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Thread: The legend of little gold fish idol treasure Chan Chan Peru

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  1. #1
    fm
    Raggedy old Crow

    Jan 2005
    In a tax haven some where
    ONES THAT GO BEEP! :-)
    1,755
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    The legend of little gold fish idol treasure Chan Chan Peru

    Hello it seems I am under duress as I have been threatened with walking the plank and eating Don Jose's marry ki ki.

    Another yarn before I haul away Joe.. An excellent working sea shanty hauling up the sails. Even the girls get into singing it as it is an excellent working song for team work.



    You know there is a slight injustice that comes with people perception of native cultures in Peru. And that is the obsession with Inca treasure. in fact the Incas were the johnny come lately onto the scene however fascinating they are. There are other cultures in Peru just as fascinating. There are several cultures in Peru that was just as rich in treasure than the Incas if not more.

    The following story some of you will perhaps see similar story versions elsewhere?

    The following Newspaper story The Kalgoolie miner dated 9th October 1948.

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    UNITED NATIONS' BACK HUNT

    Buried treasure hunting, whether on pirate islands such as the notorious Cocos, in the North Pacific, or in the Peruvian Andes, casts its spell over adventurers of all races (writes Harold T. Wilkins in 'Tit Bits'). Even august institutions are at tacked by this gold bug. There is in preparation an expedition to discover the location of the fabulous cache of gold and jewels and gemmed idols known to the

    folk of Trujillo, in northern Peru, as the Big Fish (El Peje Grande). It is backed by Unesco, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation, to the tune of 12,500, and five South American republics have voted an equal amount towards the cost. Treasure of far greater value than the outlay of 25.000 in terms of gold and cultural and achaeological values may be dis covered Legend of Eldorado This expedition plans to leave Para, near the mouth of the Amazon, in April next, with a team of leading British, American and French scientists, historians and archaeologists. It is sponsored by Senor B. Carrion, Ecuadorian Ambassador to Brazil. Carrion is a member of a distinguished family in Ecuador. One of his ancestors was a Spanish conquistador who came from Spain to Nueva Granada (modern Colombia) and to Incaic, Peru, in the train of the adventurers of the early 16th century who left their bones to bleach on the trail to El Eldorado. El Eldorado, or the Gilded Man, was the old cacique of the Chibchas, an ancient race in the Andes of Colombia who, each year, anointed his body with turpentine, into which gold dust and pellets of gold were sprinkled. He then plunged into the deep waters of Lake Guaravita, while Indians on the banks threw gold and jewels to propitiate their gods.

    Behind this quest for the 'Big Gold Fish' is a mystery of Trujillo, an ancient walled city founded by Pizarro. Two miles from Trujillo are the ancient ruins of Gran Chimu, capital of an ancient race called the Chinius who, in 1378, were conquered by Inca Yupanqui, from Cuzco, after a long and sanguinary war. The cacique of the Chimus. Mansiche, was living in poverty, working on a small farm when, in 1575, a young Spaniard who plied the trade of pedlar lodged at his cottage. He was Garcia Gutierrez de Toledo and .he sold the best of his wares to the old man. A close friendship grew up between them and one day the pedlar said to the old cacique: 'I am tired of this life of poverty, and at the end of this long trail, carrying these paltry wares over the Andes and across the plains from Lima and old Cuzco, I can see only more poverty. I wish I were dead..' 'My friend,' said one of -the cacique's sons, 'I counsel you to be patient and work at your trade. It keeps you and it serves us. Gold brings sorrow, envy, and the tax collector in its train. My ancestors were rich, beyond the dreams of avarice. Yet were they happier than we who work a small farm which provides for. our needs?'

