Jun 10, 2012, 03:15 AM
Gold Dredger 2nd Generation
Hoser, right you are. Could not have put it any better myself. Must be the "old man" wisdom kickin' in.
Originally Posted by Hoser John
Jun 10, 2012 03:15 AM
Jun 10, 2012, 09:10 PM
Something I don't understand about the article: "The State Water Resources Control Board condemns the harmful effects on water quality because it suspends toxic mercury into California's water supplies and aquatic systems."
Originally Posted by Jeffro
I understand how this can happen with dredging but wouldn't it also happen during a rain storm? I'm in Texas and anytime we get a good downpour the river comes up and a lot of the riverbed is disturbed. When this happens, it causes the river to become "cloudy". Isn't that also the case in Kali, or am I missing something?
Jun 11, 2012, 12:09 AM
We've been over this a million times with the DFG and the environmentalists. Verdict - dredgers guilty, mother nature innocent. - Fullpan
Jun 11, 2012, 02:25 AM
#1- Mercury is not toxic. Salts of mercury and mercury fumes from heating, are toxic. Any natural mercury that dredgers pull up are the metal in its natural state. Whatever we catch is taken out of the eco-system. Easy enough for normal people to understand. Unfortunately the state people who are inclined to doom and gloom will never state it this way.
Originally Posted by forhorsmn
Oddly enough, they will equate it to the "Mad hatter" syndrome, which did cause a lot of harm when people inhaled large amounts of mercury vapors, especially Hatters, who used it daily to clean the furs they made hats out of. Hence the term "Mad as a Hatter"
However, when it occurs naturally, even put there as a metal from previous hydraulicking operations, it's pretty safe when handled as a metal. Old timers like me can remember handling it in our grade school classrooms with no effects. Weird, eh?
Yes, it can be dangerous under the right circumstances. So can bleach, but we use it every day in our wash. Etc. etc.
I can flat out tell you with no uncertainty that mercury in it's natural metal state will in no way ever be suspended in the water. PERIOD!
Mercury is heavier than lead. Lead has a specific gravity of 9.9 or so. Mercury is 13.6 or so. Gold is around 19. This means that they are that many times heavier than water. Lead is 9.9 heavier, Merc is 13 times, gold is 19 times. You can look up the Specific gravity of any mineral on earth, it has a factor related to water which is 1.
Dredgers pull lead, mercury, and Gold out of the rivers all together. Anybody that says we put mercury back into the river system is full of horse **** .
In short Four Horse Men, the source you are relying on is crapola. (And your Biblical reference)
A dredge does not use mercury in any way shape or form. We take it out, we do not put it in, it is not suspended when we suck it up. It is either trapped in our sluices or right back on the riverbed where it came from. Easy peasy.
Hoser and Gravel, I would love for you to disagree with me, LOL! Go ahead John, you dip ****. I know you got ********* poisoning before because you don't know how to handle it. Much like the eco freaks you like to complain about.
Last edited by Jeffro; Jun 11, 2012 at 02:48 AM.
Jun 11, 2012, 09:11 AM
Jeffro you inbred idjet-constrict your obese oral cavity--extracate your craniumn from your anal corridor--masticate fesces and expire to end the inbreeding . For anyone with a IQ above 2 can simply go to the CDFG website-look at dredging EIR information that banned dredging forever and simply read MY 169 PAGE BOOK aka comment on whatzup ,who,what and why and save this forum bs to the pontificators,haters,simpletons who are too lazy to even click a link. Behold the truth--hahahahaha-John PS- My comment was sooooo big it even got 3 headings under the listings of commentors.
Jun 11, 2012, 09:54 AM
forhorsmn, getting back to your legitimate question, what you're missing is that enviros don't like their solitude hikes in the "pristine" forest disturbed by
"noisy", sounds of enterprise. Since they outnumber us a million-to-one in both dollars and numbers, they lie and get away with it. simple as that.
Jun 11, 2012, 06:08 PM
Last edited by Jeffro; Jun 12, 2012 at 01:41 AM.
Jun 12, 2012, 06:52 AM
Johns book may be worth the time to read it and then youll know whats up! and maybe people would fight for what weve already lost!
Last edited by russau; Jun 14, 2012 at 08:22 AM.
Jun 12, 2012, 09:17 AM
COMMENTS ON THE 2011 SEIR DRAFT AND SUPPORTING DOCUMENTS
Miners Alliance Board Member and Co-founder
P.O. Box # 991811
Redding, Calif., 96009
This draft is even more flawed than the first insipid attempt to draft a comprehensive EIR. Much more added hyperbole, misdirection and flat out falsifications. Mercury tests, hypothetical, that would make even a 1st year lab student cringe as total lack of scientific process and mandatory procedures in both EPA mandated sampling protocol and analytical lab process. Filled with you could---you might—and you have the capability?? I intend to completely blow this insanity off the map with exacting facts, figures, real studies , and statistics gleaned from state and federal files. There is nothing like beating the enemy in the head with their own documents. And yes after 50+ years of fantastic relations with CDFG the current situation has ruined my long standing support.
