Fastest Gunslinger, enjoy

River Rat

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He's fastest than Quick Draw McGraw
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Amazing!!
 

spartacus53

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He is fast, I'll give him that; but I bet he couldn't beat Yul Brenner after he drank his elixir... :laughing7:
 

Nov 8, 2004
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Hey James, he IS fast, no question, no wonder he has justly won the medals. But I do have a few remarks on it regarding it's use in real life combat.

His holster is completely useless in normal life, he would lose his pistol just walking around or sitting.

What is also missing is his reaction time if another started the draw first.

As a crude example most people need from 1/2 to 1 sec to react to a stimulus, such as another person starting the draw, or whatever.

While in the Border Patrol, my draw and hit a sill. target at 10 ft was around 2/5 - 3/5 ths of a sec, with me initiating the draw, such as he does..

So even though he is far faster, If I started the fight he would be hit before he could draw. While this may not stop him, it would certainly distract his accuracy.

Bill Jordan of the Border Patrol was far faster than I was, in fact he, and Ed McGivern, coached me. Both were really fast combat shots.

Ed could get off 5 shots in a .38 spec revolver with all hits inside a playing card in 2/5 th of a sec, still unbeaten - but not drawing. This is far faster than any conventional machine gun. sheesh.

Final note All of the old west gunslingers were killers by instinct, they did not give their opponent any chance. They drew first with the intent to hit & kill you. None were good enough to simply, deliberately, wound you, or to shoot a pistol out of your hand as portrayed in the movies. Generally the one that started the draw first, was the one that won.

However none of this is to detract what this gentleman can, and does do. The only question that I might have is regarding his accuracy. I would like to examine his cartridges, were they full power & used solid lead projectiles?

Don Jose d eLa Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist"
 

sniffer

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I don't care what anyone says, that guy is fast. and even if you drew first on that guy, with his speed and accuracy
you'd still be just as dead
 

spartacus53

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Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
However none of this is to detract what this gentleman can, and does do. The only question that I might have is regarding his accuracy. I would like to examine his cartridges, were they full power & used solid lead projectiles?

You raised a great point there Tayopa, one I didn't even first consider. :icon_thumleft: He was shooting a .45 cal pistol and fired 2 shots almost simultaneously without any kick :icon_scratch: He must have had very little powder in that bullet, but he was fast :tongue3: The trigger must also have been modified to be "real" hair trigger...
 

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Red James Cash
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I wasn't to shabby back in my days either so i'm no greenhorn lol.I probably fired close to 30,000 rounds in my life time. I've read plenty about bill jordan, so i may be older than you think i am. I didnt do competition,i did it for pure fun. I use to put a coin on the back of my hand draw and hit a paper plate size target at 20 feet before the coin hit the ground,from the hip. I used a .41 magnum ruger blackhawk instead of a colt .45. I was better with a rifle though shooting from the hip.Comparing the gunfighters of yesteryear and todays gunfighters is comparing apples and oranges.The outcome will never be known if they ever faced each other. I know all the old gunslingers were killers by nature. I've read theories that they were basically the same as the serial killers we have running around today.So technically they wouldnt have given you the chance to face them.Then again as the man who shot wes hardin in the back said when asked why he did it "I didnt feel like committing suicide facing him". Firepower and speed is good, accuracy is final.Heres another video of Bob Munden doing some shooting at a police range.Between you and bob i would have to put my money on Bob.No offense intended.


 

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Red James Cash
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The trigger must also have been modified to be "real" hair trigger

Actually spartacus he fanned the hammer.With single action revolvers you hold the trigger back and fan the hammer with the palm of your other hand.You can fire all six shoots without having to pull the trigger.
 

The Beep Goes On

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When I saw him on TV my mind was picturing him coming across a bunch of gang bangers when he was packing. I don't think they would have the opportunity to even blink at his speed, if he initiated the action.
 

Nov 8, 2004
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Good evening my friends: first, I was not down playing him as I specifically stated, he earned his title, but was comparing the practicality of his demonstrations against real life, and his rounds. For example it is a well known trick is to load with fine shot, wax bullets, or even Mercury, which could hit the balloon, but in actuality, if a solid projectile was used, miss a man Spartacus caught that nicely.