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    In the Secret Vault The Spaniard frowned and snapped his fingers impatiently. 'How can any man be happy, lacking gold and the means for a pleasant life?' he asked. One night he was talking with another of the cacique's sons in the doorway of their hut after the old man had gone to bed. He was in a bad temper. At last, the son, who bore the name of Don Antonio, said:— 'Well friend Gutierrez, as thou dost insist that thy happiness depends on the possession of gold, I am going to make thee richer than any other man in Peru. But, swear to me, first, in the name of the Madonna, that -thou wilt not become proud and arrogant in thy change oi fortune, but will practise charity and aid the poor.' The pedlar swore an oath to observe the conditions and on the next 'night the cacique's son guided him to the ruins of the old city of Gran Chimu. He went to part of the ancient wall en graved with curious symbols, moved a great stone covering a hidden cavity, and led him into a labyrinth of passages that gave on to an ancient and secret burial vault. Then, holding up his torch, he beckoned the astonished pedlar to look around.

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    In the vault he saw heaped up an amazing treasure of massive gold vessels. In the middle of the vault was a curious scaffolding on top of which was the image of a fish whose scaly body was of pure gold, and its eyes two magnificent emeralds. 'This is the vault of the Little Fish (El Peje Chico),' said Don Antonio. 'If thou wilt keep thy oath to me, I will do more than this: 1 will reveal to thee the cache of the Big Fish, beside which this of the Little Fish is as 'out a drop of water in a pitcher.' This story is not a fable. In the municipal archives of Trujillo there is still to be seen a register dated 1577-1578. It shows that Don Garcia Gutierrez de Toledo paid to the treasury of Trujillo, for the chest of the King of Spain, bars of solid gold, effigies of animals and birds of gold, bells of gold, Pateras (gold and gem med dishes), and heads of corn of pure gold, worth 85,577 gold cas tellanos From this it may be calculated that the value of the treasure of the Little Fish was more than five millions of gold dollars, all of which the pedlar took from the vault in seven visits.

    This sudden access of riches did the pedlar no good, in Lima, at that date, was the Viceroy, Don Francisco. Marquis of Toledo, a cold avaricious, cruel-hearted old Spaniard. He consented that the pedlar should be called his cousin, for, as the pedlar said, both bore the name of Toledo. It cost the Viceroy nothing to humour his vanity. And what with banqueting a crowd of Spanish nobles, and repeated bribes to the Viceroy, in a very few years the ex-pedlar had become almost penniless. He now bethought himself of the friend in Trujillo, who had become cacique in his dead father's place. He went to Trujillo and, on his knees, with tears in his eyes, I need
    the cache of the Big Fish. 'I am ruined,' he said. 'That does not surprise me,' re plied the cacique. 'You heeded not my warning and you broke your oath as regards the poor. The secret of the Big Fish goes with me to my grave.' Greatest Hoard Still There So the ex-pedlar went back to Lima and was shunned by his one-time friends. He was now an old man and he died in a cell of a Franciscan convent in Lima Many attempts, have since been made to locate the' great treasure cache of the Big Fish, all unsuccessful, but to-day, in the ancient ruins of the Gran Chimu one can see the vault from which the pedlar took the treasure. of the Little Fish.

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    At one time, in the 18th century, the Spanish authorities thought they were on the trail of the Big Fish. A cacique, Don Antonio Chayque, offered to reveal the cache if the chief alcalde in Lima would give him money for the Indians By a town tax the Spaniards raised 42,187 dollars, but little reached the Indians, though some treasure was found. The vast Big Fish treasure, however, remains undiscovered; will this new 25,000 expedition unearth it at long last?


    Is there still treasure still there today lost somewhere in the ruins of Chan Chan.

    Perhaps perhaps not?


    crow
    Last edited by Crow; Feb 01, 2014 at 08:03 AM.

  2. #2

    Mar 2013
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    Would you believe fellas that only yesterday, I was going through my notes on this story?

    After the magnificent Chimus were just about defeated by the southern Incas, many of their brightest and best artisans were taken to Cuzco by the Incas to teach their skills and work precious metals for them. Also, the Incas actually raided and despoiled the tombs of the lords and nobles to take huge amounts of brilliantly worked gold and silver. Unlike the Incas who worshipped the Sun, the coastal desert region dwellers that were the Chimus, worshipped the moon. Some of the most significant finds have been in and around their valleys - Lambayeque, Sican, Sipan, Moche, were all related. The amount that was dug, raided, robbed and found in the soft sands and mounds of that region, throughout the centuries, truly defies belief. Up until the 1960s - 70s, bulldozers were even used to make finds 'easier', and who can guess at what was lost/stolen??

