Round 1 - NYC Parks Department Wins By A KO.

[Ricardo_NY1]

I know a few of the New York City locals have been interested and waiting to hear news about the outcome of the $250 summons I received. Unfortunately in this round, I lost. I gave them the best defense I could, but as you read on, you'll realise that they could care less to understand facts and regulations. I presented to them a very well documented case including exhibits to demonstrate that the lawn was not well manicured, and that the summons was issued inappropiately based on a stipulation on the permit that allows any official to simply ask us to seize the activity or move away from an area, as opposed to issuing such a hefty fine. That was just a few of my very specific arguments.

I have highlighted in a red box the word "Vegetation" for all the permit holders out there to see. This is the worse technical error made by the judge. If you review the section titles "Definitions", it reads "Areas with native vegetation-any area where any species of native (North American) plants are naturally growing and reproducing. Lawn areas are not native plant areas". I've included a scan, but the quality is poor. If anyone can scan and upload a clear one for everyone to see, it would be appreciated. So basically, this has gone from a hearing trying to determine whether this lawn was a manicured lawn to an administrative law judge that has decided to uphold a violation based on her own made up rule. The bottom line is that the department of parks does not even consider lawn areas to be vegetation. And even if "Other vegetation is taken into consideration, we do have a permit and permission from the commissioner to do what we do, as even a rough lawn area has some grass in it. There are many arguments and loopholes to this. It is just a matter of choosing the right ones.
Do I have grounds to appeal? Most certainly! But GET THIS!...........no appeal will be considered without payment in full (Within 10 days) or a bond acceptable to the board. I called the appeals unit asking for instruction on how to post a bond.........their response? I would have to go through the same procedure as with posting a bond to get out of jail! Incredible! I should give Dog The Bounty Hunter a call on this one and see what Beth or Leland can do for me. Furthermore, it is my understanding from my phone conversation with the unit that the appeals process takes between 1-2 years. Do I earn interest on my money? Guys..........if you even remotely see a ranger.........do not dig! Let them pass by. That's what I've been doing. Scans enclosed.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Ricardo, forget for a moment the definition of "vegetation". Concentrate instead on "remove". To me, "remove" means...... to remove from the park. You know, like people who want to save money on flower bulbs (plant splicings, etc...) so they remove plants from a park. I've seen people do this! (I never thought green thumb type people would stoop so low to save a buck, but I guess it happens.) But in any case, to "move" (and subsequently replace to exact position), as opposed to "RE-move", is a notable distinction.

In my opinion, you didn't "remove" anything! Every cotton-picken speck of vegetation, earth, etc.... is ALL still there. Can you do your defense from that stand-point?

 

[Ricardo_NY1]

Ricardo, forget for a moment the definition of "vegetation". Concentrate instead of "remove". To me, "remove" means...... to remove from the park. You know, like people who want to save money on flower bulbs (plant splicings, etc...) so they remove plants from a park. I've seen people do this! (I never thought green thumb type people would stoop so low to save a buck, but I guess it happens.) But in any case, to "move" (and subsequently replace to exact position), as opposed to "RE-move", is a notable distinction.

In my opinion, you didn't "remove" anything! Every cotton-picken speck of vegetation, earth, etc.... is ALL still there. Can you do your defense from that stand-point?

Per the appeal instructions, I can write a statement of the objections I am making, write a clear statement of my arguments on each point, including references to the law and facts on which I rely and write a statement of the specific changes I want made in the decision and order.

Thanks for the idea, Tom.

Best,
Ricardo

 

[radarwill]

What f@&!ing joke. I cant believe crack dealers and murders walk on technicalities and the system is going to bust the b@lls of a detectorist that was clearly leaving the area unscaved.
This echos what is wrong with our entire system; on paper is sounds like a great system, but they forgot to factor in the greedy ahole factor that many in the system have and screw up the whole works.

 

[EDDE]

its just a revenue racket

 

[Evolx10]

This is the same reason i have to hide my detector like some sort of poacher when i go into my tax payer funded park(s) and aerate the soil in the woods and lighten it of some trash. I work for a different NYC department, but i will tell you all are the same when it comes to this stuff. And this is the reason i find myself extremely frustrated with detecting, because i cant lawfully go to my local park and mind my own business cleaning the ground.

I would wish ya luck but as is usual with the city in cases like this, its useless just pay the 250 and bash NYC parks as having filthy unmaintained parks .. seriously the whole situation makes me taste bile im so disgusted.

