Getting material out of a moving stream without a dredge??

[EngiNerd]

Hello all!

This is sort of a continuation of an earlier post, but it can stand on its own.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/p...t-gold-panning-trip-gravel-bar-questions.html

So, I went back to the same spot as before, but I moved up stream, to right in front of this bridge (see first photo in previous post). There are a couple of large rock sticking up in front of the tunnel, and thought that would be a good place to dig. However, it became very apparent that getting the material out without it washing off the shovel is going to be a challenge. Another fella came by, and he made the same comment on a spot further down stream; good spots behind large rocks (and right near some bedrock), but the material washes off his shovel. I was able to get a small pan right in behind the rock, and get some material in the pan, using my hands. After panning it out, I might have found one spec of color, but I would not bet on it (I put it in a bottle anyways to look at later).

Here is my question: Are there any tip/trick/suggestions for getting material from behind a rock in the middle of a fast moving stream ?? I know the most obvious answer is to use a dredge, but being on federal lands, they are prohibited (well, the rules says nothing mechanized or motorized; I wonder if a gravity dredge would be allowed?? .) Could one try submerging a sluice box? (I googled that, but did not see much on it). Is there a ways to capture that material, and then pan it on the shore? I figured someone here has dealt with this problem before . . . I know...they probably used a dredge!

Thanks for any feedback!

EngiNerd

 

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[huntsman53]

I am going out on a limb here but here goes! I have been faced with the same delimma quite a few times and know that I have lost a lot of Gold from my' shovel when trying to raise it back up out of the water. My dad used to build his' own minnow seines for catching minnows to fish with. I have thought about trying something similar to catch the Gold! I believe that you could take a couple of sturdy 2"x2" pieces of lumber about 5' long, attach a 3' long really fine meshed but strong cloth material to it and place weights about every 6" along the bottom. Sharpening the bottom end of the 2x2's, so that they can be forced into the bed/floor of the stream. Place the seine about 2 feet behind (downstream) where you are digging, pushing the sharpened points well into the stream bed so that the bottom weighted edge of the cloth seine is down against the bed of the stream. Once in place, you can even place a few rocks on the bottom edge to hold the bottom of the seine down against the bottom. After that, you should be able to dig about 3 shovels full out and into a highbanker or bucket. Get behind the seine, slowly pull the 2x2 poles out of the stream bed and carefully lift the seine out of the water, making sure that while lifting it, that the bottom of the seine slowly rotates upward from the bottom (i.e. rotate the bottom of the seine from it's 80 or 90 degree angle, upward slowly to a 45 degree angle and out of the water). In doing this, the force of the water will keep the material in the seine as it rises to the surface. Just make sure that when lifting it, to keep the back edge of the cloth seine (the part against your' body) several inches above the top of the water, so that any material does not wash over the top and out. If I ever go to a stream or creek where I know that I will be faced with a situation like this again, I plan to build my' own seine and try it out!

Good luck!


Frank

 

[KevinInColorado]

Enginerd, exactly what federal land are you on?

Generally, the no mechanized rule only applies in federal wilderness (and some locally owned lands too of course)

Generally, the no motorized rule is more broadly imposed than no mechanized...officially due to pollution risks and noise issues but often arbitrarily too!

My mechanized but nonmotorized suggestion would be a Gold-n-Sand type hand pump.

 

[EngiNerd]

Enginerd, exactly what federal land are you on?

Generally, the no mechanized rule only applies in federal wilderness (and some locally owned lands too of course)

Generally, the no motorized rule is more broadly imposed than no mechanized...officially due to pollution risks and noise issues but often arbitrarily too!

My mechanized but nonmotorized suggestion would be a Gold-n-Sand type hand pump.

Hello Kevin!

Here is a cut/paste on the rules I got from the Ranger station here in the Uwharrie National Forest, North Carolina:

Recreational panning for gold is allowed on most of the Uwharrie National Forest.

Stream-bed (placer) gold, in most cases, does not exist in sufficient quantities to constitute economically recoverable deposits. No fee or permit is required as long as only shovel and pan techniques are used and no significant stream disturbance results, but one should check with the Uwharrie Ranger Station. Sluice or “shaker” boxes are allowed, but no mechanized or motorized equipment, such as suction dredges are allowed.

On some areas of the Uwharrie National Forest, the minerals are privately owned. Written permission should be obtained from the mineral owner prior to beginning collection. Contact the District office for more information on these locations.

They also provided a map of the NF areas that you were not allow to pan. It is east of 109 and west of the Uwharrie river, where the old Russel Mine and Coggins Mines use to be. I imagine it is for safety reasons.