The second alternative, the return to the tried and true 1994 regulations and the adding of currently listed animals on the Federal endangered species list would legally satisfy both the Alameda court and SB 670 mandate. By no means would any other alternative be acceptable, legal or certifiable by the Secretary of The State or the Office of Administrative Law. I am thusly ready, willing and able to prove the question is NOT “ Is dredging deleterious to fish” but are gill nets, fishermen, hunters and the CDFG insane policies deleterious to fish. And that dredgers are only the first group of outdoor users who will be mandated ”GUILTY TILL PROVEN INNOCENT EVEN IN THE FACE OF THE LEGALLY BINDING 16 YEAR OLD PROVEN 1994 EIR. Given 4-5 years and millions of dollars to cook up tainted evidence has failed miserably, even the comic book called a dredgers survey is a lesson in absurdities.
Dredge SEASON proposal;
This insane 14 days a year , not within 3’ of any bank or bar within any wetted parameter is total insanity. The below the wetted riparian habitat has worked since 68 when dredge permits were first introduced and cover all needs now as then.
These closures constitute a legal takings under the law. Let’s do the math of this absurdity. The waters of California will be restricted to 1% of the prior areas open and 4% of the before mentioned time constraints also. Your proposal would leave ½ the 1% open during winter flows and snow and the other open areas when bone dry in the summer. Of the remaining ½% open 50% of that, is in waters devoid of gold, which ¼ of 1% open for 14 days a year. You are thus highly concentrating user actions and thus causing concentrated damage within a miniscule area. Biggest mistake CDFG makes in all forms of user conditions and controls is the usage concentration thus doing considerable more damage-continued later in MUCH more detail. Furthermore, a large segment of the non gold bearing areas are within the coastal ranges where mercury concentration far outstrip all the contamination levels in the old Motherlode region. Please see exhibit #1. Please see State Geology report #191 ON MERCURY MINING IN CALIFORNIA also pictures and text included as exhibit #1 . California just happens to have been the worlds largest historical producer but so much fun blaming dredgers. This reflects a complete lack of investigative skill in this SEIR report.
SEASONS CONTINUED-PAGE #2
The stringent closures are not in compliance with CEQA or any scientific protocol mandating all closures be accompanied by justifiable evidence to prove mitigating damages to any specific species. Closing 99 ¾% of the state to viable dredging and to just 4% of the time MUST be reported with accompanying certified documentation and NONE PROVIDED within this failed SEIR.
Furthermore the extremely dangerous mandate to have site specific notification open to public scrutiny opens a Pandora box of dangers to the dredgers. Any crankster gangster can then go online and see where we’ll be-when we’ll be there-and then have the information on when best to come and rob or kill us for our gold at will. Also then our homes will also be advertised empty and after they rob, rape, and pillage of my encampment, why then lets go and finish off and burglarrize the house too. No other user group is forced into this public disclosure of dangerous information including my home address also to make it easier for them also. Then they also know when you will NOT be on your claim and come and claimjump with impunity. Unfortunately this has proven true for me. Example in 2006 I went to the S.F.American on my claims and thieves monitored my internet picturess and postings and raped my Trinity claims with 5 guys and 3 dredges. End to end and took out over $500,000 in gold at todays prices. Public disclosure kills miners and leaves our homes open to invasion so this INSANE mandate is totally out of the question. Another friend (dredger) lost over 50 weapons, $250,000+ in gold/silver and family heirlooms due to the same exact situation Thanksgiving 2008.
As long as I have already touched upon the subject of mercury I would like to now address, with tongue in cheek, the 2 hypothetical mercury studies that are purported to address the evil dredgers massacre of the lakes, streams and rivers with our ungodly discharges of mercury laden tailings. The discredited Water Board American River purported study and the failed USGS study on dredge discharges.
