Claim staking question

[Bonaro]

I have a few technical questions that I am not sure how to deal with.
I will be locating the corners on an association placer claim of 80 acres. It's filed under one claim number and consists of four 20 ac. claims which are are continuous and connected.

Do the corners of each 20 acre claim need to be located and posted (16 posts)?
Can I just locate the outer corners of the entire association (4 posts)?
This is steep ground, if one or more of the corners is located high on an extremely steep slope, is it acceptable to place a post on the nearest accessible spot with instructions to the actual location? (ie: post 3 and the SE corner for claim X is actually located 40 feet east on a heading of 90 degrees)
Does each of the 4 claims need a discovery post?

 

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[goldog]

Just s guess but I don't think one claim can be also four claims. So it would have four corners.

 

[Clay Diggins]

It's a single association claim so you don't need to mark out each 20 acres.

The association owns the single 80 acre claim. The individual association members make their own deals about how many members and who may have rights to what. An association must be composed of enough valid claimants to claim the acreage. In your case of an 80 acre placer claim the association must have a minimum of 4 claimants until the claim is proven.

Unless the association agreement says otherwise any individual association member can sell, trade or lease their interest in the claim as long as the minimum number of valid claimants are in the association at all times.

Generally 4 corners=4 posts, 7 corners = 7 posts etc.

I'm sure you already know this stuff Bonaro but the first time with an association claim can lead to some valid questions. They are different.

Heavy Pans

 

[Hefty1]

Also check to see what the state of Wa, requires.

 

[Clay Diggins]

From the Washington State Legislature:

"Chapter 78.08 RCW
LOCATION OF MINING CLAIMS

RCW 78.08.100
Location of placer claims.

The discoverer of placers or other forms of deposits subject to location and appropriation under mining laws applicable to placers shall locate his or her claim in the following manner:

First. He or she must immediately post in a conspicuous place at the point of discovery thereon, a notice or certificate of location thereof, containing (1) the name of the claim; (2) the name of the locator or locators; (3) the date of discovery and posting of the notice hereinbefore provided for, which shall be considered as the date of the location; (4) a description of the claim by reference to legal subdivisions of sections, if the location is made in conformity with the public surveys, otherwise, a description with reference to some natural object or permanent monuments as will identify the claim; and where such claim is located by legal subdivisions of the public surveys, such location shall, notwithstanding that fact, be marked by the locator upon the ground the same as other locations.

Second. Within thirty days from the date of such discovery, he or she must record such notice or certificate of location in the office of the auditor of the county in which such discovery is made, and so distinctly mark his or her location on the ground that its boundaries may be readily traced.

Third. Within sixty days from the date of discovery, the discoverer shall perform labor upon such location or claim in developing the same to an amount which shall be equivalent in the aggregate to at least ten dollars worth of such labor for each twenty acres, or fractional part thereof, contained in such location or claim: PROVIDED, HOWEVER, That nothing in this subdivision shall be held to apply to lands located under the laws of the United States as placer claims for the purpose of the development of petroleum and natural gas and other natural oil products.

Fourth. Such locator shall, upon the performance of such labor, file with the auditor of the county an affidavit showing such performance and generally the nature and kind of work so done."

Heavy Pans

 

[Bonaro]

It's a single association claim so you don't need to mark out each 20 acres.

The association owns the single 80 acre claim. The individual association members make their own deals about how many members and who may have rights to what. An association must be composed of enough valid claimants to claim the acreage. In your case of an 80 acre placer claim the association must have a minimum of 4 claimants until the claim is proven.

Unless the association agreement says otherwise any individual association member can sell, trade or lease their interest in the claim as long as the minimum number of valid claimants are in the association at all times.

Generally 4 corners=4 posts, 7 corners = 7 posts etc.

I'm sure you already know this stuff Bonaro but the first time with an association claim can lead to some valid questions. They are different.

Heavy Pans

I have had my hands on many claims but this is the first association claim. I have yet to examine the actual paperwork or see the recorded maps but I do know that one of the 4 claims is offset slightly from the others. I think it's in the next section and the plat lines are slewed a bit. In this case I would presume I should plant a post each time there is any corner in the overall claim.

