black sand clean up

[M3R1IN]

I was out prospecting in Montana last weekend
and there was this old guy who just showed up and started sluicing upstream from me a ways
He seemed friendly so i decided to go chat with him
he gave me a lot of useful info and let me pick his brain about the local geography and different techniques
he saw that i had a large amount of black sand and said i should take some nitric acid to that and i would be amazed at how much gold would release from the lot. I explained that i am canadian and that nitric acid and mercury are very difficult to obtain here without a business licence
I am wondering on procedure for cleaning black sands with nitric acid and if anyone knows any industrial applications for nitric acid
whereby i could obtain it with less difficulty?
thanks

 

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[chlsbrns]

I guess an iPhone would seem like nonsense to an 18th century man. It's all a matter of experience - or no experience in this case.

The simple fact that you don't grasp a complex concept does not make it disappear. If you spent any of the time you use to try to prove your theories correct on actually researching things like hedging or ROI or commercial micron gold recovery you would appear much more intelligent and you would actually gain knowledge. As it stands you would offer us greasy burlap and poor math skills.

I don't bother with micron gold because there is no profit in it for the small miner. My break even begins at 3 grams a yard processed with well established but customized commercial methods. 1.8 grams a yard is unprofitable for a small miner. Only huge mining companies and recreational "miners" bother with trying to recover invisible gold. Both have good reasons for doing so. One for profit and the other for enjoyment.

If you are going to pretend to instruct miners on mining I think you need to bring more to the discussion than a picture of a gold button and some google links. Please share real stuff like material worked, method of working, amount and percentage of recovered metals and return on investment including all costs. If you want others to learn from your superior knowledge you will need to give us more than an attitude. Otherwise you might as well pay the $20 vig and join the others arguing over on the Members Only political forum.

Heavy Pans

The poor math skills was sarcasm. The back and forth is making me dizzy.

I can guarantee you that there is a whole lot more than 1.8 grams/ton in your black sand cons.

I guess that you have nothing on topic to share here?

 

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[GoldpannerDave]

Don't break my balls Barry this is from The GOOGLE!!!!!!!!!!!What is the Cost of Mining Gold? - Visual Capitalist

A good quote from your article, " The average grade of the top 50 producing [mines] by size and by grade is 5.3 g/t." There is a reason for that. Several large producers do 0.1 oz / ton (or about 3.1 grams per ton) when they can surface mine and cyanide the ore. Last I check, the Cripple Creek & Victor Mine was about half that at 1.5 grams per ton--but they are a very low cost operation. This was when I went on a tour there with the senior Chemistry majors from the Air Force Academy.

I don't know anyone doing a third of the grade CCV (though I could be wrong).

 

[Clay Diggins]

I can guarantee you that there is a whole lot more than 1.8 grams/ton in your black sand cons.

I guess that you have nothing on topic to share here?

Thanks for the "guarantee". That's worth even less on the internet than a greasy burlap sack. I'm guessing you have never worked a deposit with no appreciable black sands nor any "micron" gold?

I did share on topic first hand knowledge. Once again you failed to read or understand what was clearly written:

I don't bother with micron gold because there is no profit in it for the small miner. My break even begins at 3 grams a yard processed with well established but customized commercial methods. 1.8 grams a yard is unprofitable for a small miner. Only huge mining companies and recreational "miners" bother with trying to recover invisible gold. Both have good reasons for doing so. One for profit and the other for enjoyment.

You may not like the facts but that doesn't change reality.

So what are your base and target pH values in your "vortex" processing setup?

Heavy Pans

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Please end the insults and arguing.... Anyone trying to start another argument among you after this post can count on a time out..

 

[chlsbrns]

Anyone wanting to try this... It's not rocket science. For small amounts of black sands you can use 3% peroxide. The same stuff that you can buy at any dollar store. It's cheap enough that you can pour it full strength into your pan or capped funnel.

We do large quantities and use Sodium Percarbonate. The stuff in oxyclean. It's powder and cheap. A few cups in a 60 gallon cone bottom tank will work fine.

There is no need to worry about ph unless your water is extremely acidic or alkaline

 

[winners58]

Please use caution following some "recipe" what may work on one deposit could have disastrous results on another with a different chemical makeup.
what happens when someone from an area with a high silver content uses Hydrogen peroxide at the very least it could heat up then what put in mercury .
what kind of funnel or cone bottom tank should it be stainless steel
or can we use an aluminum one and a have the mercury react violently with that.

Still not convinced that its the gold that's attracted to the oil but rather the sulfides and the gold is locked in the sulfides,
in the flotation processes oil is used to "wet" the sulfides then its bubbled into a froth that is skimmed off then processed.

I have heard of black sands with lots more gold locked inside such as beach deposits
where they doubled or tripled their gold production by saving all their heavies
then grinding them to break the bond with the black sand.

 

[chlsbrns]

Please use caution following some "recipe" what may work on one deposit could have disastrous results on another with a different chemical makeup.
what happens when someone from an area with a high silver content uses Hydrogen peroxide at the very least it could heat up then what put in mercury .
what kind of funnel or cone bottom tank should it be stainless steel
or can we use an aluminum one and a have the mercury react violently with that.