    In between bouts of partaking in the good life, Crow is still a proper adventurer who can sniff a treasure a thousand miles away.

    I for one believe a grand treasure was still there after the Inca conquered the Chimu. Some say that it was actually located further north in the Sechura desert where there was an ancient road built by the earlier Mochica that first the Chimu used and then the Incas. There was a cemetery where old kings were buried with great pomp and ceremony with blocks of stone brought from the Andes with great difficulty and manual labour. Close to a hundred thousand pits and holes have been dug to try and find the 'Biggie'. Who can truly say what has been found over the intervening centuries.

    One thing is for sure, under the shifting sands of that vast treasure house, aka northern Peru, there is a lot more than has already been uncovered. Only thing is that there are serious drug-smuggling gangs up to the border with Ecuador, and of course the authorities take a dim view of 'treasure hunters' (unless they have a stake in the venture), not to mention logistical issues.

    Fascinating stuff.


    IPUK

  3. #3
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    14,603
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    Morning Britlander, Tea ? I agree on all counts, Crow has mastered the art of accomplishing his goal without working for it, I often wonder how many indiscreet pats he has done on this voyage alone. Sigh,. imagine lying on yer tummy on the foredeck of the Drumbeat getting your back and neck worked on by scantily clad Polynesian lovelies ?

    Due to Crow my interest has been reawakened in South America.

    Using a bulldozer to look for loose treasures in sand is a losing proposition. I have seen first hand how it just mixes up the treasures with sand and reburies them. The operator cannot see them.

    I fully agree the final count on Peruvian treasure hasn't been started yet. Most future discoveries will be the result of intensive investigative work, perseverance, and 90 % luck.

    I love these stories, keep em up while i continue to work on the Quipus. As for Crow, while his feathers may be a bit abused and dragging, he is still in fighting trim.

    Don Jose de la Mancha
    Last edited by Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp; Feb 02, 2014 at 04:27 PM.
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  4. #4

    Mar 2013
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    Hi Don Tayopa

    "Tea" - is there any other way to start the day?

    As for Crow - Where did it all go so wrong for him?

    The bulldozer was used by an old so-called aristocratic land-holding family in northern Peru, whose grandfather started discover golden and silver artefacts in huacas situated on their property during the early part of the last century. The family attempted to restore their former glories by hiring village loads of local labourers to dig into the huge mud brick structures and a steady stream of treasures were uncovered in the graves situated therein. The bulldozer was brought in to hasten the process. The family had their landholdings taken away in the early 1970s and given to the local campesinos, who promptly took over the 'trade'. This family that had their land taken away, they were involved in a controversy in the States, when they/their representatives tried to sell a brilliantly worked Sican warrior's golden back-flap armour to undercover FBI agents in Miami for $1m.

    Sometimes, I can just go onto Google Earth and simply look upon those deserts and mountains either side of the Andes, and wonder what amazing discoveries lie within. Even in this day and age of technology, globalisation and the rush to make one's fortune, it truly still staggers me that some parts of that wonderful continent (South America), are relatively as untouched as when they were first brought to the world's notice by those conquistadors. Sitting here in cold and wet Blighty, it is very hard to imagine (well, in my case only on the odd occasion), that there are such untouched, wild, unforgiving and truly spectacular places left to uncover.

    Sooner or later, we will have to come up with an adventure that will ruffle (excuse the pun please) the feathers of the Crowmeister himself.

    IPUK
    Last edited by Interested Party in UK; Feb 02, 2014 at 08:36 AM.

  5. #5

    Mar 2013
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    Forgot to mention in the above message, that it is estimated that 90% of the world's museums who have precious metal artefacts associated with Peru, will have got their 'supplies' from this notorious family that controlled this site, and in one particular haul in the 1960s, they got 'lucky' with a 80-90 kilo cache that was buried with a VIP.

