Let me get this straight

[MadMarshall]

So I admit I pay very little attention to court cases, yellow legged frogs, and pretty much everything else our government does.. But I have noticed people getting jumped on for calling themselves recreational .. what the deal with this..? And if now they aren't recreation. what are they? And really what does it matter anyway. Seems pretty stupid if you ask me.. Does the word really have that big of impact? Anyway I was just wondering what ludicrous reason their is ..why this word seems to be getting so much attention..

 

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[Aufisher]

If you are recreational, they will trample your rights. If you are professional, they will put you out of business.

 

[Oakview2]

Recreational miners are not covered under the 1872 Mining Laws, the only protection we have left. You do this to make money, so you are a small miner.

 

[MadMarshall]

I do not remember anything written in the 1872 mining laws that stated any difference between recreation or making a living at it. I figured all you had to be was a U.S. Citzen..Didn't matter if you were black ,white gay, straight or fulltime prospector or recreational.. I thought all people were covered by these laws? Why are they not protected under mining law?

 

[Oakview2]

Recreational miners are not covered under the 1872 Mining Laws, the only protection we have left. You do this to make money, so you are a small miner.

The laws original intent was to encourage citizens to create wealth for themselves and for this country, not to encourage hobby. This fact was used against us in Judge Ochoa's decision of denial of injunctive relief, citing a 1994 survey in which most dredge permit reciepients identified themselves as recreational miners.

You may call yourself whatever you like, that is your choice and your right.

 

[MadMarshall]

I just don't get it? The Laws intent? I was under the impression the law was in place to protect a person right to prospect valulable minerals.. I must admit I am confused.. So the way I understand it now.. recreational miners are abusing mining laws outright? Unless your sole intent is to earn all your income from mining you do not have any protection from federal mining Law? so just wondering I suppose with that ruling all claims that are not staked by fulltime prospectors Or in the hands of someone who just uses it recreationally can be challenged for the mineral rights to that property? So if recreational miners are not supported under the mining laws wouldn't that make all their claims null and void? I bet it is pretty easy to prove that someone ain't relying on their claims for a income and definitely have no intention on working it for profit? Any thoughts about that?

 

[Oakview2]

I am not a attorney nor do I prentend to be one on the internet. What the courts seem to be saying is that you are not protected by the 1872 Mining as a recreational miner. I don't pretend to understand it, but that is the circumstances as I understand them. It has no effect on claims, just another club the green machine is using to bash what little brains we have left out.

 

[MadMarshall]

well if you were an attorney you would probably have me really confused I only got schooling to 7th grade... Well anyway I do not see how it can't pertain to claims. Claims are covered in the federal mining laws. Anyway does anybody have the name of the case that made the decision recreational miners have no rights under mining law so I may look it up and read it for myself.. I appreacate you trying to answer my questions and your patience.

One more thing..With the exception of dredging and those stupid frogs.. Who stands to lose mining rights? Everyone or just hobbiest? Are most these court cases for dredging? I just do not see how this really effects an actual miner? regulations and rules will always will be present some stupid some important.. am I correct to assume that with the exception of endangered species and no dredging I have nothing to worry about? I can understand why the clubs are up in Arms no recreational gold prospectors no club! No dredging in Cali means less members! How do these clubs skate by the federal mining laws I wonder? As I bet there income is made up by dues from members not mining?

 

[Oakview2]

Check you personal messages

 

[Oakview2]

“If I had to guess why he felt the miners suffered no harm it would be because about 80 percent of the miners that have been involved in this whole process consider themselves “recreational.” No matter how much we have driven home to the public that they are not considered recreational, they still maintain that they are,” Hobbs said. “Personally, I don’t feel there is such a thing as recreational mining simply because, if someone could show them where they could pan an ounce of gold and hour, you could shoot dice on their shirt tail as they are running to that spot. A mining claim has rules and they are what can be done on a mining claim. Recreation is not on the list.”

 

[KevinInColorado]

I am only a casual, part time miner until I find an awesome deposit...then I take a leave from normal life and dig like a mad fiend. Full time? H-ll, yes! And then some!! My intent to go full time if and when it is worth it means I am never, ever recreational. Do I really expect to find such a deposit? No. But if I do...going pro would be an understatement!!

Oh, and that's true whether I'm on a federal mining claim (best case) or in a public area (usual situation here in metro Denver).

