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  1. #16
    us
    Bill

    Jul 2014
    w/c Illinois
    255
    310 times
    Prospecting
    I did not mean to stir the s-pot or under mine any one with what I found or posted or to miss lead any one. "That was not my Intention" I agree with Clay and winners, HJ. TG I don't have to put up with what you guys out in Cali have to. the wackos would have a hard time getting back here where I'm at and I can any one comming for 3/4 mile.

    Bill
    Don't underestimate ME. I know more than I say, Think more then I speck, & Notice more than you Realize
    One day My teacher pointed at me with his ruler and said: At the end of this ruled is a idiot! I got detention after asking which end.

  2. #17
    us
    fowledup

    Jul 2013
    Northern California
    Whites GMT V/SAT
    2,757
    5167 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by winners58 View Post
    they changed it to; the definition of a suction dredge is; the use of a mechanized or motorized system for removing
    or assisting in the removal of, or the processing of, material from the bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake in order to recover minerals.

    they have added the word Definition
    in SB 637 its not a definition, its a meaning that relies on the word suction dredge.
    whats the difference between a definition and a meaning, without context the meaning is subject to interpretation
    such as "the Earth" it can mean "the planet", "the people" or "the ground" (dirt)

    an air compressor, is life support, it does not process material.
    a water pump, in California a claim owner or his agent has riparian rights to pump Water
    the other thing is the 100 yards from the waterway and if its above the high water line its not mining the bed or bank of a river.
    Not saying I disagree or agree with you or the others who have responded, but all I can picture is the incredibly nice and cordial LEO nodding his head and saying "Yes sir that may well be your interpretation, however mine is different, you'll notice as you peruse your citation that it gives you two options. One you can pay the fine, or two you can be at the court house on the day listed and we will both get a chance to plead our interpretations to the judge or magistrate. Now if you'd be so kind as to sign here, I'll let you get on your way. Thanks, be safe, and Have a nice day".
    Doesn't matter, either way it will cost me time and money and set myself up for even more trouble down the road if I lose and I get caught again. I do have to say tho, I have never lost challenging a citation, I have a grand record of something like 3-0. However the only thing I "won" was the satisfaction of proving I was right, woohoo! As I said earlier it still cost me time and money.
    Folks may not remember the words of what you said but they dang sure will remember how you made them feel!

  3. #18
    us
    May 2009
    Sailor Flat, Ca.
    SDC2300, Gold Bug 2 Burlap, fish oil, ACME handbook for TRUE prospectors (unread)
    5,510
    12003 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    In California citations don't compound...so getting caught more than once won't increase your punishment. I'm not worried. They are trying to see what they can make stick.
    Clay Diggins and goldenmojo like this.

  4. #19

    Aug 2015
    561
    1118 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Clay Diggins View Post
    If you treat it as English language and read the entire sentence there is no way it could be read to affect highbanking.

    If you take individual parts of the sentences and recombine them you could read it to mean you can't vacuum your floors in California. Of course that's not the intent or floors and highbankers would be mentioned instead of:





    The entire Section 5653 of the Fish and Game Code relates to permits for suction dredging. The amendments to Section 5653 of the Fish and Game Code relate to permits for suction dredging.

    Nowhere in any of these codes are floor vacuuming or highbanking mentioned. The rule of the law is that laws should be narrowly construed. Otherwise you couldn't vacuum your floor or water your lawn or crops without a dredging permit. Whats next the DFW will try to convince us we can't have a vacuum cleaner within 100 yards of a stream? Fishermen couldn't have motors on their boats and anyone driving their car near a river could be arrested for using a motor near water if they don't have the non existent dredge permit.

    The legislature didn't include highbanking or using stream water or driving cars for uses outside the " bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake". In fact there is no part of the law that addresses activities outside of a " bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake". Assuming this law could affect activities outside of a " bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake" would affect any use of water or motors in the extraction of minerals or anything else. That would not be a fish and water rule it would be a ban on mining and driving cars and running a camp generator and watering crops.

    Find an entire sentence in the law that could be construed to apply to anything but suction dredge permits. Every sentence you highlighted contains the words "suction dredge". The preamble clearly states that the law is being amended to "clarify the laws regulating suction dredge mining and other related forms of small scale motorized gold mining in the state’s streams and waterways." Not on land, not in your car and not on your floor only "in the state’s streams and waterways". Highbanking does not take place "in the state’s streams and waterways".

    Heavy Pans
    We operate IN the creek, using the water from that creek, moving only the gravels in the creek bed, using a generator to power a small electric pump. We don't introduce any material from outside the current water line. The "highbanker" removes the lead and mercury, and a little bit of gold in the process. Is this in violation?
    goldenmojo and mytimetoshine like this.

