Endangered Speices Act Reform

[Mad Machinist]

https://newhouse.house.gov/media-ce...ntroduces-endangered-species-act-reform-bills

You all asked for it. There are hearings being conducted on it right now. Like a spoiled child who has abused their privileges, those privileges are about to be taken away by the adults in the room.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Upgraded Night Vision Monocular Digital Infrared Monocular Telescope for 100% Darkness with 8X Zoom - Grab it through Amazon!

[Mad Machinist]

Not so much about access, but there are many reasons for the decline of some salmon runs including drought, loss of habitat caused by gravel roads and blocked culverts, excessive silting of spawning habitats, dams and poor fish ladders , predators such as sea lions, cormorants, and you may say "overfishing" which is a very BROAD term, ( I cringe when I hear that as in "overfishing" by what entity?), the states reduction of hatchbox programs using natural returning broodstock, and the list goes on. Apologies if I side tracked this thread as I can get emotional about this issue.

It's all good. I just have a very low tolerance for crap, especially when stuff is done and blamed on everyone else.

You may remember the Wallow Fire we had here in Arizona. 76 out of 145 Spotted Owl nesting sites destroyed and considering the tie frame of the fire, there is a serious possibility that there were either owlets or eggs in the nests. Habitat for the Chiricahua Leopard Frog was destroyed or heavily damaged along with every other "endangered species" that depends on the area for survival.

The main problem we have here is the overgrown forests. Historical conditions suggest that this are should have 50-100 trees per acre. There are now 700-1000 per acre. Mostly smaller trees 12" in diameter and under. With this many trees per acre, competition for resources is very high, leading to drought stress, allowing the bark beetle easy access as the sap cannot push the out, and eventually death of the tree. All of this leads to the creation of ladder fuels which allow a fire to move from a low intensity ground burn to a stand replacing crown fire. This is a simplified version of what happened here.

The small trees need removed to prevent another fire. Small trees are uneconomical for a large company to remove when business casts are taken into effect. Georgia Pacific was going to build an OSB plant here to handle the small wood and all they wanted was a guaranteed 20 year supply of wood to get a return on their investment. The USFS wouldn't even hear of it.

Funny this is that this could be done cheaply and efficiently by small companies with smaller equipment leaving less impact on the forest. Here ya go. Purpose built equipment. WILL NOT take a tree over 12" in diameter and is being used in conjunction with a small forwarder.



Got a steep slope?



And I forgot to add that when the BAER team came into the area, they seeded the burned areas with some type of oat grass, which in non-native to the area and yet the hunters, fisherman, OHV users, the ranchers, and everybody else will get blamed for the spread of non-native species as it fits the agenda of reduced access.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[mendoAu]

....I'll lighten things up a bit...where do I apply for endangered species funding? I'm just a poor dredger feeling my demise. HA!
P.S.: I just recently contacted BLM about cutting/removing about a dozen dead Doug Fir trees about to hinder access to the mining sites here on our claims (trying my best to conform to the policy put forth by BLM) and will fill you guys in to the conversation next week. I've been trying to train the dog to chase any owls over to the neighbors property, but she hasn't caught on yet.....

 

[boogeyman]

I don't know if this fits or if I'm thinking right here. All I really see from all this endangered this endangered that is a tool for control. To close an area, road or logging or whatever is the main goal I see. If they throw up signs and barriers it's ugly and pisses people off. But if they claim whether correct or not some cute little animal is gonna disappear forever, they've put frosting on the ugly cake. Desert tortoises was a tool. They wanted to stop the Baja races & a little known route for smugglers. Barbed wire & barricades = ugly Poor tortoises getting squashed = ugly with a lot of frosting on top! I may be wrong here but I think even BLM has said no squashed tortoises have been found to date. Ok what's left? Control access & travel. Now, I heard they've declared one type of bumble bee in danger on the endangered list. Call me weird, but the first thing that comes to mind is, I have bumble bees around my property all the time. I wonder if some authority sees one on my property how long will it be till I see signs on my patio saying the back of my property is closed to any use or worse?

The only way anything good will come of this is to put ALL the rules & regs under one agency and ALL stats etc have to be vetted completely before any closures occur. Ok, now that everyone thinks I'm 1/2 bubble off, thanks for listening to my theories on all this!!