Water Board- The completely flawed study was conducted upstream on Mr. Bill Centers’ campground at Lotus, where the Hi Way 49er crosses the S.F.American. Mr. Center has allowed, for a hefty % cut, many of my associates to dredge this particular stretch of rivers utilizing larger 8” dredges during the seasons allowed by CDFG. Below the bridge is closed in the winter and open above the bridge with permission from Mr. Center. I just happen to have videos proving that that same EXACT AREA was and has been completely dredged, every rock moved, every crack, nook and crannie blasted absolutely clean and by god not a speck of mercury. I even have the largest specimens of my cut retained in my safe deposit box as proof. Very easy to examine under a electron microscope and prove absolutely no acids have been applied to remove any residual mercury. Also it is easy to prove that the specimens came from that EXACT locale also through spectrographic analysis as to composition. Gas chromaphatography is also a tool to prove origin as all gold has FINGERPRINTS that prove conclusively the point of origin. I would like to volunteer up my movies (to match to the water boards video) and gold for free to the Office of Administrative Law to prove beyond any doubt the falsification of this absurd study. The area was purposely contaminated with mercury to justify a end and that’s all. The study area was purported to have been found in February Page #3---continued MERCURY--and left to dredge in September( 7 months) in direct violation of EPA, State Haz /mat laws, State Water Board rules and regulations, and state water quality act and numerous other agencies legal mandates also. Every scientific rule/law and protocol was violated during the collection of a pre concentrated sample, 63+ kilograms of concentrates as collected and posted in this ridiculous hypothetical study. Please see exhibit #3. This report goes into exacting detail as to the rerunning of waters utilized for concentration which taints all scientific studies and violates water quality board accepted, and EPA, mandated protocol for certifiable results. The samples were concentrated utilizing contaminated water thus negating any credibility in any scientific arena.
The absolutely insidious laughable study conducted by Mr. Churchill-(not even credible enough to be published anywhere except here of coarse) makes some of the most outrageous assertions about mercury, truck bed volume ,and miles of mercury and barely any gold found. 100% blue sky and CENSORED. Anyone with a 5th grade math knowledge and a periodic table can easily prove these assertions to be absolute hogwash. He would purport that the miners lost over half the mercury to get the gold. When in fact, at that particular time and place , the mercury was almost as valuable as GOLD itself. What idiot would throw away a product—any product needed in gold recovery at a rate of 50% consisting of not only the mercury but the GOLD that was the object of their ungodly labors and desires from the get go. This hypothetical report was conducted to scare little children in the middle of the night and not a single dredger with any experience could give these absurd assertions any credibility.
Now for Mr. Flecks laboratory study conducted at the USGS lab. Here again all –see example #4--scientific protocol for sampling was thrown out the window completely. They sent the Mc Cracken boys(reported) up the hill with a dirty shovel and 10 regular buckets (for $3,000 or so) to collect samples for a certifiable study on mercury discharge. No sample site sealed containment, no gps positioning for accountability, and no proof of process and procedures utilized in sampling techniques either. Then the contaminated samples were run in a lab test, ludicrous without free flowing waters, and again utilizing re-circulated water, the samples were thus contaminated and concentrated to achieve the results mandated by Water Board. Complete and total violation of all federally and state analysis procedures. I will leave the math of the chemistry to a very hardworking engineer in Auburn-J.R.L-as he has gone completely through the laughable results and rightly so deserves the credit as I must press on with even more pressing matters in this hypothetical EIR study. Unfortunately the USGS lab is now relying on outside projects to stay open and after a protracted discussion with Mr. Fleck , PRIOR to these tests being performed, I can indeed see his plight. Do or die-pure, simple and unholy. Conducting biological testing utilizing pre-conceived results is the largest growth industry , according to the federal department of economics, in the 21st century. The radical enviromental community hysteria has worked righteously in fund raising for their goals and here in California we have the best legislators ,judges and labs for sale in the country—or was that the world??
This ludicrous attempt at a EIR would also have you believe that there is no process, procedure or protocol for mercury containment, refinement and reclamation. The EPA and the various states have mandated that programs exist for the collection of mercury. Please view exhibits #4-the EPA mandate and exhibit #5 the Oregon mandate. The state of California also has the exact same programs through our local county environmental departments. But of coarse this EIR asserts just the opposite. Time constraints prevented me-health for 3 weeks- so that I didn’t have time to find and copy to post here but easily verifiable to any that doubt the worthiness of my ascertains.
MINERS ABSURD SURVEY—or how I lost that 50lb. bass and that 50 point buck.
Dredgers failed survey -- I absolutely refused to participate in such a farce. It was a numbered survey and anything and everything can and will be used against you in a court of law. BLIND study is the mandate and when fishermen, rafters, hunters ,kayakers and such are required to take such a survey—then I will and until then CENSORED.
Right off the bat on the very first page this laughable survey lost all proven accuracy and accountability. I have melded the out a state with the instate figures to compact the absurdities and try to make this comment less duplicative of facts. Please see examples #6 for both in/out state statistics.
