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  1. #31
    us
    Aug 2017
    Central Oregon.
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hehe, I got permission to hunt on the local Rez, but that was because I knew the chiefs Grand daughter, she put in the good word for me, fishing and metal detecting, No hunting though, I'm fine with that.
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  2. #32

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by yardgoat View Post
    I personally am not worried about some artifact or coin buried/lost along some long forgotten trail or homestead in the woods, especially when the BLM and US forest service goes around and burns down the remains of cabins these pioneers lived in.
    ahh, but your mistake is that you didn't go around asking enough bored archie pencil pushers "can I ?" .
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  3. #33

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfinger450 View Post
    ... I knew the chiefs Grand daughter, she put in the good word for me, fishing and metal detecting, ....
    So let's clarify: you got to "metal detect" at "fort hall", right ? Ok, I'll bite: How'd you do ?

  4. #34
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2012
    Blackfoot, Idaho
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    If you go to the fort hall museum, in nearby city of that name, I believe that escorted trips, out on to the indian reservation, to see the site, can be arranged. There's a historic plaque on the supposed site after all. There's no formal "permit". And there's actual public usable roads on the reservation . Perhaps not to the dead end of the portion of the reservation where the trading post used to be (I think you bump into a gate at a certain point on those particular roads).

    But even if you got a reservation personnel to show you the site, that still doesn't mean you'd be allowed to metal detect. And besides, there is broad debate over whether the marker is on the correct site. All evidence of the site is gone. Ie.: to my knowledge there's no adobe melt, or evidence on the landscape. So there's been some historical debate as to the correct spot.

    Have you ever been out to the site just to look ? Have you ever heard of anyone who (in the company or permission of an indian reservation member) been allowed to detect there ?
    I used to buy a fishing trespass permit every year. I've spent considerable time in the area near the old fort. There used to be a few adobe bricks laying around the site, but that was many years ago. The fort was on the bank of the Snake River. A person could get there easily by jet boat. I've been past the spot many times, while boating the river, but never stopped to look at it. (the site isn't marked at the river) The location isn't actively guarded, so if some scofflaw wanted to detect it, they could. Personally, I'm not interested. The best treasure I got from the reservation was a 7lb 2oz native cutthroat....caught it on a Whitlock Lemon Muddler I tied myself. That was in Nov. of '82, on a dark and stormy day.
    JimClick image for larger version. 

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  5. #35

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho View Post
    ....the site isn't marked at the river ....
    Are you saying that the plaque isn't at the right spot ?

  6. #36
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2012
    Blackfoot, Idaho
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    Nope...I have no idea where they are currently placing the monument. My opinion is that the fort was on the bank of the Snake and very close to Jimmy Creek. That's about 6 1/2 miles west of the current town of Fort Hall, and a little south, and 2 miles due east of McTucker Island on the Snake. That's also where the monument was located 35 years ago. There were a few adobe bricks at that location, too. One thing to keep in mind is that the Snake meanders all over the Fort Hall Bottoms, as that area is called. I've seen it move 1/2 mile in a single high-water season. When I said the site wasn't marked from the river, I meant that when on the river, you have no idea, by looking at the bank, where the site is. That area is heavily forested, along the river, with cottonwoods.
    Jim
    Last edited by Jim in Idaho; Oct 23, 2017 at 01:04 PM.
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  7. #37
    au
    Jun 2017
    Gold Coast Queensland
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    I posted it for no other reason than i thought some of you may be interested to read the total crud being blogged about MD'ers by the author
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  8. #38

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Hey gang, Recall that Jim (Idaho) and I found ourselves quoted on the archie's blog. We were examples of how md'rs are horrible, etc....

    Well, I couldn't help myself. I submitted a comment on that page (even though several years old). And got a reply ! The archie has been fair enough to dialog back and forth . Check it out. Scroll to the bottom comments portion, and see the back and forth. A fascinating look at purist archie's mindsets.

