Jesuits in 1838 in the States

[Oroblanco]

Thanks, Joe. I know it's not a popular stance to doubt the legends, but that's where the evidence and logic lead me.

I beg to differ, it is EXTREMELY popular to doubt ALL treasure legends and especially anything Jesuit. If you doubt that simply take a spin through some of the old posts here. I would also suggest for you to read the Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico 1767, published by a Catholic book publisher originally and available online. It lists some of the mines owned openly by the Jesuits, and in the fine print take note that some of the 'haciendas' listed, are actually MILLS for processing ores.

 

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[sdcfia]

Oops, not so fastSDC my friend. whilt I liked your post I feel that I have to point out several things. First Longetude is strictly 'time'.There was no effective time piece unti the later 1800's. Prior to that they had to calculate time by a noon day shot or reading.in which the height of the sun was est9mated by it's shotest length on a prepared area. similar to a 'U' shaped pattern, with the height was measured by the position, on the arc. A not very accurate thingie, sunject to precise timing.

On the matter of Latitude they anly had astrobabs' which were dependent again upon the author, not very precise, which is why the search for a better system was inaugerated culminating with the invention of the sextant and the octant.

Now move that to the Mexican barrancas which are some of the most rugged on the Planet, since the ones we are concerned with are also subject to the Hurricanes and their subsequent erosion whih torential rain and you have a situation in which a mine can disappear over night .

Example of ths barranca country ---- A sigting is that accurate for those times , in this type of country, subject to change with every tropical storm or huricane and you see where the difficulty lies. This ranch is built on top of the piie of Adobe ruins of the headquarters up at Tayopa

Yes, mine can be lost. even the tailings will blend in.

Don Jose, as you know, on earth, time is simply degrees of longitude. Clocks can be thought of as monitors of the daily progress of our spinning globe. The accurate mariners' timepiece, developed by Harrison in the 18th century, was a convenient piece of technology that really only emulated celestial observations that apparently were in use by informed navigators for millenia. It's been asserted that this knowledge was closely guarded by the few while merchant sailors muddled along with their crude (but reasonably effective) east-west navigational techniques. Think of the ecliptic plane as an inverse clock constantly displaying precise, measurable movement.

Ever wonder what the obsession of the ancients was in keeping such precise records of celestial movements, gathered for generations in their observatories? These "temples", in various forms, have been found worldwide - pyramids, henges, aligned buildings, etc. Think of these structures as control points, if you will, for establishing data (including lat/long) that could enhance navigational accuracy for world travelers in our dim and distant history. "Nothing new under the sun." Also, it's interesting that the words "temple" and "time" have similar root origins. This topic is complex, fascinating and beyond the scope of this thread's purpose, but well worth investigating - especially for those interested in diffusionism and ancient history.

To the point here, it's my contention that the Jesuits would have been aware of such knowledge and capable of using it. By extension, this brilliant organization was simply incapable of "losing" locations of rich gold mines. Simple as that. They would have had any number of opportunities and methods of recording the mines' locations, high-tech or low-tech, take your choice. What does it imply when it is alleged that these legendary mines are "lost?"

 

[sdcfia]

I beg to differ, it is EXTREMELY popular to doubt ALL treasure legends and especially anything Jesuit. If you doubt that simply take a spin through some of the old posts here. I would also suggest for you to read the Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico 1767, published by a Catholic book publisher originally and available online. It lists some of the mines owned openly by the Jesuits, and in the fine print take note that some of the 'haciendas' listed, are actually MILLS for processing ores.

Oro, I choose not respond to your post #20 because, as you know, I have previously answered those points and many others in similar threads. I understand and appreciate the opinions you've offered, and even though I disagree with your arguments, I don't see any point in continuing to keep plowing the same ground. Also, as I've constantly had to remind you and Mike, my interest has been in discussing the Southern Arizona Jesuit mining allegations, not what happened in Mexico, Bolivia, the Philippines, or elsewhere. I do suspect Kino had an agenda vis a vis valuable caches of some sort in the American Southwest - in Arizona and possibly New Mexico. However, the fact that home-grown Arizona Jesuit caches have not been recovered by the Order strongly points to the conclusion that there were no Jesuit mine caches in Arizona worth recovering.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SDC, a side point on losing a loation. On La Taraasa hunt I found what I was looking for, but when I retuned I spent two days without finding it again, then on a third try there it was staring me in the face. 'IT' refers to a collapsed portal and the first room where they were mining.