 

[Bejay]

The ESA allowed for critters and fauna to become the tool to "control" and "close". Now we have a new era of protectionism: "Climate Control". Our climate is now "endangered". Again, as before with the ESA; protecting that which man can adversely effect, is used as a tool for "control". No doubt one can see the evolution of such thinking! "Climate Change".

Critters and fauna have undergone adverse changes since life began on this planet......even before man ever existed. The climate has undergone changes ever since this planet began. Of course now with "agendas" of control everything will be attributable to man. The key word is EVERYTHING. A new era of protectionism has overtaken the policy making.

Bejay

 

[Mad Machinist]

I don't know if this fits or if I'm thinking right here. All I really see from all this endangered this endangered that is a tool for control. To close an area, road or logging or whatever is the main goal I see. If they throw up signs and barriers it's ugly and pisses people off. But if they claim whether correct or not some cute little animal is gonna disappear forever, they've put frosting on the ugly cake. Desert tortoises was a tool. They wanted to stop the Baja races & a little known route for smugglers. Barbed wire & barricades = ugly Poor tortoises getting squashed = ugly with a lot of frosting on top! I may be wrong here but I think even BLM has said no squashed tortoises have been found to date. Ok what's left? Control access & travel. Now, I heard they've declared one type of bumble bee in danger on the endangered list. Call me weird, but the first thing that comes to mind is, I have bumble bees around my property all the time. I wonder if some authority sees one on my property how long will it be till I see signs on my patio saying the back of my property is closed to any use or worse?

The only way anything good will come of this is to put ALL the rules & regs under one agency and ALL stats etc have to be vetted completely before any closures occur. Ok, now that everyone thinks I'm 1/2 bubble off, thanks for listening to my theories on all this!!

You've pretty much got it. The two biggest enemies the desert tortoise has are ravens and coyotes. But agencies like the BLM, who actively employ people like Francisco Mendoza in Tucson who donates to the Center for Biological Diversity, just throw a five gallon bucket of crap against the wall, see what sticks, and then they run with it.

If you start actually tracing back through the research, you find very little of it is based on actual field research. It is just a rehash of what others rehashed from field research that is 20, 30, sometimes 40+ years old. All too often the claims made DO NOT reflect current conditions on the ground. If the research matched current conditions on the ground, this whole fight would be over and we win.

 

[minerrick]

Somewhat off topic but has to do with the salmon. Are any of you guys on the CA coast seeing any evidence of radiation poisoning to any of the species out there? Anything weird? I've heard reports, but no first hand knowledge. A friend of my is a naturapath and he doesn't eat anything from the Pacific anymore because of Fukashima. Any reports?

 

[minerrick]

On our WMA website we have some really good articles about the whole Sue & Settle and other enviromental group "operations". It is very annoying and we have done a ton of research on it. We are talking to our reps in DC about it and we will see if something happens. I don't want to get going on it or I will end up writing a novel, and neither of us want that.

 

[Capt Nemo]

I don't think there would be much problem. Most of the most dangerous isotopes that the fish could have picked up are half-lived away. When a rod assembly comes out of a reactor, it's really hot. It then is moved to a tank to cool for about a month or two to let the short lived isotope byproducts burn off (stops making the water glow blue). After that, the rod can be shipped for reprocessing.

Really there's more gold in the seawater than there is fallout products from Fukishima. And by now it's so spread out it's no more than background.

Now any salmon runs in Japanese rivers might not want to be eaten.

 

[minerrick]

Thanks for that Capt! Was curious.

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

I read a recent report saying Oregon and above had some show up but below acceptable levels .
No concern in California .

 

[Bejay]

States have their own listing of Endangered Species and the Feds have their own. But I'll offer an example of "REDIOCULOUS". The State of Oregon has quite a number of fauna and species listed as endangered. One of the States' listings is the Whitetail Deer. There are two gene pool populations of while tail deer in Oregon. One is up in the Columbia Gorge and the other is down in the Roseburg area. One would think that deer hunting would be closed in those two areas in order to protect the ENDAGERED WHITE TAILED DEER. NOPE hunting is still allowed. When I talked to the Oregon Dept of Fish and Game about the issue I was told they prefer people not shoot a white tail deer. But of course the ODFW sells hunting and fishing licenses and would not want to deter their revenue source via that means.

