Need a lawyer for making operation plan?

[muttman]

Has anyone used a lawyer to help file a claim and then taken the claim to be permitted for a small placer operation?


Looks like pretty intense paperwork. Looking at full time backhoe, 20-30 ton an hour trommel and small collection tank.

Water would be trucked in and recirculated.
Basically zero overburden.

Was looking for info about reclamation and soil sample. I just don't know if/how much i need to provide to the BLM/county.

I have a meeting set in wyoming in early August and want to be as well informed as possible. ( I don't currently live in the state). Just reading these documents about the rules is all govt speak so can be confusing.

I would appreciate any info,

Thanks, mutt

 

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[muttman]

The correct term is notice of intent. Not plan of operation..for the pervious question.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Filing a claim isn't all that hard to do and should not require a lawyers help at all. First you have to research the area and make sure that it open to filing. Then get out and do some testing. If you find anything that might be worth claiming, then post your monument of discovery. Not sure about Wyoming, but here in Arizona it's good for 90 days and if you haven't filed on it by that time you have to post a new discovery. During that 90 day period, test, test and test some more to determine for sure if it's worth claiming. If it is, then you have to go to the recorders office for the county that the claim is located in to file. Have a proper description of the claims location and what ever fees they require for the county. Once you have that paperwork in hand you need to take or send a copy of it to the BLM along with their fees. ($140 per 20 acres or part there of) Once it goes through them they will send you your registration number for the claim. If you can't do testing then don't bother to file. You might be throwing your money away on worthless ground.

You also seem to be putting the cart before the horse when it comes to your equipment. The terrain should dictate what type of equipment you need. Going out and spending money for gear that just won't work isn't real smart. Make sure the gear is what you actually need before you spend your $$$$$$ !!!!! Recirculating systems are just about the only way we can do wet work at our claim but it sounds like you're under estimating the amount of water you will need for the stated equipment. A small collection tank isn't going to cut it if you're running that much material. your water will soon be mud and your sluice(s) will be flat boarding because they can't clear out the tailing materials.

A P.O.O. is only needed if you're going to be doing things that are not considered as normal mining practice. A Notice of Intent (NOI) may be all you need to file with the forest service if the claim is located in a national forest. To the best of my knowledge, neither a POO or NOI is required if the claim is not on national forest land as those are both forest service documents. You will need to check with the locals on what permits if any they require.

There are a LOT of good miners on this forum and they are usually willing to help a guy out. When it comes to mining laws and requirements, Clay Diggins and Bejay are a couple of the best. I would suggest that you become familiar with the mining laws as best you can. A well informed miner can often be working while others around him are shut down by the F.S. because they believed the rangers B.S. If you don't know the laws at least passably well then you'll end up spending a lot of $$$ on lawyers.

 

[Jimmydolittle]

I would think it would be nearly impossible to find a lawyer versed in mining rules, and regs anyway.

 

[muttman]

Thanks for the info.


I have the place and know the land makeup. Now I'm off to test for a few days with my boys and meet with locals.

I understand the beginning of the process my main concern is the scope of the project which we like to proceed with.

Do I need a notice of intent or a plan of operation? I'm still two years away from implementation so have the time but want to do it right the first time.

Again thanks for all info

Mutt

 

[muttman]

Besides paperwork, water is our main concern. Although close to water 250 yards away. I'm worried that it will be impossible to use.

I've calculated using a 20,000 gallon holding flexible tank. For a trommel that needs 500 gal a min. I know the tank will need to be cleaned out and refilled often ( just don't know how often.

 

[Mad Machinist]

Actually the N.O.I AND P.O.O. are very much BLM documents. The N.O.I. is typically used if the TOTAL surface disturbance from mining activities are 5 acres or less a year. The P.O.O. is typically used for more.

Read 43 CFR 3809 and you'll see what I mean. 43 CFR 3809

 

[Prospector70]

I'd hire a geologist instead. Make your wife do the paperwork...

 

[muttman]

I'd hire a geologist instead. Make your wife do the paperwork...

