Places To Hunt Without Having to ask?

[A5150S]

After 32 years working as a cop, one thing is always true. Unless something is specifically prohibited, it is allowed. You know what is against the law, just look on google. Remember, ignorance to the law is no excuse, but if no law exists there is no need to ask the government for permission. In CA it is very illegal to dig in state and federal parks. Any other public place is OK, unless they say you are trespassing on private property. The only time I ask is when the target is on private property and the owner is right there on site. Unless a posting warns of arrest, you are not trespassing until you refuse to leave when asked.

Don't argue with cops and rangers about what is legal, youmay be right but you will still lose. Find another spot for a few weeks, they will forget all about you.

A5150S

 

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[Stormrider51]

Look where you live dude! Get out of Travis and Williamson counties and you may/will find that Texas is free. I have never asked permission to hunt anywhere around San Antonio. There are hundreds, if not thousands of places to hunt in Texas where you don't have to ask and nobody cares...

Actually, I'm over in Bastrop County now and things are better although a Bastrop officer did tell me that digging in Fisherman's Park is illegal. Austin and Travis County are basically closed to detecting except for private property where you have permission. State Parks are off limits statewide as are LCRA parks. Then there's that antiquities law where any "designated historical site" is off limits even if it is on private property. And of course there's really no such thing a public land in Texas. It's all owned by somebody. Maybe I'm just old and grumpy but it seems that every time I turn around I'm being told that there's someplace else I can no longer hunt.

Storm

 

[Diggin-N-Dumps]

Were i am i have never seen a no detecting sign............

a couple of the parks here actually have signs talking about" Do Not Disturb the Grounds", punishable by law, and not to take ANYTHING from the park. I'm guessing because its a Dinosaur park and there are fossils there, and the other park is home to a lot of Native American artifacts, and is strictly prohibited on removing ANTTHING from the park. But I have hunted State Parks in Florida before and never caught any flack. I really think it varies from State to State

 

[Diggin-N-Dumps]

Actually, I'm over in Bastrop County now and things are better although a Bastrop officer did tell me that digging in Fisherman's Park is illegal. Austin and Travis County are basically closed to detecting except for private property where you have permission. State Parks are off limits statewide as are LCRA parks. Then there's that antiquities law where any "designated historical site" is off limits even if it is on private property. And of course there's really no such thing a public land in Texas. It's all owned by somebody. Maybe I'm just old and grumpy but it seems that every time I turn around I'm being told that there's someplace else I can no longer hunt.

Storm

I have hunted designated Historical Sites in the past before. The only Place I have heard of people not being allowed my area was in Arlington, but in Other areas around here. I have had police ask me more about what Im finding than what Im doing..Im sure about 90 percent of it is how your attitude is, and what the cops mood are in. I have no problem playing stupid and learning that I cant hunt an area. Its all common sense...if you think you are doing something wrong...then don't do it. But you are right, there really are no such things as "Woods" anymore...its someones property, but I have a website that shows what is owned by a person, or what is owned by the city/state...and If its City owned...Im all over it!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Anita, you are not in "the minority". It seems to be split about 50/50.

You say: " .... I always call the local police department and ask the dispatcher if "there are any laws specific to metal detecting on town owned property". I never mention digging holes, filling holes or anything that can be construed as damaging to property."

Yes, this tactic is sometimes suggested as a way for md'rs who feel they MUST talk to a live person. Ie.: instead of asking "hi, can I metal detect in the park?", to instead do as you suggest, and carefully phrase it in a way that puts the burden-of-proof on them to CITE such a law, if one existed. Ie.: something that specifically said "no metal detecting". So they would do exactly as you say. And yes, that's an improvement over the asking permission or "can I?" type routes. HOWEVER, it has still back-fired on folks. I've read how some guys get odd answers like "You can't dig". EVEN THOUGH the person asking NEVER mentioned "digging". Perhaps it's just because it's the go-to-mental image that some desk-clerks might have. Or another time a person I read about got the odd answer of "...we would prefer you didn't" (as if he'd just asked "mother may I?"). So he repeated his question asking more specifically "but where is that written??" and .... it just goes downhill from there (they morph something else to fit your "pressing question"). And another risk I've read about, is there's actually been a few cities, that when faced with that carefully worded question, and seeing as how they have to honestly answer "no, there's no rules addressing metal detectors...", well then guess what they go and do?? MAKE a rule to "address this pressing issue". Yup, that has happened too.