It specifically states that there were over 3,026.75 hours of dredging on the Sacramento River. At the hypothetical 5.5 hours a day a miner dredges that is stated in this study this constitutes over 850 days of work on a river that has been closed below the Shasta Dam forever. Also as Mr. Stopher well knows, since he illegally mandated the Cantara Spill forever closure almost 20 years ago, everything above the dam to the point of inception is also closed down to every square inch, and all tributaries also. You are thus led to believe that this is a comprehensive scientifically conducted survey. For that insane ascertain you thusly must believe in Harry Potters cloak of invisibility or perhaps Mr. Frodos cloak of invisibility as well. 850 days of dredging adjacent to a I-5 and in full view for at least 95% of its’ length, the Sacramento River is not dredgeable without detection. I dredged it 1,000’s of times and always visited by my friendly CDFG wardens and checked religiously yet you are led to believe otherwise. And it degrades from there into yet more ludicrous assertions. You are led to believe that the dredge ban has not had any lasting socio-economic ramifications AND that a total ban on dredging will actually create 50 jobs?? Where? in CDFG enforcement maybe, but the total desecration of all river economy. The figures state that in 2008 there were 1,823 camping night moneys pumped into local hard hit even in the depression economy. This lack of income has closed over half the Klamath River establishments and campgrounds. The illegal closures on the Sacramento system has decimated Dunsmuir, Pollard Flats, Lakehead and Redding economic viability. Businesses have sat for over 15 years empty and the towns look like ghost towns for years. My own business Oates Services were closed due to the ungodly loss of our most viable dredging asset, the Sacrament River and the tributaries. 3 miner businesses went under, homes lost, families torn asunder, suicide ran rampant and folks just gave up and moved elsewhere. The resultant loss of claim tax monies collected, annual reporting fees and resultant loss of revenues cost our broke county millions throughout the years. This purported total ban will finish off the rest and kill the river folks who scrape a living off of tourism.
On and on the survey goes with fantastic pie in the sky hypothetical facts and figures. A 4” dredge will consistantly move ¾ of a yard of material a hour. In your wildest dream maybe but after 38 years a sucking gravel this is indeed someones pipe dream( or a manufactures advertising hyperbole) and should be filed along with the purported 50lb bass and the 50 point buck. Page 4# first article has absolutely no question as no amount of square inches or cubic feet or cubic yards, just the ascertion that you dredged 4 or 5 or 6 WHAT Page 7 has scaled up mystically on the 3rd chart down from 56 to 734 which is a factor of 25 X times the original figure, scaled up, no BLOWN out of all proportion is more appropriate. Page 7 first chart is yet another incomplete question with no basis in fact-mercury-where ?? Home , lab, grocery store, river where Flawed beyond any practicality with egotistic mine is bigger than yours and I’m badder than you mentality of the newbie who wants to be a dredger.
Oil and Gas pollution—
You are lead to believe in this EIR that we spray oil and gas all over the environment through our simple ability to do so. Complete hysteria once again. Oil ruins golds’ ability to settle out and indeed floats the gold right out of your dredge recovery box. Gas is the bane of dredging as once spilled, exactly like oil, it is immediately pumped down to us to breathe through our air compressors and diving regulators. Once gas or oil is spilled your day is ruined and extreme caution is utilized to absolutely contain and control all petroleum products. Get gas fumes in your air supply and you’ll spend many MANY hours scouring it clean trying to regain clean air. But once again the truth is inconvenient for this absurd EIR attempt and we just love to lose days, ruin costly equipment, and throw up gas fumes all day from diving in gas and cleaning the subsequent mess. You are led to believe a lousy 3,200 dredges with a average 5 hp engine and a 4” nozzle that sips gas at less than ¼ gallon a hour is some horrendous environmental hazard. Well time for yet another comparative analysis as in boaters. Please see example #8. California DMV boat registration statistics. There were in 2000- 928,000 boats and adjusted annually utilizing departmental figures a total of over 1,200,000 in 2010, rounded down to make the numbers smaller. These boats run 15-1,000 hp engines that inhale gas, AND SOME A OIL MIX, at many gallons a hour for at least 26 days a year and 6 hours a day for a total of 187,200,000 hours of NOISE and pollution . But this EIR mandates that we dredgers at 1/1,000,000 the gas and oil usage are a immediate danger and thus must be eliminated and with less than 1/10000th of 1% of the hours dredging also in comparison to boating hours. I’ve never seen a single boat quieter than a dredge. Sounds travels 16 times faster in water and is magnified expotentialy so noise will drive you crazy under water.
Now let’s throw in some hunting facts to bring some true perspective as to our dredging footprint in relation to sheer numbers, noise and pollution. Please see example #9.
There were over 1,630,723 hunting licenses issued under 150 differing kinds of game programs to kill hundreds of millions of varying animals in our once robust state. But this is indeed just the tip of the ice burgh as the stamps issued ( read kills performed) is mind bogglingly massive. And the average trips at over 22 a year an average of 4 days and 9 hours a day equals 127,292,616 hours versus the dredgers miniscule dredge hours at less than 1/100th of 1/10000000 of the hours and we do not CRUISE around in gas guzzling ear deafening monster trucks full of guns hooting and a hollering and shooting at anything with a heartbeat , and anything that doesn’t also, BUT we diminish their experience by our mere presence?? I think not. Again just more smoke screen and hyperbole to diminish our rights to dredge.