Even so he is good, very good, obviously.

Sniffer, I agree, but prob. both of us would be If I shot accurately.

James, you have an interesting background. In other words you were / are damn good my friend, damn good. Bill used to have me place a coin on the back of my hand, shoulder height, over a waist high table, draw and hit the target before it hit the table. Essentially what you did.

'He' would catch the coin on the front sight, 1/2 of my distance.

What most here seem to have missed is what is 'his' reaction time from an 'outside' stimulus? As I mentioned most take over 1/2 sec up. In your case James, you are bordering on a 2/5 of a sec draw and hit. If you started it, you would have hit him by the time he started his draw.

Incidentally there is no pistol round that will stop a man that has commenced a hi speed draw, nor can a man 'stop' a high speed draw and shoot, once he has initiated it with the intention of shooting. There is no such thing of stopping because one sees that he has been beaten to the draw, not in high speed draw work.

Another very important point on the old time Gunmen, they had a very distinct edge on someone that hadn't killed anyone. A trained hesitation in a normal person would be fatal against someone with your draw time James. This hesitation can only be cleared up by actually killing someone or with intensive practice.

The Japanese in WW-2 in China used Chinese captives as bayonet practice for their troops. They found that after bayonetting a Chinese prisoner there was no further hesitation in the future. Many Japanese were courtmartialed for refusing and were executed themselves.

Incidentally, Kieth started me in long range pistol work. I used the S&W .357 Hi-way Patrol model with a 4" barrel and Keith long range front sights, the Keith semi wadcuter in front of 14.4 grains of 2400

As you may guess, I am a pistol nut. In the attachment I am in the front row, extreme left.


Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist"
 

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RGINN

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Great post, Tayopa. You're cutting them some slack on the 1/2 to 1 second reaction time, I think. It's more like 2 to 3, I believe, which is an eternity in a gunfight. There is a difference between competition and combat shooters, and most folks don't cross the line between the two. Jordan did, Dan Combs of the OHP did, and probably Jelly Bryce of the FBI did. The guy in the video is very good, and I couldn't do that, but how would he perform if the target was jumping around and shooting back? I know guys who can put six bullets in the same hole, but I always figured if I could get one off quicker than the other guy and put him down I was an expert marksman.
 

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Red James Cash
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Nice picture Tayopa, hats off to you for being border patrol :thumbsup:. My mom use to bring me home American riflemans magazines from where she worked when i was a kid.You could say it became my bible. I use to read articles about Bill jordan,probably read some about the other guys that were mentioned here too. So its kind of a privilege talking to somebody that knew him. I never had any formal training like that except from my brother.He use to take me shooting back when i was a wet behind the ears 11 12 13 14 year old. Living in Mass made it quite difficult unless he took me. I'm basically selftaught in the things i want to learn. Reading and common sense were my basic firearms training tools though i wont deny what my brother taught me about marksmanship.That S.O.B. could and still does shoot the hell out of his hawkens .44 rifle, made me feel kind of sorry for any NVA that got in range of his M14 :laughing9: . I'm talking hitting a quarter at 200 yards over iron sights,i couldnt even see the thing :laughing9: . He was into blackpowder, thats what i learned first. I owned my first pistol at 15. A colonial .44 percussion single shot. He never taught me fast draw. I started getting into that after moving to NH at 18 and getting my hands on a Ruger super single six .22 .22 magnum. I had my own target range out in the back yard. Huge dead oak tree i use to tack home made paper plate targets to.I bet you could pick a couple of hundred pounds of lead out of it ;D . I shot every day. Guess you could say that that was my thing. A normal day was coming home from work and banging off 100 to 300 rounds of .22, or what ever day light permited.Weekends easily 500 to 1000 rounds if not more.I got into mid bore shooting after I picked up a llama .357 4" barrel. I shot mostly .38 special with that because i bought it used. After the .357 was pretty much worn loose (also fired quite a bit of .357 out of it) i saved up and bought the .41 mag Ruger 4 5/8" barrel. Very nice gun,very rugged. It could handle loads up to .44 mag specs. Because of the ammo price i got into hand loading with a lee pocket handloader,15 bucks back then for it. A little slow reloading but it served its purpose.I could load a 100 or so rounds in a couple of hours.Its been a while and i forget my powder loads but i used a 210 grain semi jacked softnose on every one.No problems at all reaching out to a 6" by 6" steel plate at 100 yards that i had hanging from a tree branch.Do that with the crap 9mms that are shoved down police and soldiers throats lol, I never had any use for those.At the time i loved instinct shooting and started using a rifles also.It came to be nothing to smoke a cigarette,flick the butt 15 or so feet away then shoot it when it hit the ground from the hip.For moving targets i use to throw tincans onto an old house roof,that was on our property, and shoot at the cans as they rolled down,just pointing the rifle from the shoulder looking over the barrel. I never timed myself on the draw,it didnt really matter to me, it was all in fun.Those were the days,some of the best days of my life. I did that routine everyday (weather permitting)for almost 9 solid years. Sorry for the reminiscing guys.Some real good times back then growing up. Life caught up to me and I moved back to Mass to try to start a band about 20 years ago. I had to sell most of my guns i bought over the years. I refused and still do refuse to take a training course just to get an F.I.D. card or a pistol permit. I kind of take it as an insult. As a friend of my brothers said to me,Who is going to be training who. I still do own a couple of guns but theyre at my brothers house 200 miles away and i dont get to go there very often.One reason im moving back to NH asap. I want to get back into it even though im 50 years old now.Hopefully its like riding a bike lol.
 

