I been ponderin.

[bigscoop]

I'd say there is a difference between me legally carrying in Toys R Us against their wishes, and a tweaker coming through my window at night. That viewpoint hardly makes me a hypocrit.

There is absolutely no difference if you have been asked not to.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[TheMcs]

I'd say there is an extraordinary difference between a person with intention to harm, and a person keeping to themselves.

I understand the point you are making, but you & I have different opinions.

 

[packerbacker]

I completely understand your side of this debate scoop but I think you are missing my "key" argument which is, nobody that means to do harm is going to read, much less obey, any signs. The sign isn't there to stop any crimes, it's there to help alleviate any responsibility should something bad happen. That's just a lawyer/insurance company thing which shows what is really wrong with this country; the court system, dumb jurors and woefully forgiving parole boards. My feelings are that you might someday wish that you had an honest, armed patron in your establishment; probably never will but, you "might". My contention is that most wars aren't started by guns but the victor of those wars is usually decided by them. If I were in a group of 500 legal, concealed weapons carriers and I knew they were ALL packing, I would feel much safer than being in a group of 3 or 4 gangbangers or even in one of your stores with "unknown" customers.

 

[packerbacker]

You are right about respecting the wishes of someone concerning their property and I do agree, if you made a point of asking me not to carry when I visit you at your home, I would not carry and I'd respect your request. I would even obey your request if the sign was on the front door of your home but, to me, a store is a business and I would consider it "public" property as John Q has access without asking.
By me carrying and you having that sign to protect yourself I wouldn't be hurting you; the responsibility would be on me and I can accept that.

 

[bigscoop]

A business is not public property. It is private property that is open to a public that is expected to regard the property rules, weather they agree with those rules or not. You either respect those rules or you don't. I am a smoker, but I won't even take one of those smokeless cigs into a public area where smoking is restricted. Why? Because I respect the property rules enough not to show my disrespect for them, or I simply don't visit the property. Once I do go onto one of these properties I certainly am not going to sue the property owner because someone else decided to light up and is blowing smoke in my face. Businesses can only do so much to keep their customers safe, and that means all of their customers, not just you and me. This is why many choose to restrict guns, the less guns, the less likely there will be an incident involving guns. The odds that the average store will get robbed at gun point is slim, the odds that someone will have a gun pulled on them in their lifetime is minute. Store owners who post these signs are simply playing the odds because it's just too expensive put all the other measures in place. But make no mistake, businesses are not public property and they can, and have, pressed charges many times against those who violate their store policies. There are laws on the books that allow them to do this.

 

[packerbacker]

Which store policies? Shoplifting? That is also a "law". Requesting people that legally carry to not bring guns into their establishments is a policy but that's it. It's not a "Law" so what could a person be charged with?? They can be asked to leave and never come back but what could they be prosecuted for? Those signs are to take responsibility off the property owner's back, that's all. Now, if I were to come into your store with my gun blazing, now THAT'S disrespect.
For your reasons, your arguments are true and valid in every respect but I choose to not pretend I'm walking around in some sort of make believe utopia. Stuff happens. I have life insurance, homeowner's insurance, health insurance, car insurance and self insurance.

 

[bigscoop]

As one poster already mentioned, "trespassing" is one option you can legally be charged with. The fact that you entered the store with the firearm and disregarded the obvious posted policy permits the trespassing claim to come into play. It may not stick, but it will cost you a court date and probably some $$$$ to boot. The fact that you entered the store with a concealed firearm, if it was noticed, could also lead to you being suspected of committing a crime, which can lead to all sorts of inconveniences for you if the property owner/business wishes to make a point of it. Just because you have a legal carry permit it does not clear the way for you carry that firearm anywhere you wish, and this includes private properties that clearly post their restricting of firearms.

 

[packerbacker]

This is how Colorado handles the situation. It is NOT against the law, even if signed by the property owner, unless they ask you to leave and you refuse. THEN you are trespassing. In almost all situations I would either not enter the establishment or I would lock it up in my vehicle. It is poor "PR" for concealed carry if you ignore everyone's "request" to not carry in their stores but it is not illegal, at least in Colorado. It's like posting a sign that reads, "If you're a butthead, don't enter this store". It's not illegal for me to enter but, if the owner or his reps feel I qualify as a butthead and they ask me to leave, it's illegal for me not to.
“No Firearm” signs in Colorado have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are asked to leave you must leave. Always be aware of the possibility that responding Police Officers who may have been called without your knowledge and may not know the laws on trespass etc. could arrest you even if you are within the law.
In Missouri it's a different story but I don't know what the penalty would be if charged

 

[Frankn]

Bigscoop, I think the problem here is you are confusing "Private Property" with "Commercial Property". Frank

 

[Chadeaux]

There is absolutely no difference if you have been asked not to.