Could but she's not a native English speaker. Doubt it would ever get done.

 

[winners58]

mom and pop operations that just use smaller farm type equipment might not need a full plan and bond if it disturbs less than an acre at a time.
Might try to work under the radar as "recreation miner" dig hole put water and dredge in hole.
check here you may need to contact DEQ;
Wyoming Department of Environmental Quality
forms and check lists;
Wyoming Department of Environmental Quality Mining Operations

 

[muttman]

mom and pop operations that just use smaller farm type equipment might not need a full plan and bond if it disturbs less than an acre at a time.
Might try to work under the radar as "recreation miner" dig hole put water and dredge in hole.
check here you may need to contact DEQ;
Wyoming Department of Environmental Quality
forms and check lists;
Wyoming Department of Environmental Quality Mining Operations

I would rather do it 100% right and spend more $$ than cut corners with the Feds.

Thanks for the informative links but I've read most of them. Just can't wrap my head around exactly what they want. For the scale of the project I have in mind.

Reclamation and if I can run water straight from the river..

 

[Bejay]

Filing a claim is easy. No would not use an attorney. I would ask other miners in your area....and do some research.

The following may be helpful........As miners we often hear the following from the Gov agencies:

"As a reminder, in order to work your mining claim, you will need to submit a NOI (notice of intent) and have an approved Plan of Operation (POO). Please work with our office to get an authorized Plan of Operations for your mining activities at your earliest convenience. Until you have an approved plan, any mining activities, associated equipment or occupancy of National Forest System lands is prohibited...... Or "BLM"

----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------

Regardless of the local stay limit, an operator is not required to submit a notice of intent to conduct operations unless the locatable mineral prospecting, exploration or mining, and processing, and the reasonably incidental camping, might cause significant disturbance of NFS surface resources.

Moreover, as discussed above, an approved plan of operations is not required for locatable mineral prospecting, exploration or mining, and processing, and the reasonably incidental camping, unless those operations are likely to cause a significant disturbance of surface resources.

An operator, consequently, is not required to notify the Forest Service prior to conducting locatable mineral operations which involve occupancy of NFS lands providing that those operations meet two conditions: (1) The occupancy is reasonably incidental to locatable mineral prospecting, exploration, mining, or processing and (2) those proposed (or ongoing) operations, including such reasonably incidental occupancy, cumulatively will not cause (or are not causing) significant disturbance of NFS surface resources.

To the extent that respondents fear the Forest Service might cite an operator who is camping on NFS for the operator's failure to submit a notice of intent to operate when one is required, those fears are groundless. None of the prohibitions set forth in 36 CFR part 261, subpart A, including those adopted by this final rule, prohibit an action requiring a notice of intent to operate. Rather, the prohibitions applicable to occupancy of lands in conjunction with locatable mineral operations that require prior notice or approval apply when an operator acts ''without *** an operating plan when such authorization is required.'' For purposes of 36 CFR part 228, subpart A, Sec. 261.2 defines the term ''operating plan'' to mean a plan of operations that has been approved. There is no prohibition applicable to acting without a notice of intent to operate when it is required by 36 CFR part 228, subpart A.

----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------

So that is what is meant by "occupation" in the new (2008) regs. The Forest Service are stuck with it now, you can hold them to those definitions in a court of law. The courts can not allow "deference" to any other definition of what those regs mean.

Also by publishing those definitions in the Federal Register all Forest Service personnel are now put on actual and constructive notice of what those regs mean. No excuses.

Now do you can understand how important it is that you have written proof that the district rangers intend to enforce those regulations without regard to their actual meaning? Color of law. Intimidation and harassment.

Recently a miner submitted a NOI to the USFS and after 21 days the miner never received a response from the USFS to their NOI. After 21 days the agency would have had to respond. I'll post more info regarding this shortly.
===============================================================
So the question about an NOI involves starting the process of entering into a contract with an agency. And a POO (and bond) involves a contract with an administrative agency. When you have that contract (Plan of Operations): That POO and the agency's regulations should be all you need to understand your obligations under the contract you signed. If you and that agency disagree with the meaning of your contract an administrative hearing will clear those disagreements up.