  5. #20
    us
    FIRE...Financially Independent Retired Early. Poor but free!

    Feb 2013
    Deep in the redwoods of the TRUE Northern CA
    Teknetics Alpha 2000
    2,624
    4092 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by fowledup View Post
    Not saying I disagree or agree with you or the others who have responded, but all I can picture is the incredibly nice and cordial LEO nodding his head and saying "Yes sir that may well be your interpretation, however mine is different, you'll notice as you peruse your citation that it gives you two options. One you can pay the fine, or two you can be at the court house on the day listed and we will both get a chance to plead our interpretations to the judge or magistrate. Now if you'd be so kind as to sign here, I'll let you get on your way. Thanks, be safe, and Have a nice day".
    Doesn't matter, either way it will cost me time and money and set myself up for even more trouble down the road if I lose and I get caught again. I do have to say tho, I have never lost challenging a citation, I have a grand record of something like 3-0. However the only thing I "won" was the satisfaction of proving I was right, woohoo! As I said earlier it still cost me time and money.
    Absolutely spot on fowledup. Speaking as a former LEO and issuing a minimum of 100 citations per week (quota? you betcha)...that is exactly how it goes down. Since I had so many to chose from, I'd only pick the ones I could easily prove and had a 98% conviction rate. And speaking as a defendant...always show up prepared cuz there's a good chance the LEO will fail to appear and you automatically walk. Still have to go thru the process of getting your stuff back, but it's a get out of jail free card.
    We don't fight for gain. We fight for what is rightfully ours.

    Just another supporter of Land Matters http://www.mylandmatters.org/ The one stop place for mining matters on public lands!

    CA prospectors check here http://www.mylandmatters.org/Donate/Gift1.html

    A recent study found that there are just too many studies being done.

  6. #21
    us
    fowledup

    Jul 2013
    Northern California
    Whites GMT V/SAT
    2,757
    5167 times
    Prospecting
    I'm still not quite walking right yet (yes, another surgery), it'll be a couple more months before I can go up to the claim and play. In the meantime would one or two of you nice gentlemen (or ladies as the case may be) mind doing me a solid and test out these legal waters? That way when I can get back to diggin I'll have some case precedence to cite for when I get popped and have to defend myself. Thanks in advance!!!!!!!!
    Folks may not remember the words of what you said but they dang sure will remember how you made them feel!

  7. #22
    us
    FIRE...Financially Independent Retired Early. Poor but free!

    Feb 2013
    Deep in the redwoods of the TRUE Northern CA
    Teknetics Alpha 2000
    2,624
    4092 times
    Prospecting
    IF I run into some good gold this year, I'll be steppin it up for sure and I'll see what I can do.
    fowledup likes this.
    We don't fight for gain. We fight for what is rightfully ours.

    Just another supporter of Land Matters http://www.mylandmatters.org/ The one stop place for mining matters on public lands!

    CA prospectors check here http://www.mylandmatters.org/Donate/Gift1.html

    A recent study found that there are just too many studies being done.

  8. #23
    us
    Jul 2015
    Oroville CA
    Gold Bug 2 (sold it)
    197
    232 times
    Prospecting
    english. the elements of a paragraph make up a whole and all elements pertain to that whole. also in procedment (one thing after another)

    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...201520160SB637
    SB-637. SEC 2 5653(a) and SEC 3 13172.5.(a); states the first thing as "vacuum or suction dredge" //"implying" power jets/infinities(vacuum) and venturies suction heads(suction){powered with an engine/motor gas/elec}.

    nowhere is the terms "high banker" or "power sluice" used. why would the lawmakers put this "or" that if they weren't being specific?

    the statement; "or the processing of" isn't just in the same paragraph it's also in the same sentence. everything must be taken together.

    also the state can not arbitrarily define something. eg. they can't define a cat as a dog. a dredge is a dredge. or one thing as many things(involving pronouns).

    anything that floats on the water falls under boating laws;http://www.dbw.ca.gov/PDF/LawEnforc/2012CBL.pdf

    their effect on the water goes under water laws;CALIFORNIA WATER CODE
    this also includes laws on pumping water.

    whether a vessel must be registered is defined by the state;California Boat Registration Instructions | DMV.org
    if it's small and it's not propelled by the motor it carries than it is the equivalent of a canoe.

    you may dig within the high water line,(the creek or river itself including gravel bars).
    you can not undercut a bank. from above the high water line, 300 ft away is off limits. past that is fair game.

    any water you pump must be returned to the waterway as clean as it was taken.
    you don't have to worry about this if the material came from within the high water line. (obviously if you weren't aloud to you wouldn't be able to dirty the water by panning such material)

    regulations do not define laws, laws define regulations.