Now, while a gravity dredge is neither mechanized or motorized, it could cause, in their eyes, "significant stream disturbance". The engineer side of me says "Define significant disturbance", cause I am sure all of us could cause "significant disturbance" with just a shovel! The cautious side of me says ask first (they will probably say No as soon as they read/hear the word Dredge), but then a small part of me says try the "Better to ask for forgiveness than permission", but that forgiveness may come with a fine!

In the end, I will probably not try it; not worth the risk. I will probably do something like what Frank suggested above: come up with a contraption that can be used to catch the material as it is brought up off the bottom. Just checking to see if there is any prior art to start from.

Thanks for chiming in!

EngiNerd

P.S. Sometimes, we focus on the wrong details. It clearly states "only shovel and pan techniques". A dredge is clearly not a shovel and pan technique. No biggie, though I now understand why folks run dredges.

 

[goldog]

Do you even have a gravity dredge? Looking at that creek, I'd say get a sluice out and start working it! Shoveling out of a creek can work just fine. It may seem futile at first, but once you've established a small pool the current will calm down. Just point your shovel upstream as much as possible so the water is helping to push material on to your shovel.

 

[russau]

Enginerd, exactly what federal land are you on?

Kevin do you mean public land that is Federaly managed? the Federal gubermint dont own any land,its all publicly owned.

 

[KevinInColorado]

Significant Disturbance...in the medium term, a decent storm can fill in or smooth out even a big hole so NO I never make a significant disturbance, don't even imply such a thing! LOL

As far as the hand pump, I would suggest showing it to the ranger to see what reaction it gets. I bet they say its ok (fingers crossed for you).

...and to my earlier comments about who owns the land and how it's administered...should have checked your profile for location first so, yeah, I was wrong and showing my Western bias I guess Things are very different back east so you have my sympathy.

 

[KevinInColorado]

I stand corrected sir (bows humbly before Russ).

 

[Fullpan]

There's a pic of a modified shovel (2 inches welded to three sides of shovel) posted yesterday by tweeta bear at 6:08 pm on this prospecting page. Some
miners say it really improves the retention of gravel when digging under water.

 

[mytimetoshine]

hand dredge?

 

[KevinInColorado]

There's a pic of a modified shovel (2 inches welded to three sides of shovel) posted yesterday by tweeta bear at 6:08 pm on this prospecting page. Some
miners say it really improves the retention of gravel when digging under water.

I think those special shovels are for sale somewhere too...
http://www.martinproducts.biz/ sells one. No experience with it here but it's just what you are hearing about here.

And here's the hand pump: http://www.gold-n-sand.com/ I have one of these and love it. I'm friends with the guy who owns the company so I'll leave it to others to tell you it's the best pump out there ;-)

 

[fowledup]

KevininColorado beat me to it. I also make them by dividing the face of the shovel into thirds (lengthwise). Then heat the lines that divide the three sections, bending the sides up and in forming right angles. You can cap the back and a small portion of the top end to form a scoop of sorts.

Also....Didn't see the stream pictures so not sure how much flow we are talking about. But something that works for me is to submerge the buckets where I'm digging, then classify and fill the buckets. I would suggest 3 gal buckets as the material will be super concentrated.

 

[EngiNerd]

Do you even have a gravity dredge?

Nope, but it is something you could put together after a couple of trips to any home improvement stores. Do a youtube seach for "gravity dredge for gold", and you will find several good examples. But as I added in my previous post, shovel and panning techniques only.

Just point your shovel upstream as much as possible so the water is helping to push material on to your shovel.

Thanks for the pointer! It seems from the rest of the posts, a shovel and some good practice is all I need to get material out of the stream.

EngiNerd.

 

[EngiNerd]

Significant Disturbance...in the medium term, a decent storm can fill in or smooth out even a big hole

I have found this to be true. I had dug a 1-1/2 foot deep hole in a gravel bar (See my original post above). When I returned a week later, I had a hard time finding where I had dug the hole! It probably got filled in on Sat; there were some large T-storms in the area on Sat.

...and to my earlier comments about who owns the land and how it's administered...should have checked your profile for location first so, yeah, I was wrong and showing my Western bias I guess Things are very different back east so you have my sympathy.

Hey, no problems! Yes, I have found from my readings, that laws for prospecting are very different out west. What I understand is that I can pan on federal owned lands, and on private lands when you get permissions. It also seems states have different rules as well. Here in NC, you are not allowed to do any prospecting of any sort on state owned lands. Though I get the sense that some here would do it anyways; it is only illegal if you get caught??

Thanks for the link to the shovel. Very cool!

 

[EngiNerd]

Also....Didn't see the stream pictures so not sure how much flow we are talking about. But something that works for me is to submerge the buckets where I'm digging, then classify and fill the buckets. I would suggest 3 gal buckets as the material will be super concentrated.