Yet the Oregon Dept of Fish and Game (ODFW) constantly closes areas to public use to protect the other species they don't derive revenue from. There you go....an example of agency power. Agencies are dependent on justifying their existence and it is all about the $$$$$.

Bejay

 

[rodoconnor]

Whitetailed deer as endangered? I have to laugh. In specific, tiny little areas they may not be in huge numbers , but Nationwide there are MILLIONS of the Whitetailed species. Many places ,they are a damned nuiscance.

 

[Bejay]

While I used an example based on a specific State the States can pressure the Fed agencies to acknowledge their application. Most important is the fact that courts via Judges make determinations based on arguments presenting sub species issues.
The ESA brings forth "sub species" and thus isolated gene pools are recognized as "critters of their own unique species". Thus there lies the crux of the problem with the ESA.

Bejay

 

[russau]

I'm a sub-specie so DONT MESS WITH ME ! Lets see how this one goes this Summer !!

 

[Golden_Crab]

This is a subject I know quite a bit about. My wife is a career biologist with the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, which is the agency in charge of administering and enforcing the ESA. I see nothing in the proposal that will change an awful lot, except for making species data more easily disseminated.

Everyone loves to demonize Federal employees, especially those who have any potential impact on land use. But many don't realize the tip-toe dance the USF&W Service makes in an effort to please a whole host of special interests. They just don't go out willy-nilly and list species on a whim. As a matter of fact, if you want to discuss wasting tax dollars, there are some enviro groups who actively and constantly sue the USF&W to list species they feel need to be added to threatened or endangered lists, but don't meet the criteria of the ESA. A considerable amount of money and resources are spent answering these lawsuits.

I'm just like the rest of you. I'm a miner, and am outraged over unnecessary issues and oversteps that affect our ability to recover gold. But let's keep our focus, and not lose sight of the true villains in this battle. The ESA is important, and while it is unfortunate that some lands have been removed from use because of listed species, I, for one, am glad that there is at least some process to protect what's left of our natural resources. The ESA is only the legal description, enforced by the USF&W. We should be angry at the farmers and ranchers in California for polluting rivers and streams, and the stocking of non-native trout, forcing the protection status for the red-legged frog...not the USF&W Service for responding to the crisis. In each case of land restrictions as a result of the ESA, it is land abuse creating the problem by short-sighted or greedy individuals -- not the Feds.

If left to State or local interests, you would see a lot more species going extinct. I don't think anyone wants that. Many endangered or threatened species are like the proverbial canary in a coal mine -- they are our early warning system for problems that can eventually affect the health of other animals, even human health.

The USF&W Service does a lot of good, that doesn't get much media coverage. They fund many, many environmental projects which restore lands and wetlands that have been destroyed by poor agriculture or industrial projects. There are many successes of species that were on the brink of extinction, which have been restored to healthy levels. It serves everyone to have such an agency on a centralized, Federal level. Local administrators of a similar agency would not be able to do what's required effectively, and would cave to local interests instead of the greater good.

Nope nope nope. Get rid of the whole agency, the forests will be fine, everything in existence today will die out at some point including us. You aren't saving a damn thing but federal benefits and a cushy salary for minimal work. Local Law > State Law > Fed (the way it's supposed to be) and then maybe we can use that extra $$$ to invest in our municipal water filteration so we can all stop getting cancer or maybe we can lobby against putting chemicals in our water that give your grandkids terminal diseases. No... that's silly, we need to save the majestic whatsitsname-frog!!

 

[bcfromfl]

Nope nope nope. Get rid of the whole agency, the forests will be fine, everything in existence today will die out at some point including us. You aren't saving a damn thing but federal benefits and a cushy salary for minimal work. Local Law > State Law > Fed (the way it's supposed to be) and then maybe we can use that extra $$$ to invest in our municipal water filteration so we can all stop getting cancer or maybe we can lobby against putting chemicals in our water that give your grandkids terminal diseases. No... that's silly, we need to save the majestic whatsitsname-frog!!

Since I'm being quoted, I will respond.

What you all don't realize, apparently, is every time an issue has been brought up in this thread, it's a failure/mismanagement on a local level, forcing the hand of the ESA. (I should also point out that the case of the whitetailed deer cited above was DELISTED by the USF&W Service in July of 2003.) Most local and State governments don't have the funds, manpower, or access to unbiased biological opinion that a well-funded centralized agency does. If left to a local level, many species would go extinct before anything would be done.