Here's another tactic someone could use, that would still employ talking to a live person (which for some reason, some md'rs feel they really have to do): Ask in this way: "Hi, can you please direct me to where a person can read the city codes, charter, laws, rules, etc...?" And I suppose they'd direct you to a link in their website, or to a binder in city hall, or at the library, or ... WHATEVER. City and county rules, laws, codes, etc... HAVE to be available for public viewing SOMEWHERE afterall. And then presto, you just look in there, see if there's any mention of detecting, and get your question answered that way, all while having "talked to a live person"

 

[Tom_in_CA]

hut-site-digger, you say:

"now you face prison, fines, judges, lawyers and what ever hell on earth they throw @ you these days.. YOU CANT EVEN go into the DAM WOODS today with people with cell phones they see a MDer going into the woods and BOOOM they call 911"

Are you serious? Can you tell me any examples of someone detecting and getting "prison" "fines" "judges" "lawyers" etc.....? I see this fear thrown out as a reason for everyone of us to go grovelling, fear, ask permission, etc... But when you press people for examples, very few, if any, are ever forthcoming. Heck, I detect in the woods all the time (and parks, schools, beaches, etc...) and NEVER saw or faced any of the "imminent" things you are saying. I suspect any such incidents of fines, confiscations, jail, etc.... are of persons who were night-sneaking obvious off-limits spots, or someone who couldn't take a warning, etc...

No, none of the things you tell us to fear are going to happen to someone going to innocuous parks, schools, woods, etc... ESPECIALLY if there were no rule saying "no metal detecting". If you can cite such an example, I would love to hear it.

 

[HutSiteDigger]

They just passed a new law in King George, Virginia if you remove any artifact from someone elses property without permission and it is under $200 it is a misd. and trespassing fine if the artifact is over $200 it is a felony and trespassing. It's getting tough out there just read this the other week in a King George Sheriffs office newsletter.

 

[HutSiteDigger]

These people were caught in National Park in Fredericksburg and got two years in prison. http://www.nps.gov/frsp/parknews/relic.htm

 

[Tom_in_CA]

A5150S, thanx for your 32 yrs. service to our communities !

Yes, you're right about the fact that if something is not prohibited, then it's not illegal. Isn't that known in legal terms as "implied consent"? Anyhow, you go to say:

"In CA it is very illegal to dig in state and federal parks. Any other public place is OK, "

What part of CA are you in? But in any case, this issue of "digging" would even be "illegal" (if you asked long enough and hard enough of enough city and county people) even at the city and county level. I mean, let's face it: even in humble innocuous city parks, there's always still verbage disallowing "alterations" of "defacement" or "vandalism" or some such wording. Right? But the CATCH is, that all such verbage inplicitly refers to the end result. If you don't leave a trace, then presto, you haven't alterED anything, no have you? So for persons to go wondering "can I dig?" and studying laws, or asking people, along those lines, .... they might as well give up now, and choose another hobby. Because the rules about such things exist in some form or another. But the *reality* is, as long as you're not a nuisance, leave no trace ... and avoid such lookie-lous, no one really cares.

As for all state parks in CA being off-limits (which you claim), here's a mind-bender for you: The parks dept that over-sees the in-land parks, is the very same parks dept. which oversees the state-of-CA beaches too. And you can detect state of CA beaches till you're blue in the face, and no one cares. But if you asked long enough and hard enough, there's *technically* no reason that any type of "cultural heritage wording" or "digging and alterations" verbage, or "collecting and harvesting" verbage, etc... WOULDN'T also apply to the beaches here too. Then ask yourself: Why then, can you detect state-of-CA beaches till you're blue in the face, and no one ever cares? (yup, right in front of rangers as a matter of fact): BECAUSE NO ONE'S EVER GONE TO SACRAMENTO WITH THIS PRESSING QUESTION before, doh! One time a buddy of mine caught flack on Seacliff state beach, from a passing state archie. The archie tried to tell him he had to stop, that it was illegal, etc... (because he might "find something old", blah blah). The two of them squared off, and argued a bit, before the archie huffed off in disgust. It was just a big fluke that the archie was even there at that beach that day. Turns out he'd driven down to the coast that day, to give a lecture or something at the beach-side museum there. And just HAPPENED to look down on the beach and see my friend. When my friend relayed this info to others of us on a CA specific forum, a few people figured "we'd better go get this clarified" or "let's put this guy in his spot and prove him wrong", etc.. But the more we looked into the actual written rules, laws, etc... the more we realized that things are BETTER LEFT ALONE, and treat that as a fluke. That was 15 yrs. ago, and .... to this day .... you can still hunt state-of-CA beaches, and no one cares. But sure, if you asked enough archies or lawyers, (be sure to have a shovel in your hand a copy of ARPA to show them), then sure, you'd eventually find someone to tell you "no".