    I would also advise people start using the term "power sluice" instead of "high banker". "high banking" is a type of mining implying mining high up a bank. a power sluice it the tool used in the practice and therefore dubbed the "high banker".

    also get a video recorder or 3. and record everything you do and what any agents or LEO does. a lense can be far more powerful than a gun.
    Last edited by ClaimStake; May 01, 2016 at 09:39 PM.

  9. #24
    us
    Jul 2015
    Oroville CA
    Gold Bug 2 (sold it)
    197
    232 times
    Prospecting
    also on wrongful arrest. you can sue and be compensated for all the fees.

    https://enlightenme.com/wrongful-arrest/
    G-bone likes this.

  10. #25

    May 2012
    899
    511 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by fowledup View Post
    Not saying I disagree or agree with you or the others who have responded, but all I can picture is the incredibly nice and cordial LEO nodding his head and saying "Yes sir that may well be your interpretation, however mine is different, you'll notice as you peruse your citation that it gives you two options. One you can pay the fine, or two you can be at the court house on the day listed and we will both get a chance to plead our interpretations to the judge or magistrate. Now if you'd be so kind as to sign here, I'll let you get on your way. Thanks, be safe, and Have a nice day".
    Doesn't matter, either way it will cost me time and money and set myself up for even more trouble down the road if I lose and I get caught again. I do have to say tho, I have never lost challenging a citation, I have a grand record of something like 3-0. However the only thing I "won" was the satisfaction of proving I was right, woohoo! As I said earlier it still cost me time and money.
    Yep. Until Americans stop allowing the cowards their illegal actions, this rubbish will continue.

  11. #26
    us
    Aug 2011
    247
    184 times
    Why is everyone moaning and crying? Someone helped elect "conservatives", well, that's what they are doing, "conserving". I call them "Californicators". Move to a state that doesn't regulate your life to such a high degree. In the golden state, if you smile too long while doing something, they tax it, require a permit or regulate the hell out of it. Did I mention... welcome to the "land of the free".

  12. #27
    us
    May 2009
    Sailor Flat, Ca.
    SDC2300, Gold Bug 2 Burlap, fish oil, ACME handbook for TRUE prospectors (unread)
    5,510
    12003 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    The state can support millions of "illegals"....yet its actuaul citizens have a laundry list of 'illegal" things e can get in trouble for

    Hi banking is not illegal....running a motor near a stream,lake ,or river is technically only doable if you posess a permit that doesnt exist.....the eir's and stream classifacation is up in the aitr AGAIN.....thet don't even have the ability to enforce as thre are millions of others running motors on or near these rivers lakes and streams. The difference is that they are in boats jet skis and vehicles. The difference is they are only going after prospectors because of our type of activity.

    You can't make rules against one type of resource user that you don't enforce across the board. It's gonna end up challenged hopefully on that logical basis.

    I live here for a reason I moved right on top of gold for a reason. Turning tail has never been the right solution.
    Last edited by Goldwasher; May 10, 2016 at 06:04 PM.

  13. #28
    us
    Apr 2013
    San Anselmo, Ca
    BH, GB2
    869
    700 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwasher View Post
    The state can support millions of "illegals"....yet its actaul citizens have a laundry list of 'illegal" things e can get in trouble for

    Hi banking is not illegal....running a motor near a stream,lake ,or river is technically only doable if you posess a permit that doesnt exist.....the eir's and stream classifacation is up in the aitr AGAIN.....thet don't even have the ability to enforce as thre are millions of others running motors on or near these rivers lakes and streams. The difference is that they are in boats jet skis and vehicles. The difference is they are only going after prospectors because of our type of activity.

    you can't make rules against one type of resource user that you don't enforce across the board. It's gonna end up challenged hopefully on that logical basis.

    I live here for a reason I moved right on top of gold for a reason. Turning tail has never been the right solution.
    I agree, I just got fined $2508 for no healthcare and I work full time haha. If I renounced my citizenship I would probably have better healthcare, food and housing opportunities here in Ca more to the point of the other poster we complain because we should and have an obligation to create awareness about the insanity and profits being made in these misguided crackdowns being done under the guise of environmentalism!
    Goldwasher and emptyhole like this.
    "The desire of gold is not for gold. It is for the means of freedom. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

  14. #29
    Make America Great Again

    Apr 2013
    Oregon
    1,641
    3775 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    legal in some places in Caliphony except where it's not
    .
    home made Rocking Gold Grabber
    Last edited by winners58; May 11, 2016 at 12:47 AM.
    Obsessive likes this.
    " A pessimist is an optimist with experience "

  15. #30
    us
    Aug 2010
    Maine USA
    358
    333 times
    Let''s face it "they" don't want "us" on the stream beds and "they" are going to get any laws passed that make it difficult for "us."
    ratled likes this.

 

 
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