There is a lot of criticism, I know, about the protections afforded sub-species. I get it, and there are cases when the listing is not warranted. But what also must be pointed out is the effort that went into the legal language of the act such that in these types of cases, species in-need wouldn't fall through the cracks. You can see the legal discussion of sub-species under the ESA here: https://www.fws.gov/endangered/laws-policies/policy-distinct-vertebrate.html

One thing that is not usually discussed, is the unique difference between the lands found in the West, versus the lands in the rest of the U.S. The higher rainfall, and greater latitude for recovery of the lands of the East and South, for example, means that endangered species are somewhat (but not always) easier to manage. Much of the lands of the West, unfortunately, where problems occur, are also lands that are gold-bearing. Geologically-speaking, this means that there is an inherent risk involved in any land use activity. The conditions are much more stark, and small changes can have huge impacts upon wildlife. The ESA can't be blamed for this...it is simply a fact of life.

I live on the Gulf Coast of Florida. After the BP oil spill, millions upon millions of dollars were allocated to counties along the coast here as "recovery money" for losses that were supposedly incurred as a result. There were perhaps half a dozen globs of oil that found their way to local beaches, so, no significant or permanent damage. You'd laugh at the ridiculous ways that money was spent, that had nothing to do with recovery. You think local governments can be trusted to spend Federal dollars on their own? It won't happen. There is simply too much self-interest at stake, and opportunity for corruption and back-room deals.

As further evidence of the failure of local governments, read about the Hardesty gravel mine case involving the County of Sacramento, and how a competing mine forced corruption from county officials.

Even on a State level, things can happen in back rooms that aren't necessarily illegal, but do not serve the general public. The best example of this is the ridiculous Inyo County Water Bank, where a few wealthy landowners cornered millions upon millions of gallons of water and kept it from the citizens of California, further escalating drought conditions for the State. All this to line the pockets of a few wealthy, industrialized farms growing pistachios, pomegranates, and almonds -- crops that shouldn't be grown in a desert. As a further outrage, none of the wealth of this farming finds its way into local infrastructure, or pay for workers. It is siphoned from the California economy, and gets shifted into offshore bank accounts.

As miners, we pay the price for these local failures. We get blamed for the decline of salmon, when that is the result of other factors we have nothing to do with. We pay for the loss of land we can mine on, because industrialized farming and the introduction of exotic fish species has caused the decline of the red-legged frog. We get angry at the ESA, because that represents the giant hammer that actually is forced to come in and do something, yet are not angry at all the steps and failures that led up to the requirements of enforcement. We are put on the offensive, fighting the restrictions and public opinion, when the opposition has gamed the system and lined their pockets with grant moneys to fund studies that are slanted to add more weight to flawed arguments. A, B, C, and D never get exposed, because we're answering Z in the courts.

This is what my point is. Don't blame the Feds, or the ESA, for what they are mandated to do. These mandates were part of a public process, representing what the majority of Americans want for their country. Focus your efforts, and anger, against the special interests which are trying to game the system, and cause pollution, loss of habitat, etc., that impacts local flora and fauna. These things are going on right now, long before any protective actions are on the horizon. We are outdoorsmen, too, and don't want to spend our days mining for gold in a polluted moonscape, devoid of life. If you display an understanding of all this with your efforts to organize opposition, people will recognize this, and take us much more seriously.

 

[T.C.]

It is a spirited debate, don't take it personally.
I witnessed the "spotted owl" bs. (logging family) The barred owl whupped their ass... but they moved on....relocated.
It is the Liberals that don't even go outside and/or experience the outdoors... that invent this crap from behind their computers.
No one wants entire species eliminated, but there are real world solutions. What I have noticed is certain groups (libs) get completely out of control (unhinged) and without proper scientific facts (the truth) try to stop something just because they don't like it! (BS)
These common core educated, liberal arts majors, ignore all and any scientists, biologists that they did not fund! (TOTAL BS)
Look at both sides!

BC I agree with a % of your opinion/facts/posts. It would be great if it all worked. Fish and dredgers... I worked with a miner dredging, Smith river California, no longer allowed... I was underwater most of the time, being young... strong....Fish would swarm me ! I was stirring up food.....Habitat was better the following year.
I can't speak for the others but when the spotted owl takes jobs, and the "bull trout" which I don't believe even belongs in those waters
takes jobs, causes excessive regulation, excessively in error (libitards) people are going to get riled.