Now why couldn"t I find it the second time ? It is on the banks of a barranca, you can still the origional portal, it hadn't collapsed, but the workings behind it had collapsed - whether from the Spaniards or subsequentt finders taking the support pillars out or ?? ,

Today they would never lose a mine ?? but in that day it was very easy, since their workings consisted of forced, uneconomical labor, they only had fire as their principal mechanical force, so they would only remove as much of the materiel as was necessary to acomplish their purpose. Their works in general, especially on the frontier, were of the most ecconimical labor conditions and were often what we call rabbit holes. . There were no loftly portals, in many cases there was only enough room for an Indian to move through while carrying a rawhide container full of whatever. The tailings were often discarded in the raceway of a nearby barranca where they we quickly mixed in with the nomal rubble of the arroyo.

In the Tayopa country they listed 18 mines within 2000 meters yet today I defy you to find most of them without specifi cetale, most that were e re discovered were due to the collapsing Portals exposing the tunnels.


View attachment distance of the mines from Tayopa itself.jpg

 

[sdcfia]

SDC, a side point on losing a loation. On La Taraasa hunt I found what I was looking for, but when I retuned I spent two days without finding it again, then on a third try there it was staring me in the face. 'IT' refers to a collapsed portal and the first room where they were mining.
Now why couldn"t I find it the second time ? It is on the banks of a barranca, you can still the origional portal, it hadn't collapsed, but the workings behind it had collapsed - whether from the Spaniards or subsequent finders taking the support pillars out or ?? ,

Today they would never lose a mine ?? ...

Oh, I know darn well how you can "lose a mine." One day quite a few years ago, I was hiking with my dog (black Lab) into reasonably mild terrain when we saw about a dozen elk edging away from us, just a couple minutes after I left my truck - a place I'd parked at least 50 times before. Since I normally explored that country randomly - looking for Indian stuff, old cavalry sites and old mines - I just started following the elk to see where we'd end up. After about ten minutes (I thought), traveling northeast (I thought), the elk ran up a little talus slope that looked to me like a mine dump. Well, it was. There was an old overgrown open vertical shaft, about a hundred feet deep, on top of the dump with a big dead juniper tree filling the collar and obscuring the place. There was a weird old wheel thing on the ground near the mine with a homemade pipe axle driveshaft thing sticking straight up in the air about fifteen feet. I was afraid to poke around the mine shaft too much that day because I was afraid my dog might fall in the hole if I was messing around too close to it, so I decided to come back another day. I noticed a couple nice landmarks in the distance and figured it would be a snap coming back to the site - just a few minutes from the truck, on an obvious dump with a big tall steel pole on top. I didn't have a gps with me that day - I had been in a hurry and left on the roof of my truck. Ha ha. I had a topo map and compass with me, but didn't bother using it to triangulate my position.

I looked hard for that place at least twenty different times over the next five years, each time telling myself how easy it should be to find and wondering why I couldn't. Over and over, griding off search zones, marking off covered areas on a topo map, retracing my route time after time. Five years - no cigar. The mine had vanished somehow.

Then my searching buddy called me up one day and told me he had been roaming that country and had found my mine. He gave me the coordinates. The mine was northwest of the parking spot, not northeast. It was a mile away, about 40 minutes or more in that terrain, not 10 minutes. I learned a valuable lesson about trusting your memory - it's unreliable.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Wonderful story SDC my friend. Yes it happens., but I still can't explain why I couldn't find that mine the second time. Course with Oro or Cactus It can be explained easily - ---------

I.m fascinated by that wheel type of a device, I can imagiine many uses but unfortunately ithe detail that I need is hidden be the brush etc. Ya have another picture of it ??

 

[Oroblanco]

To the point here, it's my contention that the Jesuits would have been aware of such knowledge and capable of using it. By extension, this brilliant organization was simply incapable of "losing" locations of rich gold mines. Simple as that. They would have had any number of opportunities and methods of recording the mines' locations, high-tech or low-tech, take your choice. What does it imply when it is alleged that these legendary mines are "lost?"

Why would you assume that if some Jesuits had excellent knowledge of longitude and geography, then ipso facto the entire Order knows it? We know that they did not all receive identical training in every topic. Not all Jesuits were mapmakers, for instance. Then too, as good as the maps made by Jesuits were, they are far from perfect. What does that imply viz "legendary" lost mines?