 

[Goldwasher]

I feel like there is a difference and both should have their own types of protections and LOGICAL EASY TO FOLLOW regulations...Look at it like this Vic....the most obvious form of mining in California recently was Dredging. There are certain groups in California who wanted dredging stopped because it was happening on their lands and some people are convinced that it had to be bad for the watersheds it was happening in so before they can prove it is, they use lawyers and the legal system to say. Those dredgers are doing this as a hobby, they spend more buying gear and staying in hotels than they ever recover in gold values so they are clearly doing it for fun a recreation. Therefore the laws giving a citizen or potential U.S. citizen the right to prospect and recover valuable minerals do not Apply those guys to do this. Well, there are actually a large enough percentage of dredgers who are third, second generation locals who do prospect in various ways and do have claims that they turn a profit on. They take issue with the lawyers trying to use the recreational term as a way to devalue what someone is trying to do for themselves. They know that the anti- mining groups are trying to use that as a way to get rid of mining rights. So it is more of a thing like.... dude don't call it recreational the MAN will hear you.....so you don't want groups running around saying we must protect our rights to practice this "Hobby" you want groups running around saying we must preserve the 1872 mining law, as it is logical and not so narrow in scope to prevent certain individuals from trying to use various methods of search and recovery. You personally are feeling the affects of this debate. The hand tool issues in the rec area, and where you are supposed to dig and sluice parking permits, having to join clubs for access all stem from the strangling of the mining laws. That is what is going on and you are stuck right in it and frustrated. Frankly you recover too much gold to call yourself a Recreational Miner. As do I and others on TNET and other forums and the many many who never post a thing online. So to me It almost creates a responsibility and necessity to take issue with the situation and be part of the solution.It is a good things that fellows in clubs are trying to organize and educate, and at least get members to at like professionals. Its not a bad thing.

 

[bug]

Your a small scale gold miner and the law protects us under that description, but there is no law that gives us rights to relationally go about digging up minerals. Thats how I read it. Unfortunately the way the public lands are so often re-designated with mineral withdrawals, special use areas, critical habitats, rec areas, emergency closures... there is less and less public land open for mining. The Feds dont need you out there mining anymore anyway, they just create the digital money now.
Gold gives a man freedom which is the last thing the government wants you to have. You can bank on it, these old laws which give some form of protection for prospecting and mining on public lands will be pulled off the books in the near future.

 

[Mad Machinist]

You guys actually have some of this wrong. It isn't the eco's per se, that want the little guy put of business. It's the big miner's who are funneling money into the eco's coffers. Many of them, not all, want the little guys put out of business because they hate competition.

 

[Hoser John]

When you are seeking--you are prospecting--when found and recovery starts you are mining and recreation is FUN and not work and NOT mentioned in the 1872 laws anywhere even once. They were promulgated to increase the nations wealth and provide a precise way to mine these minerals under the color of law. Massive clubs with their recreational bs have given the government many a reason to tie us up in courts for the last 20 years. Pay to play on YOUR federal lands is a sham,skam and flim flam. Small local yokel clubs that cost a few bucks give you 1000% the support,knowledge and help than any mega ever did. Recreational has proven in court to be the death of mining just as that insipid bs from CDFG questionaire,that I sent back empty and told 'm to kiss my arse, did as newbies lied their butts off. Oh ya I move 1,000 yards a year with a 2"-hahaha or we dredged the Sacramento 1,600+ hours when it's been CLOSED SINCE 91 above the dam and many MANY years closed below(more than 30 years) but oh ya recreational miners were there..sooooooo much bs,just like the 20 forked point buck and the 50 lb trout...John

 

[Fullpan]

Just looking at your personal situation, MM - you consider yourself a sniper who cracks bedrock for a significant amount of living expense - you're good at it, work hard at it, and are rewarded for your efforts. we have seen many vids by you showing exactly how you go about your work. There is currently no law that prohibits you. But say, your videos go viral - what happens then? Consider 5,000 people get excited and join you to "crack bedrock". Now the greenies watch the videos and observe others sniping with hand tools. What will be the outcome of no longer "flying under the radar"? You guessed it - they'll scream bloody murder about "destroying the fragile eco-system" blah, blah, and since you have zero political power and zero defense dollars, it'll take the greenies one legislative session to ban your activities - fair warning.

 

[MadMarshall]

I remember reading the mining laws and thinking how many things just didn't add up with how things are today.. I still see companies selling recreational gold claims all the time.. I am starting to wonder if these clubs and so called prospectors who rely on selling claims or making equipment to make their living are the one doing the most harm? I remember speaking with Pat keene and the one impression that stuck with me is that he is no miner!! He is not the only one.. I have met a few people who are respected and make some kind of living whether it be by making instructional videos or equipment or just teaching people but the fact of the matter is they do not know or can't find gold in paying quanity. Also it seems to me that if recreational mining was not a Business that Pat and allot of these people who make all this gold recovery equipment would be hurting for a dollor as most of this crap they make is only for recreation and not very practical for a man of intent. I would hate to think that the clubs and toy makers are the one speaking for the mining community! Seems they might have their own agenda.. Any thoughts

 

[Goldwasher]

