Prospecting and Land Rights Thoughts

[Nitric]

Not really looking to turn this into a war. I'm stuck, after reading a few laws. And I don't want to keep rambling off topic in someone else's thread....

Whether law or not, what are your thoughts about land use, whether public or private? In terms of prospecting. We see it in the metal detecting,indian artifact forums too...

Me personally? I could care less if someone detects,rock hounds,(There is no gold there) panning, fishing and camping from the banks, etc...On my land. Have not had any major problems, Other than....A guy decided to clear and plant what he wanted for deer, which I wasn't impressed with that(that kind of crossed a line, if he would have asked? I wouldn't have cared, type of thing) He spent a lot of his own money putting up gates to keep other hunters and people out!!! , nail stuff to trees for stands, some trash,Rumors of weed that was removed....I have since removed gates. So, I would not give him written permission, that way I still have some leverage with any future problems. Like... I don't care, but if you mess up I can use trespass laws. Once written permission is given? If I understand it right? injury or damage is a little harder to fight. I may be wrong on that....So, welcome! But no written permission! Even though I don't care I think each individual should have the right to say what happens on their piece of "paradise". If they don't want anyone on it, any way, any how, I get and respect that too!

Now, I get claims! That is claimed for the mineral, and no, If owned one I wouldn't want someone else digging! That's the point of the claim!

Reading some state laws, I see that there is "no panning", or "permit required", etc...It's hard to even sort out, On some state or fed land?!!! But you can go up the water way, and do it on private? with out any permission? That does not make sense to me!! Not against it, just against the laws. It should be easier to access and use public land! That's what it's for!!!!!!!

This is crazy when you have to know a book of laws or have an attorney just to look at some dirt!! It's dirt!!! It's been moved around and disturbed for millions of years!

Ok, what are your thoughts, complaints, confusions, etc...On land use? Or even your personal opinions of "trespassers", What bothers you the most, or major problems that have happened.....Would you really care if you ran into someone panning, detecting, on land that you didn't own for that purpose? Or on the flip side what are your thoughts on using other land that you don't own?

Just for fun and conversation, not looking to make it a war or promote anything illegal, make anyone or group look bad, etc... Just opinions, and thoughts on "what it should be" or whatever....And I do respect "private Property" even beyond the law. Even though when younger I was all over everyone else's,hunting mushrooms,berries, etc... But where I grew up a lot of land owners did not care when kids 20's or less were "exploring" . As an adult? They might and it looks at a little differently when a grown man is wandering around looking at rocks on your land, especially with all the drug problems lately!

 

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[russau]

I personally feel that we should know the laws that will affect us while out OR while on our own property and then use them to your benefit! Use them to fit "our needs" ! Otherwise , potentially , we will be in constant turmoil !

 

[Nitric]

I personally feel that we should know the laws that will affect us while out OR while on our own property and then use them to your benefit! Use them to fit "our needs" ! Otherwise , potentially , we will be in constant turmoil !

To me it's almost like there are too many laws, or written so twisty turny,, you can't even read the crap!!!! It just needs to be simpler! And more access to Gov.and state Lands, Animals do more damage than a detector or pan and shovel... A skunk will make just as many "holes" in one night!! Not to mention other natural things that move tons and tons of material...

 

[goldenIrishman]

Well Nitric you've got a completely different situation in Georgia than we have out here. You've got very little "Public" lands when compared to us in the west. When I was living in Georgia (just south of Macon), even finding a good place to fish on the rivers and lakes was a pain unless you happened to have a boat. All the land on the rivers and lakes in my area was privately owned with the exception of the public parks.

Here in the west we have millions upon millions of acres of public land to do our thing(s) on. Even so, the government is making accessing it harder to do all the time. Between new national monuments (to nothing), areas being closed for various reasons (studies, "recovery" etc) and different agencies competing for control over what in truth belongs to the people of our country, we are loosing access to a lot of that land. Many agencies claim a lack of funds for maintenance as the reason for letting established roads go without repairs, but heaven help anyone that tries to fix them on their own and gets caught. Simply put, they don't want us on "THEIR" land.

One of my pet peeves is that according to the Rangers at Lake Meade National Recreation Area (LMNRA) no form of prospecting/mining is allowed within the confines of LMNRA. No detecting, no drywashing, no nothing. Now this is SUPPOSED to be a PUBLIC recreation area, but I guess the powers that be don't consider prospecting in any form to be recreational. (funny how they do when they're trying for another land grab though) Hikers, mountain bikers, campers, fishermen, off road enthusiasts etc can all do their thing out there but we miners can't even have an operational detector in our possession within the confines of the LMNRA. Get caught with one and it's confiscated and you're ticketed on the spot. I can understand having the area closed when it comes to filing a claim, but to basically outlaw mining in any form is just wrong.