What about locating a post on a inaccessible hillside?

 

[Clay Diggins]

Two offset aliquot quarter quarters will result in eight posts to mark all the corners. Watch out for lots as they are by definition irregular and may require more corners to conform to their shape.

You can use a witness post if you can't put your marker in the exact spot due to terrain, roads or water.

You'll need to put direction and distance to the actual corner on the witness post so others can know where the corner is located. Make sure it's marked as witness post as well.

The rules on the proper form of notice for the witness post can change from state to state so you will want to check that out before you set the corner. Here's the law in California:

"(b) Where, by reason of precipitous ground, it is impractical or
dangerous to place a monument in its true position, a witness
monument may be erected as near thereto as the nature of the ground
will permit and marked so as to identify the true position."

Washington may be different. Click on the first link I gave you to Washington Mining Claims and you will probably find it in there.

When using a witness post you need to describe it clearly on your location notice to meet the "boundaries clearly marked on the ground" part of the Federal law on location.

Heavy Pans

 

[Hoser John]

For the past few years BLM has changed the notary requirements on Association claims a lot, at least in kalif anyhow. Always thought mining law required homogenous application of law but like all else they do otherwise now. Any claim NOT contiguous is verboten as in examples within the claim manual state-end to end,side to side or no good tip to tip if the case be as NO separation allowed. Kalif discovery marker good enough if taken by legal description as stated again in their book. I know what the law says but ........John

 

[SLNugget]

All I can say about the WA Claims Forms everyone uses there is that it is impossible to look at the Notice of Location and see where the actual claim is on the ground. The old form requires a verbal description of the borders of the claim only and there is no map showing the claim location in the Quarter Sections. I was never so frustrated trying to find information for Kittitas county. Nothing is online and only limited Location Notices are on a computer program at the Assessors office. In addition the older stuff is supposedly on Microfishce but neither I nor the clerks could find any of the Location Notices for some of the supposedly active claims in the county records anywhere. I spent at least six hours looking for information and finally just gave it up. I suspect some of the problem was that I was an outsider and thus did not receive their best efforts.

 

[Clay Diggins]

All I can say about the WA Claims Forms everyone uses there is that it is impossible to look at the Notice of Location and see where the actual claim is on the ground. The old form requires a verbal description of the borders of the claim only and there is no map showing the claim location in the Quarter Sections. I was never so frustrated trying to find information for Kittitas county. Nothing is online and only limited Location Notices are on a computer program at the Assessors office. In addition the older stuff is supposedly on Microfishce but neither I nor the clerks could find any of the Location Notices for some of the supposedly active claims in the county records anywhere. I spent at least six hours looking for information and finally just gave it up. I suspect some of the problem was that I was an outsider and thus did not receive their best efforts.

Stan this is a problem wherever you go. The problem is there is no such thing as a "form" for making a claim. Once you understand what a claim is you can see why there couldn't ever be a form. Even so folks line up for whatever "form" they find on the internet or that's offered by the BLM and think if they fill in all the blanks they have a claim.

California claims are a horror show. People have been using copies of a "form" with the word "EXAMPLE" stamped on the top for most of the claims made there. Forget the fact that most don't provide enough of a map to guide anyone to know where the claim is located. The real problem is most people get east/west mixed up in their legal description. Add in the fact that the State PLSS grid doesn't match the Federal PLSS and you have a cluster ****. The "form" being used includes placer, lode, tunnelsite, millsite and power withdrawal nonsense that confuses even the most dedicated formidiot.

Washington State has never had an actual survey done so everyone is winging it to start with. Most locators don't understand how to properly title their Location Notice so they get recorded in with all the real estate stuff causing the confusion you saw there. (it's not just Washington where that happens) In Washington the assessor gets into the act so the recorder doesn't get a clean record anyway. Add in the fact that short of some great nickle deposits Washington State doesn't get a lot of mining attention and you have a rolling disaster.

My suggestion? Donuts

Get some donuts, take them by the recorder's office when you know they are slow. Make friends, ask about family and good picnic areas. Then ask some basic questions about how they do business. Not how they are supposed to do business but how it actually goes down on a busy day. Sympathize a lot. Skip the claims research on donuts day, you want their full attention on donuts and BS.