Then you say:

"Don't argue with cops and rangers about what is legal, youmay be right but you will still lose. Find another spot for a few weeks, they will forget all about you."

Hah, that's pretty good coming from a retired cop! And it's so true! You guys have MUCH BIGGER FISH TO FRY, and ... yes .... responding to some busy-bodies complaint about a guy in a park with a detector, will be forgotten. In fact, I bet in a lot of those situations, the cop himself could care less, but they are duty-bound to respond if someone said something silly like "there's a man in the park with a weapon" or whatever. But it's like you say: give lip service, be polite, etc... And then give it a rest (6 months or whatever), and odds are, they're isolated incidents. For example: I was booted by a lady cop in a park in a certain town one day. Who knows? Maybe she was in a bad mood? Maybe someone called in and said we were doing harm? I dunno. Anyhow, we were just getting ready to leave, so I didn't make a fuss, and left. Now I suppose I could have gone to city hall and "sought clarification". Or I could have taken that booting as "being some sort of precedent that the parks in that town were off-limits", etc.. But since I don't pass through this town too often, it wasn't an issue. Later in the year, when passing through the town again, I detected more. That was over 10 yrs. ago, and I've been back dozens of times. NEVER HEARD A PEEP AGAIN! So you're right: we need not always take such a booting as law, or precedent, etc.... It's often just that you were sticking out like a sore thumb, or perhaps they happened to be driving past when you were in the middle of a deep retreival, etc.. So be a bit more discreet, and pick off-traffic times, so as to not have that happen

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Diggin-N-Dumps, you say:

"..... a couple of the parks here actually have signs talking about" Do Not Disturb the Grounds", punishable by law, and not to take ANYTHING from the park. I'm guessing because its a Dinosaur park and there are fossils there, and the other park is home to a lot of Native American artifacts, and is strictly prohibited on removing ANTTHING from the park. But I have hunted State Parks in Florida before and never caught any flack. I really think it varies from State to State "

Rules about "taking", "harvesting", "collecting", etc... have been on the books since time-immortal. They predate metal detectors. They are there so that .... of course .... no one thinks he can back up his truck to the rose garden and harvest all the flowers to sell at the flea market. Or someone helping themselves to all the tan-bark, to use in his own garden. Etc... But sure, there's nothing to *technically* stop such verbage from applying to singular coins, rings, etc... that we find. HECK, I bet that such verbage could *technically* stop your 5 yr old daughter from taking a sea-shell home from the beach!! But SERIOUSLY now, does anyone really care if your 5 yr. old daughter took a sea-shell home from the beach? Did anyone REALLY care if you took homes those coins from the sandbox? I mean, c'mon guys, if you let those type clauses stop you, then what the heck are you in this hobby for? Might someone morph such a thing to apply to your question? SURE! Avoid such lookie-lous and pick low traffic times. For pete's sake!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

These people were caught in National Park in Fredericksburg and got two years in prison. Five Relic Hunters Apprehended in Two Separate Incidents - Fredericksburg & Spotsylvania National Military Park

It's as I said hut-site-digger: Any examples that can be forthcoming of arrests, jail, tickets, etc... invariably involve someone night-sneaking obvious historic monuments, and/or places with clear distinct rules (that an md'r could look up, and avail himself of). Thus why the heck this fears we are supposed to worry about, come up in conversation about regular-run-of-the-mill parks, beaches, schools .... I'll never understand

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Like I said it all depends on the state you are in. Some states have light laws while here in Virginia there have been numerous trespassing citations in city parks mainly in Fredericksburg, Manassas, Prince William County for trespassing and they seize your MDer and any artifact if you want it back you have to go to court. I am just saying before hitting any park up just check the rules if not then you enter at own risk. Commonwealth states can be the hardest too deal with like Virginia they have strict laws on everything. It use to not be this way even in the 1990s you could just pull aside and hunt any park but within the past 5 years here in VA they have thrown down the hatchet.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Like I said it all depends on the state you are in. Some states have light laws while here in Virginia there have been numerous trespassing citations in city parks mainly in Fredericksburg, Manassas, Prince William County for trespassing and they seize your MDer and any artifact if you want it back you have to go to court. I am just saying before hitting any park up just check the rules if not then you enter at own risk. Commonwealth states can be the hardest too deal with like Virginia they have strict laws on everything. It use to not be this way even in the 1990s you could just pull aside and hunt any park but within the past 5 years here in VA they have thrown down the hatchet.

I still don't get it though: cities as you mention (fredericksburg, manassas, etc...) would, I presume, therefore have laws on the books saying "no metal detecting". Then if someone looks up the rules for his own city (or county or whatever) and sees no such rules, the presto, he need not fear "arrests" "confiscations", and so forth, right?