It is up to us to know the laws and what our rights under those laws are. We also need to stand up for those rights and make sure that they're not taken from us. Should any individual or government agency try to take those rights from us, they need to be removed from their jobs and taken to court. If that person is employed by a government agency, when they go to court for violating a persons rights, they go as an individual and are not allowed to have the government give them any help with their defense. As Clay is so fond of saying... "Know the laws and prosper". My thinking is that a well educated and informed miner can be a government employees' worst nightmare!

 

[Nitric]

Well Nitric you've got a completely different situation in Georgia than we have out here. You've got very little "Public" lands when compared to us in the west. When I was living in Georgia (just south of Macon), even finding a good place to fish on the rivers and lakes was a pain unless you happened to have a boat. All the land on the rivers and lakes in my area was privately owned with the exception of the public parks.

Here in the west we have millions upon millions of acres of public land to do our thing(s) on. Even so, the government is making accessing it harder to do all the time. Between new national monuments (to nothing), areas being closed for various reasons (studies, "recovery" etc) and different agencies competing for control over what in truth belongs to the people of our country, we are loosing access to a lot of that land. Many agencies claim a lack of funds for maintenance as the reason for letting established roads go without repairs, but heaven help anyone that tries to fix them on their own and gets caught. Simply put, they don't want us on "THEIR" land.

One of my pet peeves is that according to the Rangers at Lake Meade National Recreation Area (LMNRA) no form of prospecting/mining is allowed within the confines of LMNRA. No detecting, no drywashing, no nothing. Now this is SUPPOSED to be a PUBLIC recreation area, but I guess the powers that be don't consider prospecting in any form to be recreational. (funny how they do when they're trying for another land grab though) Hikers, mountain bikers, campers, fishermen, off road enthusiasts etc can all do their thing out there but we miners can't even have an operational detector in our possession within the confines of the LMNRA. Get caught with one and it's confiscated and you're ticketed on the spot. I can understand having the area closed when it comes to filing a claim, but to basically outlaw mining in any form is just wrong.

It is up to us to know the laws and what our rights under those laws are. We also need to stand up for those rights and make sure that they're not taken from us. Should any individual or government agency try to take those rights from us, they need to be removed from their jobs and taken to court. If that person is employed by a government agency, when they go to court for violating a persons rights, they go as an individual and are not allowed to have the government give them any help with their defense. As Clay is so fond of saying... "Know the laws and prosper". My thinking is that a well educated and informed miner can be a government employees' worst nightmare!

I agree!! And some of these places are being turned into..... Walking tracks, tourist type places...Don't wander from trail, don't climb on rock, don't breath to much air, don't ,don't don't....I forget what state, Might have been VA,MD,NC, can't remember exactly. I was there for work and thought I just walk a local area on my time off, look for whatever...I pulled in and there was a fee to park!! This was state or fed land. Great big parking area. Paved, lined,buildings etc....Is that all really needed? What happened to just pull into a dirt parking lot with a few old telephone polls or logs for stops and a block outhouse?

Anyhow, I had no cash on me, so I had to ask to turn the truck around. But I thought, Man, I just wanted to walk "our" land! I can park in the grass or dirt? And I promise not to pee in the toilet!

And your right, I'm basing everything I know on the East Coast. The only thing I know about public land out west is what I read in the forums here....

also in my teens....We were camping at a local state park, Boats, sail boards(?), etc...I decide to jump in the water, with some shampoo and wash my hair!!It was so hot that weekend, and just jumped in to cool off too... BIG mistake! That's not allowed! I found out real quick!Luckily no ticket, just got yelled at by the Ranger...Shampoo will hurt the water...

 

[goldenIrishman]

LOL... That's when you show the ranger your USFS approved bio-degradable shampoo! Of course that's not going to make any difference if it's a drinking water supply. People can't swim in it but look at all the stuff that fish do in there!

 

[Nitric]

LOL... That's when you show the ranger your USFS approved bio-degradable shampoo! Of course that's not going to make any difference if it's a drinking water supply. People can't swim in it but look at all the stuff that fish do in there!