FISHERMEN AND GILL NETS- Instant death to the salmonoid and steelhead species by the millions. But ban the dredgers simply because we have a miniscule capacity and yet AGAIN-show me the tickets for killing salmon, steelhead, tromping through the reds beds, or netting fish EVER?
CDFG website has a great heading called –YUM YUM COME AND EAT’M UP see example #10 and #11 for the current approved slaughter . Please see example #12 In 2005 the CDFG sold 47,397 stamps for steelhead for $236,985 and 30,043 stamps for salmon at $45,064 and 15,890 10 day permits for $504,507 and 153,057- 2 day permits for $2,448,912 and 553,209-1 day permits for $5,670,392 and 11,299 non resident sport fishing permits for $963,239 and 1,224,668 resident sport fishing permits for $39,518,644 for a grand total of 2,035,563 LICENSING TO KILL MULTIPLE FISH ON MANY OUTINGS. This wholesale slaughter put over “ $57,507,047 in their coffers and yet even though absolutely no tickets, infractions or other damning evidence is produced ALL DREDGERS are banned simply because a miniscule 3,200 dredgers have the capacity, never proven, to hurt fish?? Or is it really just the old adage of “SHOW ME THE BENJAMINS?” If you have cash the killing is not only approved but encouraged. Now lets get into the many MULTI- MILLIONS of trips, noisy trucks, gas belching oil eating 4 x 4 monsters to access the great outdoors and hundreds of million of camp sights befouled, riparian habitat destruction, reds beds destroyed and the list is never ending –as long as you have the cash that is it’s cool we’ll just blame then 3,200 dredgers. Please see example #13 The effects of Angler wading on Survival of Trout Eggs and Pre-emergent fry is just yet another miniscule eye opener of what 2,035,563 X 21 trips a year=42,746,832 X 6 day trip average =256,480,938 minimum trips down the road—through the riparian habitat, down the bank and sloshing through the environment. With every step some critter gets squashed , but pay the cash and the right is yours.
In the 1994 dredge committee meetings the sole representative for the environmental movement and fishermen only credential was that he fell into a dredgers hole and almost drowned. Admittedly after a few beers, but damn them dredgers all to hell. To this I could only point out that Mr. M. Ward published a outstanding study called ”Adult Summer Steelhead Trout Utilization of Summer Holding Pools in the Middle Fork of The Eel River”. This behavior is mirrored and applies to all indigenous fisheries. Please see example #14 as deep pools are a mandate of a healthy fish population. To layover, rest and eat is imperative to all migratory patterns established by all indigenous fish that migrate. Please see example #15 - Furthermore this is also examined in more detail within a article by Dylan Darling on October 23,2009 in the Record Searchlight titled “ Salmon stranded by low north state river levels”. Guess what- they sure could have used a few 1,000 of the deep, cool dredger holes to layover in and survive. But death to the fish was preferable in 2009 rather than have a few dredgers around. And even now the radical environmental movement is desperately trying to remove the dams on the Klamath and no matter that clean renewable resources for electricity are a state mandate, tear’m out anyway. Please see example #16- In the Record Searchlight June 3,2008 is yet a article by Frank Galusha on the subject” Dam removal advocates ignore lethal consequences”. Also losing control of the water flows to facilitate fish migration and river levels does not matter to the radicals, just pretty insanity. Please see examples #17-#18-#19-#20-# 21. 5 articles from the Record Searchlight by Ryan Sabelow , Dylan Darling, Jeff Barnard and the associated press also. This series of articles are in a long time span dealing with the biological mess on the Klamath . The Klamath is already an extremely sick river beset by green algae and deadly bacteria and without controls the insidious bio-organisms will finish off what remains from the fishermen onslaught and the tribes insidious gill netting practices. But yet again we will not allow any dredging.
Gill nets are decimating the fisheries with the total annihilation of the species and even the fishermen are throwing a fit as they pay many hundreds of millions of dollars to fish what’s left. I utilized GOOGLE to document this horrendous slaughter and will include 1/1000th of the genocide by fishermen AND gill nets. Please see examples #22 and #23 and do so at your own peril as it is NOT pretty. I am also adding an appendix of articles backing my contention that this wholesale slaughter ABSOLUTELY MUST STOP or the species will perish along with us dredgers. Appendix #1-Nov. 06, 2009-The Fishing Report –Gillnets Take Most of the Trinity Salmon Run “ . Appendix #2-Also Record Searchlight Nov. 6,2009 by D. Darling titled “Are Gill Nets decimating Klamath and Trinity salmon runs” . Also Sports Illustrated article from June 1979 titled” Clamor Along The Klamath by Robert Jones see appendix #3. Also From the south Bay Riders-a motorcycle club from April 26,2009 titled” Trinity & Klamath Salmon Doomed because of Indians” appendix #4. North Coast Journal, by Gillis, from Nov. 12, 2009 titled “ Sport Fishermen accuse tribes of bogarting the fall salmon run” appendix #5. Record Searchlight Oct.23,2010 by John Spencer ,titled “Steelhead :Truly the prize of freshwater” appendix #6. Record Searchlight By D. Darling on Dec 9,2009 titled “ Are gill nets decimating Klamath and Trinity salmon runs”. appendix #7.
