Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"???

[Orbitz]

Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

Is it unusual to find a 1801 1 reale coin only 4" down?
I found this on Thur. after a heavy night's rain, I hit a
iron target and I dug it, usually I don't dig those, anyway
after I pulled out a small iron piece of pipe, or thats what
it looked like, I went over the hole again and got a very
strong coin tone, I started movoing the dirt around and
that's when I seen the silver, half way out of the dirt, it was
Beautiful!
I went back 2 days in a row and searched around the same hole
and nothing, could that coin have been in the ground for over 200
years and not be any signs of corrosion? I am thinking maybe
someone already had it and recently dropped it, as it was only
4" down, what are your thoughts?
Thanks for reading.

 

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[Frankn]

Re: Is it unusual ?

Some facts to think about, for one ,here in MD. 200 years is only 13 down. From the wear, I would say it was used for many years before it's deposit in the ground. Then there's the erosion factor and possible lack of decaying vegetation in the area to promote coverage. And then there's your theory that it might have been found and later dropped. You have to read between the lines when it comes to date verses dept. You have to remember that things don't sink in the ground. They are covered by dirt and dust in the wind or water and decaying vegetation. If thinks sunk in the ground, you would not see one old headstond.

 

[Swartzie]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

I would say that it's not too unusual at all. I have found an 1808 1/2 reale about 2 inches down. Still pretty shiny. I have found many pieces of native american trade silver that date to the 1760's. The deepest was about 6 inches and they were all shiny right out of the ground. It seems the lighter something is, the less it will sink in the ground.

-Swartzie

 

[HangnMoss]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

The generally accepted theory is that sink rates are determined by the difference in the density of the soil and the density of the sinking object (treasure). The density is measured in g/cm3.

Looser soils and soils higher in organic content are less dense, averaging 1.33 g/cm3 for a medium texture soil with ~ 50% pore space. Reference http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/assessment/files/bulk_density_sq_physical_indicator_sheet.pdf.

Metals have a much higher density. Some of the more common are listed below with their density in g/cm3. Reference http://www.matpack.de/Info/Nuclear/Elements/density.html:
Aluminium 2.70
Iron 7.87
Nickel 8.91
Copper 8.92
Zinc 7.14
Silver 10.49
Tin 7.29
Platinum 21.45
Gold 19.32
Lead 11.34

Generally speaking, the maximum theoretical sink depth can be easily determined. The denser metals will continue to sink until the soil density matches the density of the metal. Depending on the soil composition, this could easily be out of the reach of typical handheld metal detectors.

The sink rate can't be determined so easily, as there are many influencing factors. Some of the stronger influences on sink rate are soil porosity, soil particulate size, rainfall, drainage, object density, orientation, surface area, and object shape. I’ll briefly discuss how each influences sink rate.

The porosity of the soil is a strong contributor to the sink rate (porosity describes the amount of empty space in the soil). In order for the coin to move past the soil impeding it, the soil has to be displaced. The more porous the soil, the more easily soil can be displaced, by filling the empty pockets (pores) in the soil. Soil particulate size is another aspect that influences sink rate. Larger particulates will have a higher density, and will generally be more difficult to displace, as they require larger pores to accept them, and more force to displace them. Having said that, rainfall is probably the strongest contributor to the sink rate, especially in porous souls. During heavy rainfalls, or poor drainage in lighter rainfalls, soil can actually become suspended in the water, allowing it to be more easily displaced by denser objects. Quicksand is a good example of soil suspended in water, although quicksand is an extreme example.

Overall weight, or density, is a major factor in sink rate, but density can be offset by orientation, and surface area. The more surface area that is directly impeded by soil (directly below the object, along its sink path), the more soil will need to be displaced to allow the object to sink. Coins on edge will typically sink faster than coins on their side because less soil needs to be displaced to allow the coin to sink. Items with greater surface areas will generally sink slower, so a silver broach, for example, would sink slower than a gold coin of the same weight, assuming both were oriented the same. The shape of an object also affects sink rate, in the same manner that surface area affects it. Spherical or cylindrical objects, like bullets, are better at displacing soil than say, a button. Bullets were designed to reduce friction, and that same design also allows them to displace soil better. Irregularly shaped objects will generally sink slower, depending on orientation.

Even without taking sink rate into account, there are various other factors that can either increase of decrease the amount of soil covering the object. Silting, organic decay & deposit, wind & water erosion, floods, construction, natural disasters, and many other factors can play a role. Living in the new 'tornado alley', I can tell you that objects can easily be dug up and deposited elsewhere by a tornado.

Sorry for the long-winded response. The short answer is, 'just be happy you found it'.

 

[Frankn]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

HangnMoss, Do you really think things sink in the ground? Think about it ! All the headstones are still there. They haven't sunk. Heavy stones with a small base area and they haven't sunk!! Things don't sink in the ground. They may be covered by decaying vegetation, erosion carried over by water or wind, but unless it is a swamp, they don't sink. I have seen things laying in the desert, year after year in the same place. They didn't sink. Different areas have different decay rates and errosion rates that account for different depts of found objects. Then there's the fact that you don't know when the were accually lost.
The sink rate theory works well in water, but not on solid areas.