Oh, and one more thing: Any time the subject of laws & rules comes up, someone will invariably post examples of off-limits cities (like you're doing), To bolster the assertion that "we all need to be aware" and "you can't be too safe, you better ask", and so forth. And such locations are held-up as proof-positive examples of proof of this But what this often fails to realize, is that a lot of times, those such places with rules, ONLY GOT THAT WAY, by people in-the-past having gone asking "can I?" type questions.

So on the one hand, I can see the knee-jerk reaction of whenever someone advocates an attitude of "just help yourself", someone else will come on and cite an example of a rule existing somewhere (that in their mind, bolsters the assertion that we should all go and ask "just to be safe"...). But it fails to take into account, that often time, that's THE VERY REASON why those places have rules .... to begin with . A vicious circle.

 

[thrillathahunt]

You can go dig in your mother-in-laws yard.

 

[matrix1272]

Like I said I am a newbie to md, and I live in Missouri. Can someone in my area tell me where I can md without asking, or tell me where I can find out? I don't know where to find these things out. Some of these stories kind of scare me off of md, then others say don't worry about it, no need to ask, I am confused? If we can't md on at least publc land (parks, schools, ect) why did I buy a md if there is no where to hunt? I'm getting discouraged with the hobby already from reading all this and I have Just started :-( If someone can help me with info for Missouri, I would sure appreciate it. I live in a small town on the boarder of Texas and Wright County. Thanks All.

 

[TreasurDiggrNY]

You're not helping anyone by giving these new members your skewed, self interpreted version of what you think the law is or isn't. Just because there isn't a sign posted or easily found ordinance doesn't mean there isn't a law against it.

Furthermore, advising someone not to ask a Ranger, Parks dept. official or visiting the town hall to find out whats allowed cracks me up. If they say no then it's no, go hunt somewhere else, go ask someone higher up, what's the big deal? If you don't like the laws, change them, happens all the time. Just because you live in fear of authority and hunt looking over your shoulder being where you're not supposed to doesn't mean everyone else has to.

If you really want to help new members, ask what state, town and county they're in and give them the info they need or don't reply, someone is going to get in trouble because of the information your putting out there.

When I see your posts with your interpretation of how you think things work, I always think of the court scene from the movie "Blow" when Johnny Depp says. "All I really did was cross an imaginary line with some plants" to which the Judge says. "Your concepts are really interesting BUT...The line you crossed was real and the plants you brought with you are illegal so bail is set for $20,000.00

 

[TreasurDiggrNY]

Like I said I am a newbie to md, and I live in Missouri. Can someone in my area tell me where I can md without asking, or tell me where I can find out? I don't know where to find these things out. Some of these stories kind of scare me off of md, then others say don't worry about it, no need to ask, I am confused? If we can't md on at least publc land (parks, schools, ect) why did I buy a md if there is no where to hunt? I'm getting discouraged with the hobby already from reading all this and I have Just started :-( If someone can help me with info for Missouri, I would sure appreciate it. I live in a small town on the boarder of Texas and Wright County. Thanks All.

Metal detecting clubs are a great resource for local laws, Contact this club (link below) in Missouri, they can definitely provide state info and possibly a club closer to your area where you can get local info.

Midwest Coin Shooters

 

[Tom_in_CA]

matrix1272, the answer to your question is: You can hunt anywhere that it's not prohibited. And to find out if it's "prohibited", you look up the laws, codes, rules, etc... wherever it is that you have in mind (city or county, for example). If you see nothing there that says "no metal detectors", then there's your answer. You can't be MORE law abiding then that.

The trouble with asking "can I?" as treasurdiggrNY suggests, is you risk an answer of "no you can't". Even when there's no rule saying you can't. If there wasn't and isn't a rule saying you can't, then why can't THAT be your answer?? What's "skewed" about that treasurediggrNY? Please tell us how that isn't correct legal advice? (and no, it's not THAT hard to go find out what the rules and laws are. IT'S PUBLIC INFO).

Tell you what TreasurediggrNY : How about I run this past an attorney, and post his answer here for all T'net to read in a new Thread. I subscribe (via my company) to a service that allows me to ask questions of a lawyer. It's a phone-call-in subscription call in service. I will post both the exact phraseology in the way the question is asked, and the exact answer. If it's as I say (and a cop on this thread concurs!), THEN will you cede the point?

 

[matrix1272]

Tom, where do I find the laws, codes, rules, ect.?

 

[squiggy]

Tom, where do I find the laws, codes, rules, ect.?

I think you are worrying to much! If nothing is posted then go for it and if someone asks you to leave respectfully go elsewhere! Simple!