Lets only deal with mining law and let miners and the administrative agency they contract with sort out any such agreement. I know many now have thus attempted to contract with the U.S. Forest Service. Their regulations are similar to BLM but not the same. The BLM regulations are found at 43 CFR and the Parks, Forests and Public Property regulations are found at 36 CFR.

To give miners a start I will just leave this here:

36 CFR
228.13(d) When reclamation has been completed in accordance with §228.8(g), the authorized officer will notify the operator that performance under the bond has been completed: Provided, however, That when the Forest Service has accepted as completed any portion of the reclamation, the authorized officer shall notify the operator of such acceptance and reduce proportionally the amount of bond thereafter to be required with respect to the remaining reclamation.


You may wonder if your contract (POO) is terminated when you sell, lease or transfer your claim.

§ 3809.593 What happens to my financial
guarantee if I transfer my operations?
You remain responsible for obligations or conditions created while you conducted operations unless a transferee accepts responsibility under §3809.116, and BLM accepts an adequate replacement financial guarantee. Therefore, your financial guarantee must remain in effect until BLM determines that you are no longer responsible for all or part of the operation. BLM can release your financial guarantee on an incremental basis. The new operator must provide a financial guarantee before BLM will allow the new operator to conduct operations.

§ 3809.116 As a mining claimant or operator, what are my responsibilities under this subpart for my project area?

(a) Mining claimants and operators (if other than the mining claimant) are liable for obligations under this subpart that accrue while they hold their interests.
(b) Relinquishment, forfeiture, or abandonment of a mining claim does not relieve a mining claimant's or operator's responsibility under this subpart for obligations that accrued or conditions that were created while the mining claimant or operator was responsible for operations conducted on that mining claim or in the project area.
(c) Transfer of a mining claim or operation does not relieve a mining claimant's or operator's responsibility under this subpart for obligations that accrued or conditions that were created while the mining claimant or operator was responsible for operations conducted on that mining claim or in the project area until—
(1) BLM receives documentation that a transferee accepts responsibility for the transferor's previously accrued obligations, and
(2) BLM accepts an adequate replacement financial guarantee adequate to cover such previously accrued obligations and the transferee's new obligations.

Only the entity or his lessees are a subject of the POO contract. Subsequent mineral estate grantees are not bound by that contract. They are not obligated by previous POO or NOI contracts to make a NOI or POO themselves no matter what a prior claimant or grantee did. The POO quite clearly encompasses much more than reclamation, only the bond or financial guarantee relates to the reclamation portion of the POO.

There is no difference in the law between what you call a land claim or a dredge claim. You are still mining minerals whether they are covered by water, dirt or poo.

All of this relates to administrative contracts. There is no obligation to file a NOI under the law if the grantee does not believe his planned mining will create a significant surface degradation on the adjacent public lands. And should a miner submit a NOI the agency must respond within 21 days or the NOI is simply non-existent. (the CFR and USC language supporting this can be posted later).

Until a grantee makes a contract with a surface administration agency the CFR is just a rule book for administrative employees. Once an NOI or POO is submitted the whole text of the relevant CFRs becomes a part of that contract by reference. It then becomes the sole obligation of the miner to refute, administratively; any portion of those regulations he/she feels should not apply to his contract. Good luck with that futile effort - you may as well quote Lincoln to the "Judge" (administrative hearing officer)....IMHO


As long as you stay under 5 acres of disturbance, you can file a SMES (small miner's exclusion statement). If you go over 5 acres, you have to file an EIS (environmental impact statement). You don't want to get involved with as EIS, because it could take years, and thousands of $ to get approved. And yes access roads are included in the 5 acres.

Consider that the courts have ruled that each circumstance is different. They have ruled that significant surface disturbance may be reached by:

Any portion of a steep slope in a particular portion of an old growth forest.
5 acres or more in a particular portion of a pinion/juniper forest.
Unlimited amounts of a particular desert scrubland.
And many more particular to the location and circumstances.