Perhaps a re-read of the padres own letters home might be enlightening? Just a thought of course, but we might note that in those personal letters we find little information about any of the mission business enterprises, whether cattle ranching or crops or mines. Just the complaints of tired men that are over-busy and over-loaded with tasks, something the Franciscans even sarcastically commented on after the Jesuit departure.

 

[sdcfia]

Wonderful story SDC my friend. Yes it happens., but I still can't explain why I couldn't find that mine the second time. Course with Oro or Cactus It can be explained easily - ---------

I.m fascinated by that wheel type of a device, I can imagiine many uses but unfortunately ithe detail that I need is hidden be the brush etc. Ya have another picture of it ??

Yes. Here:

 

[sdcfia]

Why would you assume that if some Jesuits had excellent knowledge of longitude and geography, then ipso facto the entire Order knows it? We know that they did not all receive identical training in every topic. Not all Jesuits were mapmakers, for instance. Then too, as good as the maps made by Jesuits were, they are far from perfect. What does that imply viz "legendary" lost mines?

Perhaps a re-read of the padres own letters home might be enlightening? Just a thought of course, but we might note that in those personal letters we find little information about any of the mission business enterprises, whether cattle ranching or crops or mines. Just the complaints of tired men that are over-busy and over-loaded with tasks, something the Franciscans even sarcastically commented on after the Jesuit departure.

I guess if it were my show and my guys in Arizona had found some very rich mines, I would send out the navigators to locate and/or mark their locations. Then let the locals carry on with their work. Most well-run organizations are following some sort of plan, especially those set up using a military-like strategy. The soldiers in the field have no idea what the generals in the big tents are thinking. They have their duties and they follow orders.

As far as the correspondence is concerned, most of it probably is trivial. However, as I mentioned earlier, it's very easy for smart guys to hide valuable information in mundane chatter. I'm not about to read all that stuff, because the results of the mine legends seem to speak for themselves. Very quietly. You're right though - if some remarkable discoveries come to light, it would be interesting to reverse-engineer the documents.

 

[audigger53]

OK, I can give you one right now. Sonoyita, Mexico. Just across the border from Lukesville, AZ. The locals there admit that their ancestors mined gold for the fathers before they up rose and killed them. The casket of the founding father was accidentally popped out from under the lintel, when they were using a dozer to straighten out a wash so the bridge would not be washed away. In the casket were 2 little gold bells, "Like those for mules". Did the Spanish know about the mining? No. Does that mean it was "Hidden Mining from the King?" You bet. If you want to prove it yourself, go there and talk to the locals like had a friend do.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

AU, have an interesting story from the Sonita area, my parner worked one of the Gold mines there and used that area to prove out his version of a Table.

 

[audigger53]

I did see an old mine in the mountains behind Sinyoita. Nice talus slope and could see where the front of the shaft had collapsed using 10X50's from my side.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

au the idians took a mule train and since they had no whre to cash the gold they simply left it there, the guns and equipment were the real prizes for them. It was somewhere on the slope near the mines, there were several, the reason for
sonita's existance in the old days.

 

[Oroblanco]

Back on the topic

To try to get back to the topic here, it is interesting at the machinations or schemes that were under consideration in the time period after the Jesuits were officially "disbanded forever". Here is one example:

<from the Edinburgh Review, Jan 1810>
Remember our discussion of the Jesuits intrigue with the Dutch and English, to betray the Spanish colonies, which was even reported in an English publication of the time? Also, the two Jesuits that returned to Argentina after the suppression to relocate and reopen mines? Then recall the incident reported in Arizona newspapers of a Jesuit that returned to empty a vault?

:Coffee2:

 

[Gary M Herndon]

I have no faith in the goodness of the Jesuits. Other orders have done lots of good for the Tribes in the Southwest. But then the Jesuits were the "Military Arm of the Church". They went with the Armies as they killed and enslaved the Indians, and blessed the soldiers as they killed and raped in the name of God. I'm afraid I am a little biased about this order. Sorry if it bothers any one. Every where they went, they looked for the Glory of the Order more than the Glory of God. IMO.

Do remember .... You are condemning an entire Religious Faith instead of just a Religious Organization. Please pick your words carefully. ME? Doesn't bother me in the least, Yo I'm buyin You in?