    Going back to the site of the Chimus that Crow has detailed in the thread starter post - ChanChan - that site was about 1/3 bigger than what remains now. Where oh where might the secret entry point be to the Peje Grande....................




    IPUK
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  6. #6
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
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    G'd morning Britlander, my friend, . you asked -->"Tea" - is there any other way to start the day?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    YES ! By having it handed to you with a 'loving look' while you watch the humming birds play in the fountain spray in the patio amid the soft warm odor of ripening Oranges, Mastiff4me knows. Beats stomping your feet to keep them warm.

    Even better is on my hidden tropical island paradise with the delicate odor of night blooming Jasmine drifting out of the Jungle behind you, sigh, but el Crow knows what I am talking about, He has inherited all of the sneaky characteristics of his feathered namesake..

    As for that fascinating post , love it. The only thing better would be to review the life of the Gentleman that the amour was designed for.

    How are your psychic abilities?

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    Last edited by Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp; Feb 02, 2014 at 04:38 PM.
    Mastiff4me likes this.
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  7. #7

    Mar 2013
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    Hi Don Tayopa

    "Ripening Oranges" - I will be getting excited only if you say that they have a part to play in the EL Naranjal story

    The armour mentioned was from the burial mound of the "Great Lord of Sipan" from around 300CE. All the archaeologists who have seen, helped excavate and viewed the tomb treasures, have stated that it is a true rival to King Tut's and the most magnificent discovery in the western hemisphere EVER!
    Sadly the tomb was only discovered after huaceros had despoiled other just as brilliant as the Sipan one, and dispersed the treasure found. The lord of Sipan was a truly mighty king who had every order obeyed and every whim taken care of, as his tomb and the contents displayed the work, resources and efforts needed for such opulence.

    Don't know about psychic abilities....got a crystal ball if that is of any use??

    Lately, the dealers and smugglers have decided to give northern Peru a 'rest', and are now focusing on textiles and printed works from southern Peruvian civilizations such as the Inca and Nazca. Something that was circa 3,000 years in the making - the Southern American native civilizations - have been raided and looted without mercy for the last 500 years, but would you believe me if I said that the last 30 years have been the absolute worst for tomb raiding??

    But that vast expanse aka Peru, holds many, many secrets that would take archaeologists 1,000 years to excavate, detail, log and explain, and the most important discoveries have not yet been made I would say. Those shifting sands of the deserts, those mysterious mountains, all-encompassing rainforests, hold secrets that will yet astound and stagger. But this is not to say I believe in all that Gran Paititi and 'Lost City of the Incas' malarkey. Small towns, villages and spectacular tombs yet undiscovered and buried, yes, massive cities, caverns full of gold and lost races and the like, no.

    IPUK
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  8. #8
    fm
    Raggedy old Crow

    Jan 2005
    In a tax haven some where
    ONES THAT GO BEEP! :-)
    1,755
    3575 times
    Growing old disgrace fully as possible.
    Hello IPIU

    That would not surprise me the increase of tomb raiding? To find the answer you have to find out who the buyers are? To find buyers you need to who is behind driving up legislation to protect cultural patrimony? The answer it is same people who buy famous works of art by Famous Artists? And none my friend of them will ever see the inside of court. they are a protected species.

    From memory there were 14 Tombs the lord of Sipan was just one.

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    One thing to remember the gold content is about 30% and 70% Copper. They are actually worth more as artifacts than to melt down. ironically the decision makers made an attempt to control the trade in artifacts by making sure all dealers sell artifacts with a certificate of Provence. Unfortunately this now has negative impact ass dirt poor native tomb robbers are melting artifacts for the gold content in fact destroying what the legislation was organically designed to protect. The very people behind behind the the push of legislation controlling the flow of artifacts has made a tidy profit as their collection with Provence have increased in value by tenfold. By the Mid 1990 the South American antiquities was on verge of collapse because there was too many artifacts on the market driving down prices. An artifact is only valuable if it is rare.