Well said, Vik!! I put in 23 years in the timber industry.....lost my job because of the spotted owl farce!! I still see timbers sales held up because of tree huggers filing law suits. Timber companys can't waste their time or money fighting the lawsuits, so they just give up. I feel your pain. There were a lot of family wage jobs that were lost.

 

[Bejay]

While the ESA is in fact a federal law, the States use it independently of the Feds. The states also utilize aspects of the ESA where they deem it applicable for their own agenda/purpose. The States also utilize and coerce with other agencies such as the DEQ to utilize language in the ESA where they deem it applicable for their agendas.
What we often see is the fact that a State can list a species (as States can have their own ES List) and not find the same species listed via the ESA (Feds).

Then of course we get to the geographic ecosystems issue. For some species like the spotted owl one can see that the issue for listing is OLD GROWTH tree habitat. That very same issue came down to designating the 2nd growth with a diameter of 12 inch as old growth. Then we saw the argument for designating different classifications for even those trees: High elevation vs low elevation ecosystems.

If one follows the court cases regarding such issues one can see that the end result is based on ARGUEMENTS presented by both sides. The arguments are before judge(s) that base their ruling on the effectiveness of those arguments before the court. What we see is that 90% of the cases brought forth before the 9th Circuit Court are presented to judges who make determinations on the possibility that an adverse impact may occur. MAY is a very broad word...but that "MAY" is the tail wagging the dog.

Contested Laws are ruled on by judges. The ESA does have specific language, so does our Constitution; but we see that judges reach different interpretations on the language;..... and INTENT plays a key role. Proving intent is precarious at best.

There is no question Congress had specific intent when it conceived the ESA. There is no question the Congress had specific intent when it conceived the mining laws and even provided "SAVINGS CLAUSES" to protect the miner from unwarranted Government intrusions. But as noted in this thread the very contentious nature of such Acts (laws) has extreme adverse impacts on humans.

One can argue for or against the ESA. I highly doubt the ESA will be obliterated, but the welfare and livelihood of people requires more than a "May Cause an Adverse Impact" ruling by a judge. I believe many would want to see the judge(s) make rulings on "WILL CAUSE A DETREMENTAL ADVERSE IMPACT".

Bejay

 

[bcfromfl]

What you write is yet more evidence that local (State) governments are being abused, and why a centralized agency is the best way to administer biological opinion and regulation. It's not always perfect, as has been noted through the years, but certainly better than the alternative.

Eco groups know that they can influence local jurisdictions, and overpower them with their funding and lawyers. The main reason they do this is to increase contributions, by causing outrage amongst the uninformed. This is the level of manipulation that needs to be exposed, instead of criticizing the ESA which represents the last step in a long chain of events. This is the "goal" for eco groups, because they can offer this as proof that they are "working" for the contribution dollars, when they force land closure, etc. Defending ourselves shouldn't be OUR only goal, however. We need to take aim at events before they reach this stage.

It's unfortunate that the 9th Circuit has become the go-to court in a lot of these cases -- for years it has been known to be politically motivated to the left.

 

[mendoAu]

"Much of the lands of the West, unfortunately, where problems occur, are also lands that are gold-bearing. Geologically-speaking, this means that there is an inherent risk involved in any land use activity. The conditions are much more stark, and small changes can have huge impacts upon wildlife. "

I'm mulling this statement over a bit. Did I not conclude that fauna and animals have priority over gold? Would most women pick a gold bracelet or a red-legged frog to ware on her wrist? Yet that seems to be a sobbering fact of life...saying one thing but doing the other. There just seems (with my eyes only) to be more squirrels on this out of the way 40 acre mining site than in downtown Portland or Miami, yet those same Portlanders seem to think this area needs "Protected". I kinda get it but would rather see people patrol their own backyards. So where does the EPA stand in my book...Get a backbone and resolve, with all your power, to go to the court hearings and slam your fist on the table and stop all the false nonsense submitted to the judges. An organization that preaches truth for the needs of endangered species should also right the wrongs of mis-information.
Oh...and by the way I said that I'd report back on the blm/tree cutting outcome. All went extremely well and will now proceed to fall/cut/haul/split and store a absolute sh it pile of Doug fir for many fires to come. All is good in the kingdom.