I know you know how to make friends Stan. Go get er'. The next time you stop by to say hi and casually mention you are looking for something they will think "hey this is the donut guy, screw the rules I'm gonna help him out". Then you are Golden.

You think you got it tough? Try Lincoln County, New Mexico. The whole county has like 200 people, covers a zillion square miles and 5 million mining claims. The County seat is in Carrizozo. This town is so small they don't have a grocery store. The nearest grocery is more than 50 miles away and the nearest edible donuts are more than 80 miles away. The County Recorder has a budget of like $12 a year. They think they came into the modern world when they finally put a single phone line in. Internet is the fancy new stuff they have up in Capitan for scooping up trout when you catch them. Donuts are magic there. I got the Location Notices. I think they erected a statue of me holding the legendary magic donuts.

Heavy Pans

 

[Bonaro]

Stan this is a problem wherever you go. The problem is there is no such thing as a "form" for making a claim. Once you understand what a claim is you can see why there couldn't ever be a form. Even so folks line up for whatever "form" they find on the internet or that's offered by the BLM and think if they fill in all the blanks they have a claim.

California claims are a horror show. People have been using copies of a "form" with the word "EXAMPLE" stamped on the top for most of the claims made there. Forget the fact that most don't provide enough of a map to guide anyone to know where the claim is located. The real problem is most people get east/west mixed up in their legal description. Add in the fact that the State PLSS grid doesn't match the Federal PLSS and you have a cluster ****. The "form" being used includes placer, lode, tunnelsite, millsite and power withdrawal nonsense that confuses even the most dedicated formidiot.

Washington State has never had an actual survey done so everyone is winging it to start with. Most locators don't understand how to properly title their Location Notice so they get recorded in with all the real estate stuff causing the confusion you saw there. (it's not just Washington where that happens) In Washington the assessor gets into the act so the recorder doesn't get a clean record anyway. Add in the fact that short of some great nickle deposits Washington State doesn't get a lot of mining attention and you have a rolling disaster.

My suggestion? Donuts

Get some donuts, take them by the recorder's office when you know they are slow. Make friends, ask about family and good picnic areas. Then ask some basic questions about how they do business. Not how they are supposed to do business but how it actually goes down on a busy day. Sympathize a lot. Skip the claims research on donuts day, you want their full attention on donuts and BS.

I know you know how to make friends Stan. Go get er'. The next time you stop by to say hi and casually mention you are looking for something they will think "hey this is the donut guy, screw the rules I'm gonna help him out". Then you are Golden.

You think you got it tough? Try Lincoln County, New Mexico. The whole county has like 200 people, covers a zillion square miles and 5 million mining claims. The County seat is in Carrizozo. This town is so small they don't have a grocery store. The nearest grocery is more than 50 miles away and the nearest edible donuts are more than 80 miles away. The County Recorder has a budget of like $12 a year. They think they came into the modern world when they finally put a single phone line in. Internet is the fancy new stuff they have up in Capitan for scooping up trout when you catch them. Donuts are magic there. I got the Location Notices. I think they erected a statue of me holding the legendary magic donuts.

Heavy Pans

Hilarious but sadly, oh so true.
I would say that staking a claim in Washington is FORMidable. HAR

 

[goldenIrishman]

Makes me thank the mining gods that we've got a great staff at the County Recorders Office here. Excellent service without having to resort to donuts as a bribe. I have yet to call or stop by for information and not get what I was looking for within minutes. During one call, the young lady I was talking to was kind enough to read off the aliquote description of a claim to me no questions asked and she included the original filing date. This was for some of the claims "owned" by my favorite LLC out of Connecticut that have screwed up their paperwork three ways from Sunday because they don't seem to know what the procedures and requirements are.

 

[SLNugget]

Well Barry if I were operating at 100% I would have done the donut deal as I usually do in a new environment. Unfortunately not 100% and could not tolerate another trip over to Ellensburg while in WA for the short time this past summer. I know there is not a form for Notice of Location but the miners in WA are brainwashed into using some totally useless form recommended by the state and BLM. The County Officials will not take a notice on anything other than that crappy form. So seeing as I may not be able to dig in the future I am just not going to worry about it.