Ray S S

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Hello, Red James Cash, you started a very interesting post here with several very good replies. Back around 1969,
I bought a High Standard, double action, 9-shot revolver with the 4" barrel just to practice the fast-draw. The holster,
unlike the ones shown here, hung straight up and down my leg with the open cut-out for fast-draw.When doing it, I
always stood on a rug that I spread out on the ground out behind the barn, for privacy. I discovered how easy it is to
drop it before you get the full smooth motion. LOL. I had read a few articles in the American Rifleman and a few
other gun magazines about the fast-draw and was real interested in it. If I remember correctly, it was in the late
50's that that I read an article about Sammy Davis Jr. (the movie actor and one of the famous Rat-pack in Hollywood)
It showed several scenes with slow-motion movie film of guys doing their draw during a competition and showing
the timing. At that time he was the fastest one recorded. I had a lot of enjoyment learning how to do that, although
I had no connections with any one who had any interest in it I think that I got to be pretty fast at it, but I had
nothing to compare myself with. I eventually sold the set to a guy I worked with in the mid 80's.
Have a good day and have a Happy New Year.
Ray
 

dirt doctor

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I'm an ok shot with a pistol , rifle or shotgun certainly nothing special . As I've gotten older my favorite shooting is either with my Ruger Mark1 22 or a BB pistol trying to keep the holes close together on paper or plinking cans .Once in a while I'll shoot each of my other types of guns just to keep them feeling familiar and make sure they are functioning properly . I was introduced to guns at an early age . I am a staunch believer in the 2nd amendment as only free men own guns . I enjoyed seeing these videos and reading the posts of you guys who are quite skilled with your firearms .
Happy New Year to all and be safe in everything you do .
 

Nov 8, 2004
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Very interesting posts gentlemen: More. I had a long page set up last night, but somehow, it disappeared between sending and appearing in here. I will repost it tonight.

Meanwhile, I definitely encourage all of you to post. It is all interesting, whether you use the latest .90 cal. canon, slingshot, or spear let us know what you enjoy.

Obviously "fast and fancy " pistol work is our primary interest, but all forms are interesting. Don't let the fact that some of us have trained ourselves intensively for various reasons cause you to be hesitant. You are just as important. POST !