    Sipan was one source but there was others. There was network of dealers excepting imports from a man based in Lima who was acting on behalf of a group that had powerful connections with the president of Peru at the time, Alberto Fujimori. The actually tomb robbers were 2 brothers from the Baracardos they were two poor pawns in the game. These sellers in the United States got busted and many people got stung from Hollywood celebrates to very prominent politicians and directors of large corporations even some museums got their fingers burnt.

    I should post a thread on Precolumbian metallurgy and how it evolved in the Americas if any of you are interested?

    Crow

  9. #9

    Mar 2013
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    Hi Crow

    Yes, the smuggling ring you mention included diplomats, 'art dealers and collectors', and was only uncovered (as is usually the case), when certain elements within felt they had been short-changed and not given their perceived cut of the cake.

    You are correct about the tumbaga alloy in a lot of the artefacts, but the Sipan tombs had huge amounts of pure golden items and thankfully many were rescued.

    A question for you:

    What are the 5 greatest undiscovered treasures still out there - Please let's leave the usual suspects alone - that have a great element of evidence, even though they might not be that well known?


    IPUK

  10. #10
    fm
    Raggedy old Crow

    Jan 2005
    In a tax haven some where
    ONES THAT GO BEEP! :-)
    1,755
    3575 times
    Growing old disgrace fully as possible.
    Hello IPUK

    Do You mean in 5 greatest treasures in South America? Or the world?

    Crow

  11. #11

    Mar 2013
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    If you have the time to, why not both?

    The more the merrier, and I'm sure we'll be able to exchange views, thoughts, research and fascinating facts that will enlarge our appetite even further?

    Or, am I simply being 'greedy'?

    IPUK

  12. #12
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
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    G'd morning my friend: of course you will have your hot, morning tea?--> Crow his usual OIRISH coffee.

    I agree with you, but also remember that most of the Archeological excavations are due to the findings of the "Raiders of lost tombs hungry Indians. Unfortunately financing is the key,

    For the Indian, this is supplied with the finding of some thing negotiable. the results in left overs form an Archaeologist's dream IF he can find a backer for his work. Backers are very few .

    While I personally deplore it, it is a necessary step in Archaeological exploration. Actually to a point I presume that I can be included in that definition since I have found the legendary Tayopa, and despite my wishes to leave the area intact, I may be forced to do the same thing as the Tomb Raiders do. Develop a market for my finding. Wives need to eat or they become uncooperative. no dinner.

    I personally have had the unique opportunity of having seen and explored an 'unknown no of Centuries old sites' before any others, or excavations, etc. have occurred, it is a unique feeling to realize this as you look at it, that it represents the part of the lives of long ago deceased people.

    Once, up in La Sierra Encantado I entered a lonely valley where a group had lived an unknown no of years ago. It was just as the last survivor had left it. there were Indian artifacts scattered here and there, at night I could see them dancing in my flickering camp fire light,, inviting me to join them, but alas they were gone by daylight..

    This site is still untouched from what I can learn, and if it is in my power, it will remain so for the future. I buried many of the better examples of pottery etc., and left notes where they were for a future Archaeologist to study, otherwise it is exactly as I found it..

    I admire England's laws in respect to artifacts, but this valley will remain my secret until after I have passed on .
    .
    I would love to start on South America, specially with my friend CROW, AFTER I finish here in ole Mexico, but I am getting a bit mature for that

    So find me some Quipus to decipher my friend.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    releventchair likes this.
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  13. #13

    Mar 2013
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    Hello Don Tayopa

    How gentlemanly to unfailingly offer one's companions refreshments; nothing better to start the day's proceedings.

    I agree with you, in that it is always the easiest thing to blame those at the bottom rung of the ladder economically for despoiling tombs, so the issue is a complex and not easily solvable one. That is why I would never pass any judgment on those whose circumstances and environment I never had any experience on.

