If I had to rely on dowsing I would not be into treasure hunting. I don't think I could pass a double blind dowsing test and I probably spent ten years at it. Map dowsing, forget it, it won't happen, ever. MFD can pass it if the user knows what they are doing. Most people never get proper training. Like I have said, any L-rod use you need to learn some form of meditation. NOBODY wants to do that. They are is such a big hurry. I would bet most people who claim to be dowsers cannot dowse and same for the MFD users, and map dowsers the percentage is way higher.

Pure BS

 

[signal_line]

I know dowsing can work and I even know map dowsing can possibly work, but mainly for water. Both cases require the proper skills, not arrogance and ego. That's the exact opposite of what is required. I'm sure many people think I am arrogant, but they don't know me. I seek the truth, not superstition and B.S. There is no way to know the truth if you don't get feedback every day. I don't see why the claimed map dowsers do not practice like I do in my yard--toss the test target out in the yard with your eyes closed and then go inside and map dowse it. The response around here is "I don't need feedback." That's not seeking the truth, that's hiding from it. I suspect they know what the results will be and it ain't good. Having someone hide the target for you is not dowsing, it's telepathy or reading the person.

But even the regular dowsing is just way too unreliable for me. It's totally outdated as far as I am concerned. I can understand the need to map dowse. I really wish I had some good experience with it.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Yes. After I told Art that that I didn't see any way someone could cheat a dowsing effect and cross rods with that setup, It occurred to me that you easily could...by slightly tilting the frame to your front and allowing the momentum of the rods to swing themselves across each other. Again, the isomotor effect can take place: giving you exactly what you want without you knowing it. Isomotor effect is an undeniable, proven effect and can certainly explain many dowsing claims.

You can make it and prove to your self or would you not believe what you just done

As I said in my first post to this thread, I am a skeptic, not an absolute disbeliever. But I have a hierarchy of standards. Again as I said, Occam's Razor should be respected.

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor from William of Ockham (c. 1287 – 1347), and in Latin lex parsimoniae) is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in logic and problem-solving. It states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected.
The application of the principle often shifts the burden of proof in a discussion.[SUP][a][/SUP] The razor states that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power. The simplest available theory need not be most accurate. Philosophers also point out that the exact meaning of simplest may be nuanced.[SUP]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor#cite_note-3[/SUP]
Good try...Art

 

[aarthrj3811]

But even the regular dowsing is just way too unreliable for me.

Not to us

It's totally outdated as far as I am concerned.

8000 years is a very long time

I can understand the need to map dowse.

Try it and then go find some treasure just like we do

I really wish I had some good experience with it.

It takes a little more than you find in books....Art

 

[BabyNeedsANewPairO'Shoes]

two bear, I'm glad you were able to help your father. I'm not ready to say, "Yes, this is proof that dowsing works!" because it's a one-off situation and not the result of peer-reviewed, multiple, controlled double-blind studies. Every advancement that humans have benefited from in the last 150 years has been from hypotheses that have been scientifically proven and tested. No human advancement has ever been linked to faith in something that can't be repeatedly scientifically proven. How many lives have been saved by antibiotics (science) compared to people saved by homeopathic medicine (pseudo science)?

But as a principled skeptic, I will certainly say congratulations that you could help him. I look forward to the day when dowsing joins proven physics, medicine and biology in the realm of science. But until it does, I cannot personally accept "just believe" as a rationale. As I said in an earlier post, like Fox Mulder, I "Want to Believe".

Here's the thing. Any single personal situation can be changed by things like dowsing, the moon, astrology, tarot, prayer or random chance. And none of us have the ability to definitively determine what caused the change. But when the change goes in our favor, we reinforce the belief that what we used to instigate that change worked. When the change doesn't go in our favor (which always happens half the time) we use that outcome to reinforce our belief that we didn't pray hard enough, didn't interpret the rods right, didn't throw the right cards, whatever. We seldom use failed outcomes and statistical insignificance to question the underlying assumptions in the first place. We should.

When we look at non-individual situations, we move out of the realm of random chance. When we look at large populations of participants, we never find a pseudo-scientific effect (dowsing, astrology, tarot, homeopathy, etc.) working on a large scale. We only find that proven scientific principles are able to predict outcomes on a large scale.

Back to the issue at hand. If dowsing were truly effective, wouldn't it transcend the individual allegorical accounts and be provable over a large sample in a scientific experiment? So far it's not.

So if it works for you, great but I still think the evidence shows that it is likely the result of isomotor effects, confirmation bias and random chance.

Best wishes to you.
Bruce

 

[two bear]

Bruce- I hear you. I think for some the result of an isomotor reaction, confirmation bias and simple random chance is clearly evident. I just wonder how when I dowse for something, I am thinking about what I'm looking for I get a reaction to something that I do not know the answer to or simply can't see. One example is when I was doing a three day backpacking trip and found flint in my campsite. I had my rods with me and started to dowse the area. A few minutes later I found a beautiful flint point that was about two inches under ground. I knew the possibility was there but did not know where the point was located. I also was taught how to dowse graves and get a reading to determine the sex of the person buried. I know some may say that I looked at the headstone, which is how I verify my response, but I have had people go to a certain grave and cover the stone. I then get my reading and state my answer. Seriously, I can do this now without discrepancy. I used this technique to make my dowsing stronger. There are many different applications to dowsing I know and some of the ones I use I guess are pretty crazy, like dowsing graves and homesites, but I guess it's just a "southern thang". I am planning to go to a cemetery where there are believed to be lost graves. It's on a hill with a blind curve and makes the traffic dangerous. The county won't grade the hill because of the possible presence of these lost graves. I hope to find out if there are some there or not and hopefully if there are then the church can honor the sites with markers and if there aren't then maybe they will grade the hill and save a life from getting t-boned in the side. I will let you know of the outcome. Good luck in your searches and may God bless you and yours.