    Portable Antiquity Collecting and Heritage Issues: More Metal Detecting Along the Oregon Trail
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  9. #39
    Charter Member
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    Aug 2013
    OC, CA
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    Interesting read Tom. Thanks. An Arch who is staid in his research.


    “Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value.”
    – Albert Einstein

  10. #40

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Paul has dedicated a new page, of his blog. Specifically for the md'r enthusiast (me) who added to the page that was several years old. You can't say he hasn't been more than fair.

    https://paul-barford.blogspot.com/20...this-blog.html

  11. #41

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    I invite T'net readers to read the comments section of archaeologist blogs, 2 links above. This fellow Paul is what we md'rs call a "purist archaeologist". He prefers to call it "conservation conscious". And he was fair enough to allow me to post to his blog.

    After many back & forth posts, I tried to capsulize his stance as:

    "Hobbyist metal detecting, for old items in legal places, done with no archaeological rigor, is damaging and harmful".

    Essentially: The only type metal detecting he would approve of, is if we md'rs basically BECAME archaeologists. (dig with brushes, write volumes on each nail, turn all old stuff over to museums, etc...). This is understandable if we were talking land where there is some sort of law requires that (ARPA for sensitive monuments, etc...). But to him, it's EVERYWHERE. Even on private land, and forms of public land where no laws or rules forbid.

    I told him there's many archaeologists who do not have problems with our type hobbyists. As long as they stay out of the archaeologists digs, and out of off-limits sites. Paul has a dim view of any archaeologist who is not "conservative conscious".

    After getting to the root of his stance (in bold above), you can see I repeatedly asked him to confirm. ( Although it was beyond dispute, as I was pulling this direct from him). I just wanted to get a "yes that is my stance". So that we could move on with a conversation ON JUST THAT. Ie.: "no rabbit trails" for either side. Because admittedly, when an archaeologist comes to read a metal detecting forum, sure: He will find things that are objectionable. There is "locker room talk" here about archaeologists . Ie.: jokes about ARPA, and so forth. I didn't *****-foot around that, yes, there can be wrong forms of th'ing / md'ing, and snarky talk by md'rs.

    So to GET BEYOND ALL THAT (ie.: no red herrings) I wanted to see if the very core of his stance could be cross-examined. And as you can see: A) he refused to admit this capsulized his stance, and B) it devolved into name calling on his part (how sweet, eh ?)

    WHICH IS FINE BY ME. Because therefore :


    A) It is very TELLING that here was an md'r (about the most brazen as they come mind you) who was willing to intellectually discuss the issue. Assuming we could stay on track with a single statement for review. Yet he didn't care to do that. Ok, ask yourself: Who was the open minded person here ? Who attempted to open dialogue ? Yet who says "no" to cross-examination of his stance ? Hmmm.

    B) It was also very TELLING to see him name calling. When , as you can see, I tried my durndest to be polite, give him his due, acknowledged historical sins on the part of treasure hunters , etc... So ask yourself: Who was courteous and a gentleman ?

    Hence we shall let all those facts speak LOUDLY for themselves. Paul: If you're reading this: Thanx for the fascinating look into the conservative conscious archaeological view.
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Oct 31, 2017 at 01:12 AM.

  12. #42
    us
    Mar 2006
    Southwest
    MXT, V3
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    69 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Mr. Barford, a.k.a. Warsaw Wally, and I have a long history (type my name in the search section of his blog). The best course of action, and what every single UK forum does, is to totally ignore the guy. Any attempt to discuss anything is a waste of time. He will just use it to insult you.

  13. #43

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Stout View Post
    Mr. Barford, a.k.a. Warsaw Wally, and I have a long history (type my name in the search section of his blog).....
    Dick Stout, yes I saw your name in there too. I was proud of you ! We should start a "club" of md'rs who were fortunate enough to be on the "Paul Barford's example list of horrible & vilified md'r ". It will be a badge of honor to be mentioned by him, eh ?