 

[lostcauses]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

Orbitz
You took photos with your phone.
Data embedded in your photo tells me exactly were you took the photo
You might want to read this thread:
TreasureNet Forum (tm) > Our Community > General Discussion Topic: Protect your sites - I-Phone Warning
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,456609.0.html

 

[Orbitz]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

Orbitz
You took photos with your phone.
Data embedded in your photo tells me exactly were you took the photo
You might want to read this thread:
TreasureNet Forum (tm) > Our Community > General Discussion Topic: Protect your sites - I-Phone Warning
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,456609.0.html

Thanks for the warning, however I do not use an IpHone, however if you think you can get
the location of the park I go to, go for it, it's not really a secret lol, in fact if you like, you can name the park
in your reply
HH

 

[Frankn]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

A lot of the new cameras Are GPS enabled. The info can be removed in photoshop and some other image programs.

 

[lostcauses]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

Posted to your reply

Contact me (PM) to remove it if you desire;

I take it this might be were you live? it is were you took a photo fer sure.

Removed and added Devon st. Norfolk

It is a personal security issue that exists, Just saying.

All the meta data attached€
Image Date: 2012-03-02 17:58:53 (no TZ)
Focal Length: 4.3mm
Color Space: sRGB
GPS Coordinate: 36° and so on ( removed )
GPS Altitude: 1.399m

 

[lostcauses]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

Back to the topic and whys of depth of items. It will depend on they type of soil or aggregate (dirt, gravel, the combination, and so on).
The amount of water, condition of freezing and thawing, and even vibration of the ground from mechanical devices such as auto etc.

All these conditions can allow movement of a object in the ground depending upon is mass and size. Think gold panning when the specific gravity of gold is higher than other material staying in the pan ( Heaver in mass sizes ratio to other material).

Yes relics and artifact will move in the ground. This is before a lawn, a farm or other activity by man can even move it around in the ground further.

 

[Frankn]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

Lostcauses, Think gold panning, they usually have water in them! Think about that grave yard again. Those headstones are still there on the surface and I don't think anyone moved in the ground. So things don't sink and they don't move in the ground! Use common logic, not scientific principals that don't apply.
The specific gravity rule only applies to a solid placed in a liquid, not a solid on a solid. To prove the point place a gold nugget on a peace of aluminum foil and wait for the higher SG gold to sink in the lower SG aluminum foil. They would bury you before that happens.

 

[fistfulladirt]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

I found a 1758 at 5" deep, the two silver dollars I found were less than 3 " deep. Anything is possible.

 

[Frankn]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

The thing about coins is you have no idea when they were lost. The date only indicates when they were made.

 

[HangnMoss]

Re: Is it unusual ? 1801 1 Reale only 4"

The specific gravity rule only applies to a solid placed in a liquid, not a solid on a solid. To prove the point place a gold nugget on a peace of aluminum foil and wait for the higher SG gold to sink in the lower SG aluminum foil. They would bury you before that happens.

Water is only used as a reference. Kinda like zero is on a Celcius thermometer. Or middle C on a piano.

Apples-to-oranges comparison on the aluminum. Soil is *not* a solid, it is an inhomogeneous porous aggregate. It contains semi-solid and solid, inorganic and organic, particles of varying size. Due to the differences in particle size and density (inhomogeneous), they don't fit together perfectly, leaving plenty of open space (porous).

Because there's empty space, there is room for individual soil particles to be displaced (pushed aside) by a heavier object, thus allow the heavier object to sink. Add water, and the particles are displaced even easier. Figure in the larger pores left by decaying vegetation, worms, ants, and other animals, and it is very possible for a denser object to sink through the surface layer of soil. When you figure in the kinetic energy transferred to that object by falling rain, foot traffic, or any number of outside forces, sinking goes beyond possible to probable. Once the object is below the surface layer, root growth, surface freeze, or any number of outside influences can push it deeper. All this time gravity is coaxing it deeper.

Larger items sink slower because they have a larger surface area, requiring *more soil be displaced* in order to allow sinking. The soil can only compact so much under normal circumstances. Barring extreme influences like floods or earthquakes, which would allow the soil to be reconfigured on a larger scale, larger items just won't sink as fast. Headstones *do* sink - I've seen it - they even start to tilt if they sink unevenly. Look in any old cemetery and you will see evidence of sinking headstones (and footstones, if they're still visible).

Anyone with any construction knowledge at all will tell you objects sink in the earth. Much is done to prevent sinking. The reason for footers in houses is to prevent sinking. You dig to denser soil, and pour a concrete footer with *a larger surface area* to slow sinking as much as possible. Ever seen a flagstone patio installed? Top six inches or so of soil is removed (the less dense soil), and a gravel (aggregate) bed is poured. The larger aggregate will be less likely to sink because of its larger surface area. A compactor is then run over the aggregate to reduce the porosity, thus insuring the aggregate won't be easily displaced by the flagstones. Once that is done, the flagstones are laid. If done right, the flagstones will last generations.

Simple physics, simple engineering, as long as you remember that *soil is not a solid*. It might feel that way when you fall, but look at the depression you leave. You displace soil, and if it will give for you, it will give for a much smaller object.