Still not convinced that its the gold that's attracted to the oil but rather the sulfides and the gold is locked in the sulfides,
in the flotation processes oil is used to "wet" the sulfides then its bubbled into a froth that is skimmed off then processed.

I have heard of black sands with lots more gold locked inside such as beach deposits
where they doubled or tripled their gold production by saving all their heavies
then grinding them to break the bond with the black sand.

Watch this video. The guy puts a pure silver bar in 3% peroxide "to heat it up" and cause a reaction. Pure or near pure peroxide can be used to make rockets because it reacts with silver. 3% peroxide with minute silver particles isnt going to do much of anything.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5uAonn4T-Us

He also puts a gold coin in the heated peroxide. It cleaned the coin!

Im sure that an aluminum cone bottom tank could be purchased and that it would be much much more than the plastic tanks that we use. Anyone using mercury to process large quantities of black sand would know that it reacts violently with aluminum.

Gold encapsulated in gold sand is a myth that will never go away. Mines with sulphide ores use roasters to burn off tje sulphide. If you put your bs in a pan and heat it and smell rotten eggs its the sulphide coating burning off. Hydrogen peroxide cleans the sulphides off of the particles.

You can convince yourself that oil sticks to gold by putting water in a pan, then put a few drops of oil and then sprinkle in some clean gold fines. Please do report back to us!

 

[goldenIrishman]

Peroxide and silver reaction is how they made the Bell System Jet packs work. Needless to say that is a violent reaction if there ever was one. Peroxide was pumped into the reaction chamber through a perforated silver disk and the resulting pressure was routed to the jet nozzles to lift the pilot into the air.

One should NEVER play around with even simple chemicals without proper training. You never know what the result can be.

 

[ohiochris]

Ive washed black sand in muratic acid and had good results. But you dont want to leve it in the acid too long and you still have to be careful with the handling and disposal afterwards , its nasty stuff and has to be handled with care in a well ventilated area and probably shouldnt be just poured down the drain afterward. There may be places where you cant buy muratic acid for all I know but its available at many home improvement stores and seems to clean oxides off gold pretty well. Since it is hydroCHLORIC acid there has been mention of it dissolving a certain amount of the superfine gold but I dont know if thats correct or not.

 

[Rawhide]

some good info. looking at flakes in black sand and cant get it out.......have some concrete cleaner in the shed......dont know about heat. dont want to melt the gold too.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Please use caution following some "recipe" what may work on one deposit could have disastrous results on another with a different chemical makeup.

Excellent advise!

Using this particular process with black sands containing arsenic compounds like pyrites will produce deadly poison (arsenic trioxide and/or arsenic pentoxide). What works fine on one ore could destroy your equipment or even kill you with another ore.

Mother nature throws big curve balls to miners with just about every deposit. Ores are complex in all cases. Just one of the jobs of a successful miner is to figure out the best way to get clean metal out of those complex ores. There is no "one size fits all" chemical solution to mining. Most of the byproducts of chemical processing are dangerous and often can sicken and sometimes kill the inexperienced chemist.

Just knowing what chemicals will work with which ores is only the beginning. Once you know the right chemistry for your processing you need to know how much of each chemical is needed. That's why the pH goal of any solution is essential to understanding the reaction. It's called process control and trying out different chemical combinations without matching your base and supplement pH to the process control can leave you with a dangerous mess.

I'm sure the process control for chlsburns mines are well established over time but using the same process on other ore will not produce the same results. Even if the ores were identical without knowing the process control factors you will not get the same results.

Luckily almost everyone on these forums is prospecting for visible placer gold. No chemicals of any kind are needed to process productive placer deposits. If you decide to play around with processing ores chemically you really need to understand the exact composition of the ore and exactly what each chemical will produce when reacting with the ore before you begin.

Heavy Pans

 

[chlsbrns]

some good info. looking at flakes in black sand and cant get it out.......have some concrete cleaner in the shed......dont know about heat. dont want to melt the gold too.

There is no heat. Some people feel a need to scare people and post minimal info instead of all of the facts. For example:

Bell Rocket
A gas cylinder contains nitrogen gas, and two cylinders containing highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide. The nitrogen presses the hydrogen peroxide onto a catalyst, which decomposes the hydrogen peroxide...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Rocket_Belt

The mixture is max 3%. Even if there is silver in your cons the mix is so dilited that there is no reaction. We have used the process 100's of times on multiple cons from multiple locations with ZERO problems. In the video posted above the guy had to heat the peroxide in a microwave to get a minimal reaction from a silver bar.

There are so many threads and posts from people wanting to get fine gold out of their black sands. I've given a tried, tested and effective method to get gold in high concentrations that you can't see let alone pan

Muriatic acid is some nasty stuff. Instant skin burns, one whif of the stuff and you will start coughing like crazy.