Well, not sure how to judge the speed of the water. It is about knee deep (2-3 feet), but not so fast that my 7 year daughter could not move easily around the stream.

I like your idea of the bucket and classifier; I was thinking along the same line. I need to break down, and buy a good 20 mesh classifier for a 5 gal bucket.

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[EngiNerd]

hand dredge?

Hello!

Yea, nothing mechanized, which would include a hand dredge. Thanks, though!

EngiNerd

 

[Hoser John]

A simple bucket,I like 3 gallon size, is what ya need man,submerge and push gravels into it,tilt up and your good to go. KEEP IT SIMPLE. John

 

[huntsman53]

If EngiNerd is dealing with conditions as I have at times, it is hard enough to keep your footing in the stream much less get a bucket to stay on the bottom. It is a good idea however, if you are not dealing with a high rate of water flow in shallower water than some places I have prospected. Imagine standing in a fast moving stream with water up to your' chin, sinking a shovel as deep as you can possibly get it into the stream bed and then pulling it back to the surface with it full of the heavy white/grey clays intermingled with oranges and browns colors (i.e. due to iron contaminants and local red clays intruding into the white/grey clay). One stream I have worked, the water level was never below my' waist even once in all of the times I worked it and when I was finally able to get to the real concentrations of Gold, I was again standing in the hole I had dug with water back up to my' chin. If the water levels ever dropped enough in this stream, I believe that a person good build a "V" shaped diverter that you would place just upstream from the hole you are digging to divert the fast water flow around you which would create a somewhat calmer flow where you are digging.

EngiNerd, You might want to check with someone of authority about the use of a hand dredge! While yes, it can be considered mechanical because of the moving parts, it is however manual in nature and does not output back into the stream like a dredge. The output back into the stream of sands, soils and other contaminants, is there main reasoning for banning the use of dredges! However, they will probably pull the old, well any kind of suction equipment is detrimental to egg laying habitat and the hatching of fish, frog and other aquatic life in the streams.


Frank

 

[EngiNerd]

Hello Frank!

Thanks for your comments and ideas! In my case, I might get a bucket sideways, and shovel the material in the bucket, as has been suggested above. The water is about 2-3 feet deep in most parts, but the current is going to be the problem. It will want to drag the bucket downstream. To get around this, my thought is to drill some holes on one side of the bucket, near the bottom of the bucket. When I place the bucket sideways in the flow, point these holes up. This will allow some water to flow through the bucket, reducing the drag some. I could also try putting a classifier on the front of the bucket as well. The classified material should settle on bottom of the bucket, while the water escapes out the top. Of course, the water will need to be deeper that the bucket on the side. Might need to drill some on the bottom as well. . . . (I am an electrical engineer, not mechanical, so I might be missing something more fundemental!

I will send an email to the Ranger office here and see what they say, about both a gravity dredge and a hand dredge. It won't hurt to ask! As for fish nests and the such, there are no fish in the stream that I am digging in, so that is not an issue. I am sure the rule is a general one for all national forest lands.

Thanks to everyone for a lively and very informative exchange!!

EngiNerd
(aka Jared)

 

[huntsman53]

Hello Frank!

Thanks for your comments and ideas! In my case, I might get a bucket sideways, and shovel the material in the bucket, as has been suggested above. The water is about 2-3 feet deep in most parts, but the current is going to be the problem. It will want to drag the bucket downstream. To get around this, my thought is to drill some holes on one side of the bucket, near the bottom of the bucket. When I place the bucket sideways in the flow, point these holes up. This will allow some water to flow through the bucket, reducing the drag some. I could also try putting a classifier on the front of the bucket as well. The classified material should settle on bottom of the bucket, while the water escapes out the top. Of course, the water will need to be deeper that the bucket on the side. Might need to drill some on the bottom as well. . . . (I am an electrical engineer, not mechanical, so I might be missing something more fundemental!

I will send an email to the Ranger office here and see what they say, about both a gravity dredge and a hand dredge. It won't hurt to ask! As for fish nests and the such, there are no fish in the stream that I am digging in, so that is not an issue. I am sure the rule is a general one for all national forest lands.

Thanks to everyone for a lively and very informative exchange!!

EngiNerd
(aka Jared)

Jared,

I would seriously reconsider where you might place holes in the bucket! I say this, because you risk losing Gold laden material as the material can flow out of the holes and downstream. If you try the bucket idea, I would advise sinking the bucket to the bottom on it's side, then place a heavy and long flat type rock inside on it's bottom side. Also, place several large rocks on the rear and sides of the bucket to help prevent it from being washed away or dislodged until you have it filled with some material. Once it is at least half full of material, it is doubtful that it will move until you choose to do so!


Frank