Please note that underground tunnels and workings are exempt from consideration because they are not on the surface, however the tailing piles and ponds are of particular interest because they are, by nature, surface events.

I think where a lot of the confusion about this issue comes from two false assumptions:

1. That the CFR is law and controls mining under the mineral grant.
2. That the term "significant surface disturbance" applies to the actual mining on the surface of your mineral grant.

Neither of these assumptions apply to the mineral grant. They may be applicable to leased, sold or non-locatable minerals.

I tend to think that the CFR intentionally mixed these different types of rights, privileges and licenses into one big mass so as to fool miners under the grant and enrich the lawyer friends of the lawyers who wrote the CFR. No matter what I think of the intent that has certainly been the effect of the CFR.

If you study the actual mining laws and put the CFR and the USC out of your perception for now you will gain a much clearer and simple view of the rights and responsibilities associated with the mineral grant. Gaining a clear understanding of the very real difference between Public Lands subject to claim of right under the mineral grant and Public Domain that has been claimed under that grant will complete the picture.


As I have stated, I have no interest in the administration of the NOI and POO contracts some miners exchange for their grant. I leave that for those foolish enough to argue their contractual agreements after they have committed their word and bond to an ever changing Code of Federal Regulations. If you have entered one of these contracts you are bound by law and your bond to bow to that agencies wishes and interpretations. You can hold their feet to the fire over procedural missteps but you can not rely on the mineral grant to provide any guidance or rights within the administrative sphere you have contracted into. The potential penalties possible when in the administrative contract are truly unlimited. The bond can only be applied to reclamation as per your agreement, and can be raised, refused or the conditions modified at the will of your counter party (BLM or Forest Service). Any other infractions of your contract, whether willful, inadvertent or perceived can and will lead to monetary fines. It is virtually impossible to meet the conditions of your NOI or POO contract when regulation is a moving target changed at the moments notice by the current local unit administrator's opinion on the meaning of any particular regulation. IMHO

The Constitution guarantees us the right to make contract. It does not guarantee us the wisdom to refuse contracts that are against our own interest. Each NOI or POO is a privately negotiated contract. I know of no way to make an open ended contract fair to either party, yet we still have the right to make such a contract. Perhaps some men are capable of making an agreement, that is in their favor, to give up their mineral estate grant in exchange for administrative oversight. I have yet to witness that but I do know that large mining companies do so to their advantage so I must admit there is a possibility of an individual man doing so.

My point is that under the mineral estate grant all non relative comments ring false. There has been no diminution of that grant. The mental mixing of administrative regulations and our organic right to claim, work and patent valuable mineral lands open to entry is just that - mental mixing. There is no valid intersection between the two despite the efforts of some of our government servants to convince us so. The case of Tracy is one of many proving that to be a fact.

So it would be wise to consider that miners should choose to enjoy their mineral estate grant. If you were to be so bold as to damage the Public Lands (or private lands) beyond your mineral claim you will almost certainly be charged with a tort for that damage. By all right and law you would be liable for that damage. There is no need or sense in attempting to follow regulations that do not apply to the mineral grant on some misguided idea that the government has made an incursion on your mineral rights. There is no such law.

Those knowledgeable should advise against blindly signing any form of agreement, without first understanding what door might be opened, that may very well later haunt you.

Personally I would never offer or suggest that I am favor of giving away, or allowing any right to be taken away from any miner, nor have I been a supporter of filing any paperwork that is not needed or required.

This may be true of the administrative contract involved in leased, sold or non-locatable minerals. There has been no abridgment of the mineral estate grant unless you consider the mining of hydrocarbons and building stone to be an integral part of the organic grant.

In closing, I will continue to point out to those that ask, to learn the mining laws, obey them, know what documents you are required to sign, know the ramifications of doing so and be good stewards of the land.