 

[signal_line]

No doubt the skeptics want to disprove dowsing by the double blind test. I disagree with aRT on just about everything he has ever said, but I do agree there are no fair DB tests. They are typically designed by skeptics with the main purpose to disprove dowsing and LRL's. That's not saying there can't be a fair test, just that skeptics are so rabidly biased there is no chance they can ever come up with one. Like I said, a good LRL with a skilled operator can pass a fair DB test. I doubt there are more than a handful of dowsers RL users) in the world who can pass one. Some people try to lump dowsers and LRL users together. That's just more biased sickness.

The US govt Star Gate program for remote viewing had the best people in the country and their results were not good enough to keep the program alive. Anyone who ignores that has their head stuck in the sand as I say, "so deep the only thing showing is the soles of their shoes and their rear end." And map dowsing by an amateur--forget it. No chance in Hell. So someone who is unbiased can see there is B.S. from both sides of the aisle.

The idea that dowsing should work like a metal detector is not realistic. Dowsing works but it is hit and miss at best. No one gets 100% not even the best LRL's. Dowsing is like a golfer getting a hole-in-one. Sometimes it happens but even the pros don't get one very often, maybe once every few years. And fact is, metal detectors can not find gold. I doubt the odds are a thousand pull tabs to one gold. These are skeptic arguments. What is the purpose? I can say dowsing is not reliable and that is why I use an LRL, but the skeptics are nothing but negative. I practice with an LRL about three hundred days a year. I get feedback a dozen times a day. Sometimes way more. My hits ratio in the practice area is over 90%. I go for days sometimes without missing. Some days it is lower. If I go to a city park that goes down to about one in five hotspots yields some gold. Not that it isn't there, just that I could not find it amongst the trash and I don't want to leave a crater there. Dowsing I doubt I could get anywhere near that figure. Like I said my finds went up ten times when I started using the MFD equipment.

 

[signal_line]

If you really want to learn about dowsing get the book "Supersensonics". This is the masterpiece. This will douse (pun intended) any misconceptions you have. DrHills.com I have come to the conclusion if you don't study this book you are not serious about locating.


I realize some people think I am boasting when I discuss my locating skills. I sure don't see it that way. I put the info out there so people can see what is possible. Honestly, I told one guy I wouldn't wish on anyone what I have gone through. I pretty much laugh at the skeptics but there are some dowsers who are worse than any skeptic. I'm not saying all dowsers are that way, but they protect the bad ones by not saying anything. And I really don't like to see people getting ripped off by the phony stuff some people on this forum have been pushing for years. These are disguised dowsing rods that sell for nearly a thousand dollars and don't work much better than a forked stick. I've come to realize people are going to get suckered and there's not much I can do about it other than to clear my conscious of any guilt from not saying anything about the crimes being committed. When I tell someone not to buy a phony device and they buy it anyway, well, they get what they deserve. Then they wastet their time with it and end up in disgust for all locating. That's more than criminal.

 

[signal_line]

I know this is really going to ruffle some feathers but there are some unholy people out there. Believe me I have experienced them. Of course treasure hunting by nature is mostly greed, but some people are against anything that even hints of holiness. There are many people with hatred for religious clergy like the Jesuits. Many famous dowsers were Catholics and just the mention of them is like holding up a religious article in front of someone who needs exorcism. This could be one cause for the rabid skeptics. I don't know, maybe it is just a subconscious reflex they have but there is no doubt that it is a factor. And I'm not just talking about skeptics here. There are some dowsers, maybe more than some. Maybe a lot of them.

 

[TheRingFinder]

I believe "water" dowsing is possible, because a freshly cut branch can move toward a water source, it's trying to survive - it's logical.
Metal dowsing is not possible and I have proven that by testing people who say they can do it - and they couldn't. Plus I work in the field of electronics and electrical impulses "EMI"

Map dowsing is really sad, and even more pathetic that other people believe them.

Case in point - Fake pro-wrestlers will go to their grave saying the WWE is real and we all know it's fake. magicians will do the same.

Now you have the truth and reality - deal with it - Go get a nice metal detector and have some fun!!!!

 

[aarthrj3811]

We deal with it....We go dowsing and dig treasure...I took the last metal detector I owned and taught it to swim after dig about two hundred pull tabs in a row and recovering not one speck of gold...Art

 

[signal_line]

Like I said the book "Supersensonics" is better than all the other dowsing books combined. Most people cannot understand much of what was referred to in the Holy Bible as "miracles" are dowsing feats. Hills says thought energy is more powerful than the nuclear force. Modern man is degenerated from their peak 3500 years ago. Modern dowsing is so watered down I compare it to a homeopathic solution--so diluted there is not even one molecule left. Most so-called "dowsers" do not have a clue.

That book is nearly forth years old. They talked about the human body being superconductive. I said "Oh, yeah, that's B.S." Just recently they are finding out that might be right after all.

 

[TheRingFinder]

We deal with it....We go dowsing and dig treasure...I took the last metal detector I owned and taught it to swim after dig about two hundred pull tabs in a row and recovering not one speck of gold...Art

OK- Art, whatever you want to believe, that's your choice. I will be doing some traveling in the near future and would love for you to prove that dowsing for metal works. lrt me know if you would be willing to go out detecting with me. Thanks - TRF