 

[hollowpointred]

another ugly example of bureaucratic nonsense. it really is a revenue racket. no matter how strong a case you presented, that Judge would have found you guilty because her mind was made up before you ever walked into court. this is another way the State raises funds, plain and simple. its disgusting and i wish there was a way to get these so called elected "officials" fired, or at least not elected in the first place. unfortunately for us, the hobbyists, we are truly in the minority, and the State will take advantage of that at every turn. i wish you luck with the appeal Ricardo, you deserve better treatment.

 

[Mike in Berks]

bummer Ricardo I remember your original post about this but, i don't remember the
the advice you got ? i don't know how much this will help but, here's mine FMDAC
The Federation of Metal Detector and Archaelogical Clubs, Inc.
I've been a member for a few years just in case something happens to me in a case like this
Board of Directors Chapter Presidents - you might want to contact :
John Howard Northeast Chapter CT MA ME NH RI VT >NEW YORK < CANADA
34 Bayberry Lane,
Rochester,NY 14616 Phone: 585 - 663 - 7368 E - Mail: [email protected]

call him see what advice he gives you i hope you can get this senseless fine dismissed

 

[The.Boomer]

The whole thing sucks Ricardo, but the truth is that this is allot like a traffic ticket. You won't likely get anyone to listen to the facts when your talking such a small sum of money in their eyes and no reasonable threat of jail time exists. I do have a law degree but don't practice as an attorney per se' I work as an Investigator. But I can tell you that any appeal must be based upon an error in the first case, otherwise it will simply be denied. You have to find some error made by the officials involved either in the proceedings or based upon case law. IN other words if you can get examples of another judges prior opinion that was contrary to this judges and then it also must be applicable to your case. For instance, if another judge determined how to define a manicured lawn and your lawn didn't fit this description. Then the court of Appeals would be more likely to hear a fresh argument based upon the differences between the two judges rulings with an eye to the precedent set by the prior judge. Just my take on a best case scenario.

 

[radarwill]

I think the system is in need of fixing in situations like this; good luck with that one.
The real problem however came before any judge or system.
It began with that jerky Park Ranger.

I ran into a problem with a local Park Ranger as well.
The person was a new supervisor and ran me off a good spot I have detected for years.
It bothered the heck outta me for a while but eventually I just forgot about it.
One day, as a town EMT, I had a call for chest pain; you guessed it, it was the Ranger.
The Ranger remembered me from the incident but I didn't get into it during the call for professional reasons. I later ran into the person at a local hardware store.
The person emphatically thanked me for my service and offered to let me hunt again.
I said thanks but no thanks, wouldn't want to "stress you out" and said my goodbyes.
May not sound like much but in my mind I really got a good politically correct jab in there.

Good luck with your case.

 

[MrBling]

It's the same in every big city- these administrative tribunals are just kangaroo courts whose purpose is to shake down the taxpayers in order to pay the salaries of the city employees.
Unless you're politically connected, you're going to get the old "skrewgee"
I respect you for fighting back, though

 

[G.I.B.]

Absolutely incredible...

I thought we had stupid laws here in Florida... You presented a good defense. It was one that they just didn't want to hear and turned a deaf ear to. It's sad that they attack the good folks and ignore the bad ones.

 

[sniffer]

unfortunately the law as written does not say (removed from park) it says remove from ground.
so the judge can say she was enforcing the law as written. you can't change that, however you can request and addition to the law allowing MD'ing and specifics on hole size, tools used and allowable place to MD
sorry to hear about the ticket

 

[Sandman]

This is a sad fact of life that small minded people (park rangers) will abuse their authority. However when they come across someone with a hole in the ground they get upset. This is why I stress the use of only a screwdriver type to pop the coin out of the ground in any type of area where they cut the "grass."

I used to be a ranger in the DNR and have seen the damage done by my fellow detectorists. Not all dig holes. I came across one guy that was digging holes and leaving the hole unfilled. I asked him to replace the dirt an try to make it look neat. I got cussed at for being a busybody. One radio call and he was given a summons for destroying park property. His fine, $150, but also had to pay for reseeding the total area he messed up. I haven't seen him since. It didn't help that he blew up in court.........

You can appeal the case and bring one of your elected representatives into it, but I think it is a lost cause.

 

[Argentium]

Ricardo, I'm apalled to hear of this legal and beuracratic nightmare your dealing with. Fight them with

Intelligence and righteousness , If a legal defense fund can be set up for you by those of us who as I,

do consider you one of our" band of brothers", please let me know how I may assist you. Argentium.