And by all means.. enjoy your claim and efforts.
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In support of the miner to occupy and perform the task of mining:

The U.S. Court of Appeal for the Ninth District has upheld in its entirety the 1872 Mining Laws. In the case of USA vs. Shumway, opinion filed 12/28/1999, regarding mining claims and mill site claims, Judge Kleinfeld has ruled that the mining law is still in effect.
He states in section 14938 "...the Forest Service may regulate use of National Forest lands by holders of unpatented mining claims... but only to the extent that the regulations are 'reasonable' and do not impermissibly encroach on legitimate use incident to mining and mill site claims. Congress has refused to repeal the Mining Law of 1872. ADMINISTRATIVE AGENCIES LACK AUTHORITY EFFECTIVELY TO REPEAL THE STATUTE BY REGULATIONS."
Other highlights of this ruling state: Sec 14923: "Despite much contemporary hostility to the Mining Law of 1872 and high level political pressure by influential individuals and organizations for its repeal, all repeal efforts have failed, and it remains the law."
"The locators of all mining locations...so long as they comply with the laws...shall have the EXCLUSIVE right of possession and enjoyment of ALL surface located within the lines of their location..."
Sec 14925: "In law, the word 'claim' in connection with the phrase "mining claim" represents a federally recognized right in real property. The Supreme Court has established that a mining 'claim' is not a claim in the ordinary sense of the word, but rather is a property interest, which is itself real property in every sense..." "The court held that the unpatented 'title of a locator' is "property in the fullest sense of the word."
Sec 14927: "When the location of a mining claim is perfected under the law, it has the effect of a grant by the United States of the right of PRESENT AND EXCLUSIVE POSSESSION. The claim is property in the fullest sense of the term."
In ruling on the 1955 Multiple Use Act:
Sec 14927 and 14928: "Mining claims located after the effective date of the 1955 Act are subject...to a right of the United States to manage surface resources for the government and whomever it permits to do so to use the surface, SO LONG AS THEY DO NOT ENDANGER OR MATERIALLY INTERFERE WITH PROSPECTING, MINING, OR PROCESSING."
Sec 14936: "The Multiple Use Act empowers the Forest Service to regulate NON-MINING activity upon mining claims, so long as the non-mining activity DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH MINING ACTIVITIES..."
Sec 14928 and 14929: "...an unpatented mining claim remains a fully recognized possessory interest and that FEDERAL MINING CLAIMS ARE PRIVATE PROPERTY WHICH ENJOY THE FULL PROTECTION OF THE FIFTH AMENDMENT."
Sec 14931: The owner of a mining claim owns property, and IS NOT A MERE SOCIAL GUEST OF THE DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR..."
To reiterate:
Sec 14938 and 14939: "...the Forest Service may regulate use of National Forest Lands by holders of unpatented mining claims, BUT ONLY TO THE EXTENT THAT THE REGULATIONS ARE "REASONABLE" AND DO NOT IMPERMISSIBLY ENCROACH ON LEGITIMATE USES INCIDENT TO MINING AND MILL SITE CLAIMS. CONGRESS HAS REFUSED TO REPEAL THE MINING LAW OF 1872. ADMINISTRATIVE AGENCIES LACK AUTHORITY EFFECTIVELY TO REPEAL THE STATUTE BY REGULATIONS."
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Hicks vs United States

The Forest Service has no power to write laws. They are however bound by the law. Steve Hicks did not win this case because the Forest Service Regulations left a loophole, he won the case because the Forest Service had no right to prevent his ingress and egress to the private property (mining claim). The Forest Service has no right to make a regulation, ruling or order that violates private property rights. The Forest Service violated the law and violated Steve Hicks right to the peaceable enjoyment of his private property right. Specifically this law among others:


CHAPTER 2 SUBCHAPTER I Section 478" style="vertical-align: text-bottom;" alt="Originally posted by U.S.C. TITLE 16 CHAPTER 2 SUBCHAPTER I Section 478" src="forum_images/quote_box.png" U.S.C. TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 478 wrote:



Section 478. Egress or ingress of actual settlers; prospecting

Nothing in sections 473 to 478, 479 to 482 and 551 of this title shall be construed as prohibiting the egress or ingress of actual settlers residing within the boundaries of national forests, or from crossing the same to and from their property or homes; and such wagon roads and other improvements may be constructed thereon as may be necessary to reach their homes and to utilize their property under such rules and regulations as may be prescribed by the Secretary of Agriculture. Nor shall anything in such sections prohibit any person from entering upon such national forests for all proper and lawful purposes, including that of prospecting, locating, and developing the mineral resources thereof. Such persons must comply with the rules and regulations covering such national forests.