Or runoff from local yards,parking lots,houses,roads, Tons of goose droppings on the shores, that all end up in the same place. I won't go into too much detail, but that was a nasty park at one time, It was a place you went there in groups.It was really trashy, we would go on clean up days sometimes,(needles and other things you didn't want to touch) And lets just say.......You didn't have to worry about your girlfriend getting hit on hanging out around that park. They have really cleaned it up in recent years. But I believe they have also eliminated the camping areas.

 

[Hoser John]

Eco insanity prevails. Laws to protect our rights(if you can even understand the political gobble-d gook) are stomped into the dirt daily. Legal process and procedures are violated by the 1,000s daily as all user groups,and indian tribes, have banded together and off to court you go and go and go and go and go and go. SB cases over $3million and rising as dredge ban now kills 9 seasons. Do not expect ANY sanity anymore. Just listen to recorded tape from Supreme Court as miners invade Yosemite with dynamite to blow it up and rape all the gold and desecration is immenent.....After 60+ years of mining this eco-insanity has blossomed by courts giving cash rewards to kill our industry through regulation manipulation. You meet 1 set of criteria and her's another,meet that bs and yep another takes it's place,meet that and again and again and again with NO SCIENCE OR CEQA adhered to.....sic sic world-John

 

[russau]

To me it's almost like there are too many laws, or written so twisty turny,, you can't even read the crap!!!! It just needs to be simpler! And more access to Gov.and state Lands, Animals do more damage than a detector or pan and shovel... A skunk will make just as many "holes" in one night!! Not to mention other natural things that move tons and tons of material...

HEY ! Them socalled "representatives" of ours and the lawyers gotta justify their jobs somehow!

 

[Nitric]

It's not just with mining either, It's with EVERYTHING it seems. Look back and see what it took just to buy Precious Metals or scrap. Even that has gotten insane in some areas. This license, that fee,fill out this stack of papers for Patriot ACT stuff, where were your address's and Bank accounts for the past ten years...Then? That's not getting into state License or permit. Pay something like $500(don't remember exact amount), And if you don't already have a place of business? You can't even get it, Well, why would anyone set up a place of business, not knowing if you can get License or not?There was a guy in my area at the time that set up shop,couldn't open,but had to have it to apply for the license, then after months, couldn't get it for whatever reason. Then it's local time!! County or city, ON AND ON...
My experience was with Ohio, And it wasn't too horribly bad for since I took over an existing location, so I was kind of "grand fathered" in, in a way, but here In Ga, I'm being told "GOOD LUCK". I haven't checked into it too far yet....

Of course there are legal ways around some of this stuff for the creative person, but .......

if you screw up? You could potentially lose everything!

So, It's not just with mining! It's everywhere and everything!

What happened to an idea and physical labor? Now you need an attorney just to be a painter!!!NOT JOKING! Lead Paint,hazardous removal, etc.........

I'm way off topic! Same ideas.......Problems(?) in this stuff too....

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Well Nitric you've got a completely different situation in Georgia than we have out here. You've got very little "Public" lands when compared to us in the west. When I was living in Georgia (just south of Macon), even finding a good place to fish on the rivers and lakes was a pain unless you happened to have a boat. All the land on the rivers and lakes in my area was privately owned with the exception of the public parks.

Here in the west we have millions upon millions of acres of public land to do our thing(s) on. Even so, the government is making accessing it harder to do all the time. Between new national monuments (to nothing), areas being closed for various reasons (studies, "recovery" etc) and different agencies competing for control over what in truth belongs to the people of our country, we are loosing access to a lot of that land. Many agencies claim a lack of funds for maintenance as the reason for letting established roads go without repairs, but heaven help anyone that tries to fix them on their own and gets caught. Simply put, they don't want us on "THEIR" land.

One of my pet peeves is that according to the Rangers at Lake Meade National Recreation Area (LMNRA) no form of prospecting/mining is allowed within the confines of LMNRA. No detecting, no drywashing, no nothing. Now this is SUPPOSED to be a PUBLIC recreation area, but I guess the powers that be don't consider prospecting in any form to be recreational. (funny how they do when they're trying for another land grab though) Hikers, mountain bikers, campers, fishermen, off road enthusiasts etc can all do their thing out there but we miners can't even have an operational detector in our possession within the confines of the LMNRA. Get caught with one and it's confiscated and you're ticketed on the spot. I can understand having the area closed when it comes to filing a claim, but to basically outlaw mining in any form is just wrong.