But there is a H U G E difference.

One is there peacefully to do business, the other is there to do harm - premeditated - to the property owner.

How is that the same?

The store owner did not say: "My business is closed, do not enter."

When I close and lock my doors and set my perimeter alarm on my home, it is the same as saying: "I am home and do not wish to have visitors." . . . in effect, my home is closed.

That is where the difference comes in --- the person coming into my home is the same type of criminal that would be going into a closed business.

Criminals, not citizens, need to be policed. Until the gun control folks understand that, you will always be blaming inanimate objects for the crimes committed by criminals.

Let's get rid of the criminals, then the inanimate objects won't be harming anyone.

 

[Red James Cash]

This is why many choose to restrict guns, the less guns, the less likely there will be an incident involving guns.

This is the problem,the criminal is not going to comply with your wishes.You can have all the signs you want to have in front of your store,the criminal will not pay them any mind.All youre doing is advertising to the criminal that no armed citizens are present in your store.So in truth youre making it easier for the criminal.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Those signs have no weight of law in Florida, however you can be asked to leave and if you refuse to leave you can be charged with armed trespassing.



Thought some might like these........... http://www.equalizerllc.com/documents/nogunnomoney_nostate.pdf

 

[Chadeaux]

Looks almost like it was made to print on an Avery business card template.

Very nice. Thanks TH.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Looks almost like it was made to print on an Avery business card template.

Very nice. Thanks TH.

 

[xtrmdigger]

Anyone reading this post should also think about Erik Scott and his legal carry in a Las vegas Costco. He was killed after an employee saw his pistol and didn't ask him to leave. They dialled 911 and screamed gun!
http://joemiller.us/2012/06/cops-gun-down-west-pointer-for-legally-carrying-firearm/
In MS the signs must say "Carrying of firearms and revolvers prohibited" AND be legible from 10' I've yet to see one that complies with both!

 

[XLTer]

Excellent thread guys . Treasure Hunter , those cards are great . I'll be printing some off for myself & friends . Thanks !

 

[jeff of pa]

Anyone reading this post should also think about Erik Scott and his legal carry in a Las vegas Costco. He was killed after an employee saw his pistol and didn't ask him to leave. They dialled 911 and screamed gun!
Cops Gun Down West Pointer for Legally Carrying Firearm | Restoring Liberty
In MS the signs must say "Carrying of firearms and revolvers prohibited" AND be legible from 10' I've yet to see one that complies with both!

I don't read signs on doors. half the time I don't even see an open/closed sign.

 

[Frank1960]

As stated I think you would be asked to leave first if not then your breaking a law. The crooks aren't going to pay attention to that sign and I have a carrying permit I am going to carry until they confiscate all firearms I think we should be allowed to protect ourselves and if you do have a carry permit then I would hope that you took a good class that would teach you the check things out before drawing or shooting to minimise damage to bystanders and property.

Another question for you folks what is the best handgun to carry?

 

[truckinbutch]

1 - that's one reason I load hollow points in my EDC. If the bullet exits the body, collateral damage would be negligible.
2 - basic firearm training teaches you to know what's behind your target. A responsible carrier will have done enough mental prep to remember this in a SHTF/high adrenaline scenario.

1- I also carry police issue tactical ammo to minimize the risk of unintended consequences .
2-None of my training has included blindly blasting away in a crowded environment . Tactical advantage and the safety
of those around you are stressed .
3- CCW places a HUGE burden of responsibility on the carrier . Much larger than that placed upon a police officer .

 

[truckinbutch]

Another question for you folks what is the best handgun to carry?
The one that you can handle and use the most efficiently at close range (21 feet or less) .
Concealability must be taken into consideration as well . If it "prints" you (1)lose tactical advantage (2)Disturb some individuals around you(3)can be held in violation of the law in some jurisdictions .