----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------

So when the USFS advises a miner that they can not occupy their claim or perform the act of mining without FIRST submitting an NOI a miner might want to remind them of such rulings!
==============================================================
Title 36: Parks, Forests, and Public Property
PART 228-MINERALS
Subpart A-Locatable Minerals

§ 228.4 Plan of operations-notice of intent-requirements.

(vii) Operations for which a proposed plan of operations is submitted for approval;

(2) The District Ranger will, within 15 days of receipt of a notice of intent to operate, notify the operator if approval of a plan of operations is required before the operations may begin.
____________________________________

Notice that the District Ranger is only required to:

"notify the operator IF approval of a plan of operations is required"That IF means the District Ranger IS NOT required to "notify the operator" IF no plan of operations is required.

If the person submitting the NOI doesn't hear from the District Ranger within 15 days (+ a reasonable time for mail) it is safe to assume that the District Ranger has determined that the proposed mining will NOT constitute a "significant surface disturbance".
================================================================
So a miner may think:
"That's all fine & dandy & I agree with you on all of it, "BUT" then you have the district ranger who decides whether or not what you are doing is considered a significant disturbance in "HIS" eyes and he shuts you down because he doesn't want you doing anything on the so called PRECIOUS FEDERAL LAND.I think this is what most people think, including some of the Rangers. But that's not the way it works."

The regulation at CFR 228.4 says:
If the District Ranger determines
that any operation is causing or will
likely cause significant disturbance of
surface resources, the District Ranger
shall notify the operator that the oper-
ator must submit a proposed plan of
operations for approval and that the
operations can not be conducted until a
plan of operations is approved. I've put the important part in bold. The District Ranger must make a determination. That determination must be made after a study of the existing conditions on the ground and must contain expert opinions as well as a full EIS. Since the 9th Circuit decided that a determination must include consultation with other interested agencies and consideration of the ESA the whole thing becomes a big expensive production for the District Ranger.

The upshot of this is that the District Ranger can't just act on his own opinion. He has to go through the whole process of making a "determination". Instead what they usually do is charge the miner with not having a "special use permit" under CFR 261 and order his operation shut down. This is an attempt an an end run around the law. Miners are not subject to permits and the courts have consistently ruled that special use permits do not apply to mining.

The District Ranger is counting on the miner not knowing that special use permits have nothing to do with mining. An informed miner will challenge the improper use of regulations to interfere with his mining and in every case will win. The uninformed miner finds himself in a confusing mass of regulations where he can find no traction to get himself mining again.

Please read the Steve Hicks case(PDF) for a good recent example of how the Forest Service improperly uses the special use permit instead of following their own regulations which require the much more complex and expensive determination.

Don't ever believe that it is a matter of the District Rangers opinion as to whether there is a requirement for a mining plan of operation. It just isn't that easy.
==========================================================

Don't ever accept an In House EA, (Environmental Assessement)........always challenge in court and get a judge to request the Gov agency perform an EIS (Environmental Impact Statement)....then it is at the cost of the Gov agency to perform the extremely costly EIS and not the miner.
Bejay

 

[Hoser John]

blm.gov portal has the How to file a claim info online so download to your computer. What state you are in?? predicates who,what and how as many states have also got into the game with their own insane regs,rules and bs. Kalif no dredges nyet zero zilch and ya can't get any crazier than that. Or EPA permit in Idaho and many MANY more issues to add to the pile a paperwork-John