It is up to us to know the laws and what our rights under those laws are. We also need to stand up for those rights and make sure that they're not taken from us. Should any individual or government agency try to take those rights from us, they need to be removed from their jobs and taken to court. If that person is employed by a government agency, when they go to court for violating a persons rights, they go as an individual and are not allowed to have the government give them any help with their defense. As Clay is so fond of saying... "Know the laws and prosper". My thinking is that a well educated and informed miner can be a government employees' worst nightmare!

Per the no mining in the state park. You have to remember that just because something is public land, doesn't mean it has always been public land.

Especially around state parks and special areas, the gov. has entered into land swaps and acquired lands within and surround the areas. It is pretty common for a land owner to retain mineral rights when they sell.
We have lots of previous rail road owned lands that are now BLM where this is the case.

 

[Nitric]

Per the no mining in the state park. You have to remember that just because something is public land, doesn't mean it has always been public land.

Especially around state parks and special areas, the gov. has entered into land swaps and acquired lands within and surround the areas. It is pretty common for a land owner to retain mineral rights when they sell.
We have lots of previous rail road owned lands that are now BLM where this is the case.

Make sense. But even a lot of private land, doesn't have it's mineral rights. And owners of the land give permission. That's interesting to think about, I wonder how all that works. And where do the mineral rights stop and begin, A pan, dredge,metal detector, certain amount of material moved, or "DON'T touch" any of it?

 

[goldenIrishman]

Per the no mining in the state park. You have to remember that just because something is public land, doesn't mean it has always been public land.

Especially around state parks and special areas, the gov. has entered into land swaps and acquired lands within and surround the areas. It is pretty common for a land owner to retain mineral rights when they sell.
We have lots of previous rail road owned lands that are now BLM where this is the case.

Oh I know all about the land swaps. The Greaterville area south of Tucson is a prime example of one of them. Rancher swapped several sections of land to the Forest Circus for some other parcels on the other side of the highway.

The point I was trying to make is that the LMNRA is supposed to be a RECREATION area and yet some of the people are being excluded from using it for their form of recreation. It's administered by the National Parks Service, but it's not a national park in the classic sense of the word. It's a NATIONAL RECREATION AREA! If you look it up on a map, you'll see that 99% of it is desert wilderness with no improvements. It extends for MILES away from the lake and river and pretty much stretches from Bullhead City, up river to the south end of the Grand Canyon. How much area does the average person require for recreation? Are people going to fish, run their boats and jet skis 10 miles into the desert? I don't think so. This entire section is HIGHLY mineralized and holds a lot of gold and the government KNOWS this. As I stated before, I can understand it not being open to claiming, but to even close it off to "Hands and Pans" prospecting is just wrong. By doing so, the government has excluded a portion of the public from using the area for their form of recreation.

 

[Nitric]

Oh I know all about the land swaps. The Greaterville area south of Tucson is a prime example of one of them. Rancher swapped several sections of land to the Forest Circus for some other parcels on the other side of the highway.

The point I was trying to make is that the LMNRA is supposed to be a RECREATION area and yet some of the people are being excluded from using it for their form of recreation. It's administered by the National Parks Service, but it's not a park in the classic sense of the word. If you look it up on a map, you'll see that 99% of it is desert wilderness with no improvements. It extends for MILES away from the lake and river and pretty much stretches from Bullhead City, up river to the south end of the Grand Canyon. How much area does the average person require for recreation? Are people going to fish, run their boats and jet skis 10 miles into the desert? I don't think so. This entire section is HIGHLY mineralized and holds a lot of gold and the government KNOWS this. As I stated before, I can understand it not being open to claiming, but to even close it off to "Hands and Pans" prospecting is just wrong. By doing so, the government has excluded a portion of the public from using the area for their form of recreation.

On a much smaller scale, Alabama did or does the same thing. There are sections of forest land that are bordered by private property, You can't touch it, other than to hunt maybe, They have no access! They just started selling pieces of it off, some are as small as 5 acres. I understand the idea, they were trading and buying, trying to get it grouped together, But just seems like a lot of wasted tax payers money, in some of these cases......We have 80 acres that kind of borders one side of ours, No camping,no motorized vehicles, horse only, Well!!! I'd like to see someone take a horse through there! It's hard enough to walk! If someone gets hurt? They can't even bring in anything motorized to get them out!! Horse or carry only!! It's crazy!!! That piece has no public access either without walking through someones land. What's the point?