Keene makes their money overseas selling quality production equipment. They don't really make toys. I havn't really seen claims for sale as "recreational" and it really would just be a label. If you dug enough of the high-grade material you do, and needed to run it in a manner more productive than a pan or sluice you can build or buy...Keene and proline have been around for years and have excellent customer service and make nice useful gear. Mining is an industry and Industry requires equipment in our modern economy someone will make it and someone will buy it...and you do have a choice. Keene engineering is one of the main financial backers of the fight to keep us legally digging and the boys have grown up mining and we are all lucky they decided to stay in the family business rather than becoming say real estate developers or Lawyers..If they make their bread and butter in place that don't have the tight regulations we do, you can't really say they are trying to keep mining alive in the states for their bottom line. It would seem they are doing it because they believe in it. The people doing the most harm are the self serving ones who don't follow rules, are self serving in their agenda, don't speak of the positives that the recovery of minerals and their benefit to the economy can have. Those guys out there that are convinced that the other people who are out there digging in same way are doing it wrong, or in the right place or undeserved place. Because of the amount they recover. Those guys out there that just complain with not even an attempt at solution. The guys that think they are better than their peers and do nothing to build up the less successful and less experienced. The guy who always is on the High horse and never ever compliments the guys who finds his first few specks. The guys like that are a huge part of the problem.

 

[MadMarshall]

Just looking at your personal situation, MM - you consider yourself a sniper who cracks bedrock for a significant amount of living expense - you're good at it, work hard at it, and are rewarded for your efforts. we have seen many vids by you showing exactly how you go about your work. There is currently no law that prohibits you. But say, your videos go viral - what happens then? Consider 5,000 people get excited and join you to "crack bedrock". Now the greenies watch the videos and observe others sniping with hand tools. What will be the outcome of no longer "flying under the radar"? You guessed it - they'll scream bloody murder about "destroying the fragile eco-system" blah, blah, and since you have zero political power and zero defense dollars, it'll take the greenies one legislative session to ban your activities - fair warning.

I am not sure how I missed your post. I understand what you are saying and I admit I do hold some fear the same fear that makes wonder if I really do have rights or just privalages!!!. As I am sure allot of you know it is not as easy as cracking open a crack and BAM there is gold.. But I do hope people watch my videos and I suspect people may think it's easy to find gold and try it.. nothing wrong with that most will fail history as proven that.. But they have a right to try! No real difference then some one moving to Hollywood to be an actor the odds are against them but they still have the right to try. As for the greenies well I will have to cross that bridge when it comes.. I honestly doubt that they can stop all types of mining as gold is worth money and money talks! now I suspect once a difinitive line is distingeshed between mining and recreation allot of issues will fall wayside. but lets say that the greenies win and no more small scale mining and Blm and the Forest service government back them up. Do you really think that will put a stop to mining? I Suspect it may be like the acholol prohibition..Might turn bloody..I know quite a few men who are of the mind that we have rights to land despite government say's.. like I said gold has value and I figure no matter what rules or regulations or bans are in place small scale mining will always be present.. The only question is what men are willing to do to get the gold? I suspect anything and everything! maybe that why the forest service and other state parks are getting guns tazers ect ect..They seem to be making a transition from land management to law enforcement.

 

[MadMarshall]

Goldwasher I didn't mean to undermine anyone who makes products for mining.. As you are right all industries require equipment.. But I know from experience that 3/4 of the stuff being sold is for recreational prospecting and has no real practical use in actual mining..Nothing wrong with that...As long it makes a buck.. But I can't help but wonder how much of their income is dependant on Recreation miners? Probaly quite a bit.. For me I can't see what difference is other then the issue of Recreation Versus small scale prospectors Now if some of these Prospectors/equipment makers could prove they work their properties and are trying to make a living as a miner that is one thing but when these guys hold on to valuable claims so they can go have fun and find gold and play then it seems they are misusing the laws!! I have met a whole slew of men who come from generations of propsectors Doesn't mean crap in my book I am more concerned about what a man does not his daddy or grandpa... Hell those 4 girls on that new gold show come from a family of miners really doesn't mean much does it. It seems to me that prospectors may have an actual chance if they were being represented by actual miners who are succsefull at making a living prospecting.. I am against people holding claims that have no real intention on working it only playing or using it as private camping rec areas. I am of the mind that only a handful of claims are actually worked and a many a man of worth has been dicked over by people abusing mining law. if you make your wage from minerals you are a miner!! If you make your wage from other means then you be that!! I make crappy videos doe'nt make me a Director actor... The fact is if these people really gave a crap about miners and rights they wouldn't be misusing the privalages granted by the laws..They would be prospecting for fun on Public lands as a hobby..Not staking claims for they have somewhere to play prospector!!Iam of the mind the whole purpose for claims is to find and work a valuable deposit..that is how I interpreted mining law. Am I wrong?? I think it is crazy for the very men who put me in this pickle are the very men speaking out to stop it! Why do I not feel conforted that I my rights are being looked after?