"Don Jose de La Mancha
{I exist to Live, not live to exist
 

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Red James Cash
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Hi Ray how are you doing? I had one of those H&R 9 shots also at one point.I think i paid 35 bucks for it off of a friend,early 80s i believe.That gun didnt like me for some reason :laughing9: After owning it for a while the casings use to get jammed in the cylinder,what a pain in my you know what. I tried everything,even polishing the chamber walls with fine emery cloth and then crocus cloth. Actually i use to strip all my guns down and polish the parts using only crocus cloth being careful not to remove to much metal.There were times i had to stick a thin screw driver down the cylinder holes and bang the casings out with a hammer.I never owned another H&R after that. I use to wear my holster low too, the pistols handle a little higher than my hand when its hanging at my side.Tying the bottom of the holster with a string around your thigh helps quite a bit too. When i first started i dropped the gun many a time too,you werent alone :laughing9:. I used pillows piled around my feet when i practiced in my bedroom :laughing9: I also use to use an old car of mine as a target,minus the gas tank ,engine,tranmission. Dont believe the movies when the hero hides behinds a car during a gunfight. ;D For an example of 12 gauge slug penetration I used federal 1 1/4 ounce slugs in a remington 870 pump. From about 25 yards I aimed at the corner of the passenger side quarter panel above the tail light. The slug went through the quarter panel through the back seat through the front seat through the dashboard out the firewall and through the fender. Lesson,dont hide behind a car if somebody is shooting slugs at you lol. I did alot of experimenting with bullet penetration. .22s have more penetration than most people think. Point blank out of a rifle a .22 will go through 2 2" by 6" planks and bury itself in the 3rd. A .22 will go completely through 2 car doors unless it hits the window mechanism. .38 specials arent much of a penetration round. Neither is 20 gauge 00 buckshot,it only put dents a 55 gallon steel drum.One 12 gauge load i made up was pretty effective, pull the 00 buckshot out and replace it with .50 muzzle loading lead. Ball bearings were pretty nasty too :wink:. One fun gun i had was a .22 copy of an M16. It held 17 in the mag and one in the chamber. Nice plinking gun, lots of rounds to make the tincans dance. An M1 carbine is alot of fun to shot too.Back in the day i picked one up for i think 185 bucks,Ive been checking prices on them lately and its become ridiculous, I mean 600 to 800 for one..Yup im kicking myself in the a$$ for selling mine lol. One .22 semi auto rifle i had,stevens savage,i forget the model but it was tube mag fed.Every once and a while it would go full automatic.One time the ejector ripped the .22 casing in half and left the other half stuck in the chamber,the next round that went through went off with it only halfway in the chamber.Made my ears ring for quite a while. I retired that gun after that lol. Never had any problems with the ruger .41, if anybody is looking for a single action pistol for hunting etc. i highly suggest it. Same with the remington 870 pump, both nice guns and they wont let you down. I never even came close to having an accident with a gun, as long as you always respect it they will serve you. I did my share of fooling around but i never lost a bit of respect. Let your guard down once through neglect and disrespect you could pay for it. As Alan ladd said in the movie shane "a gun is a tool and its only as good or as bad as the man holding it". The same applies to a knife a hammer or driving a car.

Very interesting posts gentlemen: More. I had a long page set up last night, but somehow, it disappeared between sending and appearing in here. I will repost it tonight.

I hate it when that happens Tayopa,get it up lets read it lol. I dont get to talk guns to much anymore with anybody.Its getting in my blood again lol.
 

Dano Sverige

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It all means dip ...! I could shoot you all..AND bob munden in the back...and i'm a Brit' who according to you lot haven't invented guns yet etc!! :laughing9: :tongue3:

Spart mate....even I know the old gunslingers used to tie the trigger to the trigger guard with a piece of twine and just fan the hammer of single action guns! :tongue3:
 

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Red James Cash
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Spart mate....even I know the old gunslingers used to tie the trigger to the trigger guard with a piece of twine and just fan the hammer of single action guns!

That would be a pretty dumb move on whoever did that to their peacemaker and i doubt you could find a documented case of any pro gunslinger doing that. The risk of accidental discharge would be incredible :laughing9: you might as well play russian roulette by loading five chambers keeping the sixth empty.There were no safeties on Colt .45 SAAs or peacemakers except resting the hammer on an empty chamber.Tie the hammer back,what happens then if you shirt sleeve catches on the hammer spur? You would then be a one legged gunslinger. Amateur move on some fools part if it ever happened.
 

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