Added...
Not that it matters, but I just remembered what they told us about having to remove injured people from any of the Forest lands. They have to get permission from some other agency first,Before using anything motorized, which could take hours or from what I understand days to get an "OK". So, it's just quicker and easier for them to get a group of people, go in, and carry the injured person out....They can be in and out, back for coffee, and maybe a day of sleep, before the permission goes through!

But these forest lands are nothing like what you guys have out west in size....

 

[Seden]

Years ago this guy who went by the name of Redpaw Dave who used to live in the LA area. He got fed up with all the bs regs so that he would mine in the dead of night with his buddies. Their group was called "The Midnight Miners Assoc.". He's since moved to Oregon and disappeared off the internet. Looks like it's time for other miners across the US to follow the Midnight Miners lead if this is how the feds or state want to play their game. Just bring an inexpensive thermal camera (USB into a smartphone-see ebay and they work great!). What you would want to do is have someone drop the group off and come back at a agreed to time. That would be the safest and smartest way as the Sheriff or whomever does patrol the streets. You have to be bold if you want to get gold and not pay a fine or end up in the grey hotel. Heavy pans as Cliff sez!

An unjust law is not a law at all-Saint Augustine (Bishop of Hippo,Africa) 426 A.D.

 

[Nitric]

Years ago this guy who went by the name of Redpaw Dave who used to live in the LA area. He got fed up with all the bs regs so that he would mine in the dead of night with his buddies. Their group was called "The Midnight Miners Assoc.". He's since moved to Oregon and disappeared off the internet. Looks like it's time for other miners across the US to follow the Midnight Miners lead if this is how the feds or state want to play their game. Just bring an inexpensive thermal camera (USB into a smartphone-see ebay and they work great!). What you would want to do is have someone drop the group off and come back at a agreed to time. That would be the safest and smartest way as the Sheriff or whomever does patrol the streets. You have to be bold if you want to get gold and not pay a fine or end up in the grey hotel. Heavy pans as Cliff sez!

An unjust law is not a law at all-Saint Augustine (Bishop of Hippo,Africa) 426 A.D.

I don't have the guts to try it, but I do get your point.........I'd be too afraid...looking all around, all paranoid.... I could just see it now.......Batteries go dead in light,get lost, lose one boot, fall down some cliff or rocks, end up as bear poop, or a moose's "friend" etc.............

Ya, I know my luck way too well, and I think I used it all up early in life!!

 

[Goldwasher]

So unnecessary

 

[Nitric]

So unnecessary

Ya...It wasn't intended that way....I guess it was just a conversation thought, and I see how it might have been a bad idea after thinking about it......I was working flipping back and forth, online, just conversation thing.....

If what I think you mean...is correct?

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

And where do the mineral rights stop and begin, A pan, dredge,metal detector, certain amount of material moved, or "DON'T touch" any of it?

Some people don't realize that "land rights" are a multi layered affair. There are minerals, oil/gas, water, surface, ect. ect.
When someone owns the mineral estate. That person actually owns the minerals as private property. This is the case with mining claims on public lands as well.


You are stealing private property the minute you take the minerals, regardless of the method you use or how much you enjoy it.
It's just like hunting...you have to get permission. In this case from the owner of the mineral estate and the owner of the surface rights.

 

[Nitric]

Some people don't realize that "land rights" are a multi layered affair. There are minerals, oil/gas, water, surface, ect. ect.
When someone owns the mineral estate. That person actually owns the minerals as private property. This is the case with mining claims on public lands as well.


You are stealing private property the minute you take the minerals, regardless of the method you use or how much you enjoy it.
It's just like hunting...you have to get permission. In this case from the owner of the mineral estate and the owner of the surface rights.

I never thought about Federal or state land being that way....But yes, it makes sense.

so if someone were to sneak into the farmers field and start digging or panning, that person would/could be up against problems from two different people...Not likely but.....I get what your saying...

.Even if the land owner gives you permission , and just say for example, he has given written permission to dig, explore, whatever, Are both then held responsible? The land owner and the person mining? Or does it also matter if land owner was getting a cut of of the profits from the recovered minerals? Or does it all fall on the miner.....Just speaking in general.....I guess I could look this stuff up, and it doesn't really matter for what I'm doing...But just thoughts..

Now some of the Claim rules make a little sense....If dormant, or not paid, they go back up for grabs...So you can't just tie up mineral rights for ever, not doing a thing with them...I have mixed feelings on that, but makes sense...