No matter what the user group is, they are all universally repulsed by the cornucopia of multiple nets strung across the trinity and Klamath river confluence. These photos show row upon row upon row of gill nets and no fish can possibly migrate up either river. I do not care who, what, or where you are, NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO SLAUGHTER A SPECIES to all our detriment no matter what” rights” insanity they want to throw. Best story of the bunch was how the tribes got caught with thousands of extra fish but because someone “forgot??” to file the harvest plan nothing happened?? Sic sic sic.
To now add insult to injury in all it’s benevolence the CDFG has gleefully announced that summer salmon fishing is OK’d for the Feather, Sacramento and American, and the Chinook season is also opened now that we got rid of them insidious dredgers. Now all is bright and let the wholesale slaughter begin anew. Please see example #24 But this failed EIR mandates we do not have the right to dredge which has never produced a ticket for harming a single salmon. This is not application of law it’s downright discrimination to serve the massive environmental lobby who think even 1 dredge is too much in THEIR RIVERS as gleefully announced at the SEIR meeting in Redding.
Thankfuly a group of water districts have chosen to sue over this insane opening of the salmon killing season. They too feel the bite as it costs the farming folks hundreds of millions in mitigation and lost crops but YAHOO let the killing begin says the CDFG. Example # 25.
KARUK VS THE 49er Club
This storm of lawsuits has drug on for many years through many courts in many jurisdictions. Finally an Alameda County judge gave them what they wanted. If you shop long enough, with deep enough pockets you eventually win, especially in the SF bay area. This EIR mandated by the court was in relation to the Klamath River basin but lo and behold since they were at it was decided, lets just throw in a whole state ban and do away with them dredgers everywhere no matter that over 90% of the state never even saw a salmon, just a good excuse to serve their lobbyist masters with deep pockets.
Well the ungodly PR from the 49ers has indeed spread it’s cancer to the whole state and nation. It may come as a shock to the Karuk, and many others, is that the majority of the miners also oppose such perversion of the mining laws. Gobble up 40-50-60 80 miles of river and people are going to get mad. Add in desecration of Indian burial sights, desecration of holy ceremonies, EPA mandating of a closure of Happy Camp and a hazardous waste site mercury cleanup, to the halls of congress with the headlines” Massive Land Grab on Western Rivers”. The mining laws were completely changed to reclassify all claims over 10 to a business status, charge rent for under 10 and increase claim filing fees by 1000 %. And currently the Oregon Governor appeals to the federal government for Relief from massive influx of 49ers as advertised on their website. The Rogue gets invaded by California dredgers and on and on and on. I am adding to the appendix #8, a 16 page article from the North Coast Journal August 30, 2007 that mirrors the Karuk stance, the miners stance and the horrendous troubles brewed up by huge clubs concentrating usage in a miniscule area, same as CDFG proposes with this failed SEIR seasons and closures.
There was a live broadcast over the radio 4/12/11 with Stopher CDFG, Trucker Karuk tribe and GPAA newbie. The whole gist of the exchange was yet again, as always, the 49ers this and the 49ers that and the worst part is I felt sorry for the Karuk trying to deal with this insanity even as the dredge ban runs me into bankruptcy. Oh yes I forgot there are no socio-economic ramifications—such mindless drivel.
Conclusions from the delusions of a failed EIR,
This SEIR states we do massive damage to the environment. To that I must absolutely say pure unadulterated hogwash. Example #26-I defer to the erosion study conducted by the USDA Forest Service “A comparison of stream materials moved by mining suction dredge operations to the natural sediment yield rates”. The Siskiyou natural sedimentation is estimated to be over 331,000 cubic yards of NATURAL EROSION from mass movement and normal erosion. The dredgers survey state the total state yardage dredged was approximately. 3,550 cubic yards. There are over 60 forest areas and 11,100 drainages and our total movement is barely 10% of the natural erosion rate of a SINGLE FOREST and less than 0.0000000000012% of the states natural erosion rate.. Once again the SEIR tries to deceive and fails miserably in the light of day utilizing a comparative analysis.
The national Sportsmen Association polled America to see what percentage of the population utilizes what sports and dredgers are such a miniscule number we didn’t even rate as existing. But yet we are shown to be a massive destructive mob. Hogwash. See example #27.