 

[Clay Diggins]

some good info. looking at flakes in black sand and cant get it out.......have some concrete cleaner in the shed......dont know about heat. dont want to melt the gold too.

Crush and pan. Safe, clean, works every time and cheap.

Heavy Pans

 

[chlsbrns]

Excellent advise!

Using this particular process with black sands containing arsenic compounds like pyrites will produce deadly poison (arsenic trioxide and/or arsenic pentoxide). What works fine on one ore could destroy your equipment or even kill you with another ore.

This particular process uses 97% or more of water.

arsenic trioxide is released upon heating certain substances such as arsenopyrite, (a common impurity) in gold in air. Only with strong oxidizing agents such as ozone, hydrogen peroxide, and nitric acid does it yield arsenic pentoxide.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_trioxide

As mentioned numerous times a 3% or less peroxide solution is dilute not strong. A minute amount of arsenopyrite in water with some hydrogen peroxide is harmless. You are more likely to be exposed to such things when smelting or melting gold but I have not heard of anyone being harmed by such things while smelting or melting.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Well I don't know about everyone else that is following this thread, but I for one will stick with Clay and his knowledge. In all the time I've known him, he has yet to post anything on the forum that isn't 100% accurate. Chemistry, ores and mining equipment are just part of his real world work. Since he's been at this since Moses was in diapers (sorry for giving away your age Clay. ) and his proven track record, I'll go with the winner.

And BTW Chlsbrns, don't believe everything you read on Wiki. Nitrogen was only used to force the H2O2 out of the tanks to make contact with the silver catalyst disk. How do I know? My grandfather was involved in the project from the start. Wiki is known for its inaccuracy in many MANY cases.

 

[ohiochris]

Muriatic acid is some nasty stuff. Instant skin burns, one whif of the stuff and you will start coughing like crazy.

Yeah its potent stuff but it works and its simple. But overall , as long as the proper precautions are observed and protection worn its not as bad as many other substances people use. Smelting with flux can be productive but you need to have a significant amount of gold present in the sand or its not worth the effort. The way I read the original post in this thread its more about cleaning the oxides off " possible " gold fines masquerading as black sand so that more of the gold can be identified , not so much about processing the gold. Most people arent dealing with a large amount of gold in their black sand , they just want to be able to see the few extra specks that may or may not be there. Smelting black sand is only worth the trouble if there is a significant amount of gold in it.

 

[russau]

and DONT USE chemicals in a enclosed space UNLESS it is properly vented! about 35/40 years ago I used some Muriatic Acid to remove some scale/rust of some metal plate I was going to weld and I did this in my dads garage. It didn't take long for me to jump up and run out of the garage gasping for air! I WONT do that again!!!

 

[chlsbrns]

Yeah its potent stuff but it works and its simple. But overall , as long as the proper precautions are observed and protection worn its not as bad as many other substances people use. Smelting with flux can be productive but you need to have a significant amount of gold present in the sand or its not worth the effort. The way I read the original post in this thread its more about cleaning the oxides off " possible " gold fines masquerading as black sand so that more of the gold can be identified , not so much about processing the gold. Most people arent dealing with a large amount of gold in their black sand , they just want to be able to see the few extra specks that may or may not be there. Smelting black sand is only worth the trouble if there is a significant amount of gold in it.

Muriatic acid contains sulfides and creates sulfides.

 

[chlsbrns]

Well I don't know about everyone else that is following this thread, but I for one will stick with Clay and his knowledge. In all the time I've known him, he has yet to post anything on the forum that isn't 100% accurate. Chemistry, ores and mining equipment are just part of his real world work. Since he's been at this since Moses was in diapers (sorry for giving away your age Clay. ) and his proven track record, I'll go with the winner.

And BTW Chlsbrns, don't believe everything you read on Wiki. Nitrogen was only used to force the H2O2 out of the tanks to make contact with the silver catalyst disk. How do I know? My grandfather was involved in the project from the start. Wiki is known for its inaccuracy in many MANY cases.

The wikipedia anfo that I posted showing that clay was incorrect yet again was from... Handbook of Preparative Inorganic Chemistry, 2nd Ed. Edited by G. Brauer, Academic Press

Where did he get his info from? A citation would help.

 

[goldenIrishman]

The Wiki info I was talking about was the post you put up on the Bell Jet Pack in post #92 of this thread. Please try to keep up.

As far as Clays knowledge and experience goes... It's called real life, hands on experience gained over a lifetime of mining and working to help his fellow miners improve their own knowledge.

As for myself, I've been in this game of gold off and on for over 30 years and worked for a long time as an industrial lab tech that handled 80% H2O2 on a daily basis. I KNOW it's properties and how to handle it safely. I also had to work with compounds that could kill you in a N.Y. heartbeat which is one reason I've become know on the forum as something of a safety Nazi. There are processes that while they don't sound all that bad while reading about them, can kill you quick if you don't know what you're really doing or you take shortcuts on safety precautions. NO GOLD IS WORTH YOUR LIFE! IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT SAFELY, DON'T ATTEMPT IT!!!