    Oh what it would mean, to go and explore lonely canyons, plateaus, hills and deserts where the sign of 'modernism' hasn't left an indelible mark. I would say that old Mexico is just as much - if not more - in possession of places such as the ones in Peru we have been discussing.

    You want quipus Don?
    Forget the Incan ones, check out the one found at the Caral site a mere 13 years ago. More than 2 millennia older than the 'baby' Incan quipus, and the Caral one could rival the earliest cuneiform that existed in Mesopotamia. That unfortunately has the side-affect of dismissing all those fanciful theories of some, that suggest no civilization existed in South America until it was somehow 'transported' from the old world via Atlantis/ocean-going Phoenecians/Egyptians/Aliens (take your pick). The discovery as recent as it was, and not too far from Lima, to me suggests that there is so much more that will come to light in the coming years. Amazing and interesting stuff.

    IPUK

  14. #14

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,706
    5163 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Interested Party in UK View Post
    Hello Don Tayopa

    How gentlemanly to unfailingly offer one's companions refreshments; nothing better to start the day's proceedings.

    I agree with you, in that it is always the easiest thing to blame those at the bottom rung of the ladder economically for despoiling tombs, so the issue is a complex and not easily solvable one. That is why I would never pass any judgment on those whose circumstances and environment I never had any experience on.

    Oh what it would mean, to go and explore lonely canyons, plateaus, hills and deserts where the sign of 'modernism' hasn't left an indelible mark. I would say that old Mexico is just as much - if not more - in possession of places such as the ones in Peru we have been discussing.

    You want quipus Don?
    Forget the Incan ones, check out the one found at the Caral site a mere 13 years ago. More than 2 millennia older than the 'baby' Incan quipus, and the Caral one could rival the earliest cuneiform that existed in Mesopotamia. That unfortunately has the side-affect of dismissing all those fanciful theories of some, that suggest no civilization existed in South America until it was somehow 'transported' from the old world via Atlantis/ocean-going Phoenecians/Egyptians/Aliens (take your pick). The discovery as recent as it was, and not too far from Lima, to me suggests that there is so much more that will come to light in the coming years. Amazing and interesting stuff.

    IPUK
    IPUK,

    I looked into Caral a number of years ago. As I recall, the pyramids there were (possibly) as old or older than the pyramids in Egypt. I speculated at that time, that the South American civilization migrated across the Atlantic, rather than the other way around.

    I agree that the subject is interesting. My first post on the subject was here:

    Emergence of Pyramids in the Americas

    Take care,

    Joe
    Last edited by cactusjumper; Feb 04, 2014 at 12:15 AM.

  15. #15
    fm
    Raggedy old Crow

    Jan 2005
    In a tax haven some where
    ONES THAT GO BEEP! :-)
    1,755
    3575 times
    Growing old disgrace fully as possible.
    Hello IPUK

    5 greatest treasure to be found. The problem for me a being part of the the unholy trio has spent years and years researching various stories. Some in more details others just on professional curiosity. As you could imagine many people would have various suggestions to which are the greatest treasures still waiting to be discovered? Well there is many more treasure legends than this bunch of raggedy beach bum tramps will ever do in a lifetime and all treasures are great to me. All have their own set of complexities. Some will turn out to be legends and other will have more truth to discover. Others will be too politically complex to ever achieve and on rare occasions you might find one just about doable.

    But it is always we are in a race with father time. And time my friend fears no one except the Pyramids and perhaps our very own Don Jose of course.

    And once again the icy fingers of time is haunting me as this month progresses I am becoming more and more time poor. As destiny had dictated to us the trio that we are a end game in another developing story once more.

    If I was to chose 5 not so well known treasure legends off the Top of my head that have potential for continued further research.

    The missing parts of Polish National treasure stored in Canada WW2 1940

    Lord Kitchener's lost coins in the Nile in Sudan1885.

    Missing funds from White Russian treasury 1920.

    Ottoman army funds ww1 1918

    Missing cargo plane load of gold in 1946 off west coast of Africa.

    Crow

 

 
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