I would like to also introduce a chart utilized in the 1994 dredge committee meetings that shows and tell the whole truth on where we dredge. See example #28- Also the best is at the last #9 as Federal Mining regulations supersede State dredging regulations on Federal claims. Rule of law falls on federal statures and supersedes state authority. We are regulated by the Forest service, Bureau Of Land Management, Bureau of Reclaimation , SMARA, Army Corp of Engineers, State Water Quality Board, The Clean Water Act, The ESA list, EPA, OSHA,MINOSCHA, scenic rivers, wild and scenic rivers, a a dozen forest classifications both federal and state mandating who, what and when we can do anything ever?? And in the soup lets throw in CDFG for good measure.
This SEIR also puts forth the delusion that a “SPECIAL PERMIT” can be issued for dredging which is absolutely false. Not for location or length of season . These are the only specials that are important. During the Gray administration the rich lobbyists slipped in a rider to the state budget, of all things, effectively killing CDFG ability to issue any substantial specials. We miners fought long and hard to fight this incredulous violation of departmental abilities. If they don’t have the expertise to issue a lousy special—what are they doing regulating dredging in the first place? See example #29 for appeal of the CDFG right to issue specials. Then Mr. Banky Curtis dropped the bomb on Jan. 15,1992 and not only were all of our multiyear specials on the Sacramento killed but all specials within the stae also. See. Example #30.
The latest greatest game now by CDFG is to constantly feed into high and low sierra foothill stream fish that are not indigenous to our state and they are devastating the yellow legged frog but all the better to close these waters too. But of coarse not to fishermen whom they plant the killers for, only them nasty dredgers who create spawning grounds. Dredgers are the only user group that actually benefits the fish, We provide stable aireated spawning gravels presized to their specific genesis requirements. Dredgers created the protected spawning habitat on the New River. When the Clear creek habitat restoration projects took place a dredge was utilized. When the EPA had to remove over a ½ million cubic yards of sludge from Keswick Dam they used a dredge. A dredge is the EPA mandate as the absolute best mode of recovery utilizing currently existing technology. It’s called BAT-best available technology and blessed on The Yukon River in Alaska as a great recovery tool with impact minimus. You cannot mandate what technology cannot provide. I personally redesigned dredges to be extremely environmentally friendly and these designs are now the industry standard. But our mere miniscule presence is the offence here also.
What is also extremely disturbing is that the state in 11/11/06 finalized a California Enviromental Analysis of Suction Dredging and explicitly mandated our dredging is MINIMUS IMPACTUS and thus blessed to continue. See example #31- Thence enter the multi million dollar consortium to not only attack dredging in the courts but lobby the legislature with pockets full of cash and goodies to get their own sick mandate fulfilled no matter what the science. The cost of a multi-year multi-pronged attack with AB1032, SB670 and a host of court suits is millions. To have a court in Alameda County and the State Legislature SIMULTANEOUSLY ,same day, almost the same hour , kill dredging was a radical mandate pushed through with much cash, favors and deceptions. The hypothetical Miners movement even made a special pact with Steinburg for the committee meeting limiting the discussion to 15/20 minutes to determine the future of 3,200 dredgers, half a dozen manufactures, dozen stores,12,000 jobs on the line, and the economic viability of the river folks to make a living selling campsites, supplies ,food, gas and materials. 3 hypothetical representatives , back door deal, jumped to the table and pushed all others out of the way. Standing and waiting were at least 30 dredgers , many professional full time dredgers, with at least 600 years of experience, denied their right to even speak out on their livelihood. But Siskiyou supervisor droned on 3500 square miles,2,000 folks, 500 cows blah blah blah. Then the 49er lawyer addresses the committee and essentially wants the committee to prove dredging is wrong. I have cherished the CD from the Senate hearing as Mr. Steinburg stammers something to the effect,” Oh my god not another damn lawyer”. Followed up by PLP Mr. Elmer Fudge-the 1872 mining laws say I can—Steinburgh interrupts “Are you reading from a prepared statement” No of coarse not stammers Elmer-and continues”The 1872 mining laws. Game over we were murdered as the committee kept hammering away with questions about mercury, impacts, riparian habitats and on and on and none of them could answer. At the last minute when we were required to simply utter-I am for or against SB670 I jumped in the hotseat and pleaded to answer their questions. I further stated that I has personally prepared and mailed to every committee member a comprehensive 20+ page package weeks earlier with documented evidences from the EPA and many other agencies proving our innocence. Well NOT A 1 HAD EVEN READ A SINGLE WORD. I kept pushing and was a few seconds from the Sargent of Arms and his boys bouncing me out of there and into jail. I shut up like a fool, should have stayed and gone to jail to raise the roof on this SB670 paid for sham skam flimflam. The gentlemen in his $20,000 doe skin beaded suit was absolutely jubilant as the lobby cash once again ruled the day. The day that dredging died.