    Heck, even other archies think he's "gone to the other extreme". I perceived that in his answer to me. When I had pointed out that many archies are NOT against all casual-hobbyist metal detecting . His reply (fair that he answered) was to hint at friction he has had with those less-than-purist archies.

    I looked carefully at your attempts to answer or persuade him. And at first, I saw things I realized he could/would "punch holes in". Ie.: I could already anticipate what his pat answers would be. But when someone STARTS with his definitions of words, it's almost impossible to win a debate, eh ? And the definition I speak of, is that "All hobbyist detecting, when not done with archaeological rigor, is evil". Well, SURE, if you START with that definition, and KEEP POINTING PEOPLE BACK TO THAT DEFINITION, then sure: You logically come to his conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Stout View Post
    ... Any attempt to discuss anything is a waste of time. ...
    Well, yes and no. It's a waste of time to attempt to persuade Mr. Barford, I agree. But since he was fair enough to allow a teensy bit of counter opinion on his blog, then perhaps his fellow archaeologists who read it, can perhaps lighten. Ie.: "plant stones in shoes " for other readers to consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Stout View Post
    .... He will just use it to insult you.
    Yes. And that's exactly what he did. When I first began I thought: "Let's see who devolves into name-calling first". And sure enough, those name-calling insults immediately started to pepper his writings. As opposed to an intellectual pro-con discussion.

    And I say that quite humbly. Because I'm the first to admit that md'rs, including myself, DO INDEED engage in "locker room talk". Ie.: put-downs that do-nothing to arrive at truth. Eg.: we've made fun of archies, poked jokes at sketchy md'ing spots, ARPA, etc... But for purposes of this, (face to face with your actual competition) I had tried to suggest we do-so with courtesy and fairness. And keep the discussion on a straight-&-narrow focussed point. And as you saw: I prefaced my comments with credits to him when-due, etc... But all I got in return, was snarky putdowns and name-calling.
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Oct 31, 2017 at 10:38 AM.

  14. #44

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
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    Banner Finds (4)
    Here was an odd portion of the dialogue: I had started my comments to his blog, by pointing out that the portions of the Oregon trail I was referring to (in the T'net post he had found), were the legal portions of it. Eg.: forms of public land where not forbidden, or private land.

    Because at this point, I was not aware that his stance covered the entire earth. I thought perhaps he was aghast law-breaking (md'ing in protected off-limits places)

    Here was his response:

    "What you are doing is following the "it's legal innit?" argument beloved of artefact collectors of all shades. This goes that if something has not actually been made illegal, it must be OK to do it. Like wife-beating...."


    My observations of this answer from him are as follows:

    a) Well , quite frankly ... yes: If it's not illegal, then presto, it's ok to do.

    b) "Like wife-beating". Huh ? Did you catch that ? I'm not sure what country he is in, but here in the USA, that's not legal. But assume for the moment there's a country that does allow legal wife beating (in order to allow his analogy to stand). Ok, then what logically follows from this wonderful example of his ? Namely: "Metal detecting is inherently evil, in the same way that wife-beating is inherently evil".

    I don't know about you, but if the "average person" sees a wife-beating going on in a park or the beach, they are immediately aghast, call the cops, try to break it up, feel bad for the gal, etc... But if the "average person" passes by the park or the beach, and sees an md'r, they don't even register it. Or quite the opposite: They come up to you and say "wow that's cool. What's the best thing you've ever found ? How deep does it go ? etc...". So to compare the evil-ness level of md'ing to wife-beating, is VERY TELLING for the extreme of Paul's stance.

    Do you see how how STARTING PREMISE DEFINITION (that all hobbyist level md'ing is evil) permeates everything he writes.
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Oct 31, 2017 at 10:56 AM.

  15. #45

    Mar 2012
    Nevada,Calif.,Utah,Arizona
    355
    363 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Their is a sign where the Oregon trail intersects a highway outside of searchlight ,Nv,I have metal detected their a few times.Found nothing to brag about.

 

 
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