The evidence provided within this SEIR comment is proven fact and documentation included, not just a list of authors, BUT the real documents to prove authenticity of facts, figures and ungodly horrors commited by the chosen few to our exclusion.
The real question is not if dredging is deleterious to fish….
The real question is, are fishermen deleterious to fish…
The real question is, are gill nets deleterious to fish..
The real question is, are boaters deleterious to fish
And lastly and most importantly is CDFG policy and this failed SEIR deleterious to fish??
No longer respectfully, John Oates,
Miners Alliance Board and Founding Member
THIS IS THE ABRIDGED SHORT EDITION WITH ALL EVIDENCE,PICTURES AND GRAPHS DELETED-John
Jun 12, 2012, 12:08 PM
Wow John.....Now I can see why you get a little defensive when
comments are made about dredging....Thanks for posting this
information....it is well written and to the point. Gold Nuggets
It's amazing just how much treasure people loose and we manage to find.
Jun 12, 2012, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by gold nuggets
Yes it is.
In all the years I've seen Johns posts thrown here and there all over the internet, he has never been able to string a comprehensible sentence together.
So who wrote this for you John?
Jun 12, 2012, 02:39 PM
Gold Dredger 2nd Generation
Hoser, man that is a short version. Respect as always, some of us have to tell it how it is.
The copy you gave me last summer almost killed my ink cartridge in my printer.
But it was sure a dang good read, the full version and many other great comment letters can be found on the CDFG site here: Suction Dredge Permitting Program - California Department of Fish and Game
Jun 13, 2012, 07:10 AM
Jeffro you need to back off of Hoser!he has done more to help fight for our rights than most of us combind! i dont blaim him one bit for being pizzed at the situation,and some of the stupid comments some people make without knowing the facts!
Originally Posted by Jeffro
Jun 13, 2012, 08:58 AM
hahaha--I paint with crayons on forums like these for the mentally handicapped such as yourself Jeffro so you can at least have some inkling about what I pontificate fool. John
Jun 13, 2012, 09:35 AM
Very informative and well written, if we could just get the fools who make these decisions to read it....
Last edited by Oakview2; Jun 13, 2012 at 09:42 AM.
"The most inspiring thing about gold, is not the value, but under magnification, the true beauty of each piece. They are truly like snowflakes that never melt." Oakview2
Jun 13, 2012, 10:10 AM
I like both your styles of writing. It's just a shame folks like yourself, with so much intimate knowledge all aspects of the subject being discussed and regulated, are not welcome at the table for the entire process. We are being regulated out of public lands one user at a time. What people don't realize is we are being regulated out of our rights on private property as well.
Take care John,
Jun 13, 2012, 10:34 AM
Incremental ism is the stauts quo for the opposition. You don't cook a frog in boiling water, you put him in a pot of cool water and slowly turn the heat up until its cooked and doesn't realize it...
"The most inspiring thing about gold, is not the value, but under magnification, the true beauty of each piece. They are truly like snowflakes that never melt." Oakview2
Jun 13, 2012, 12:32 PM
I don't blame him for being pizzed at the situation either. One thing I do know is McDonalds NEVER downtalks Burger King. Sure, they compete. But they do it PROFESSIONALLY.
Originally Posted by russau
When I see miners sniping miners I know it ain't good.
Next thing you know John'll be taking pot shots at the Massies, or the Hoffmans, or the Reeves, or Reed, or even you Russ..... if you happen to do something he doesn't agree with.
All I've said this whole thread is for John to place the blame where it's due, at the eco-freaks and the Karuks. Tearing other miners to bits is only helping them destroy us. That's sheer stupidity.
Don't particularly care what John thinks of Dave or the 49ers, I think you've got a well written fact based little essay there. Stick to the facts regarding dredging and fight on those merits..... not what you feel about another mining group.
Oh and by the way John, trying to use big words you're not accustomed to is archaic and shows a level of desperation.
Get professional John....... we can snipe at each other all day, but it ain't doing anyone any good now is it?
It's pretty much a waste of my time and yours.
Jun 13, 2012, 05:39 PM
time to get over it and move on! John and I agree to disagree on some issues,but we are still friends nomatter! ive got a fairly thick skin(sometimes),and if i dont like something, ill just move on and get over it! when you get to my age, somethings just aint worth the powder to...........well you know what i mean! as we sit here and discusse this or any issue, the wacoenviromentalists are takeing more of our rights away and we dont even know about it yet! they have a plan and we got internet! what a deal!
Jun 14, 2012, 12:28 AM
I agree Russ. The more time miners spend arguing amongst each other is more time they spend winning our rights away from us. No point to it.
Originally Posted by russau
Last edited by Jeffro; Jun 14, 2012 at 01:58 AM.
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