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  1. #61

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Deducer,

    Gold could be refined to a very high degree hundreds of years ago as evidenced by some of the gold bars recovered from the Atocha (1622). The bars are marked in Karats from 16 through 23.5.

    When I say refined, I don't necessarily mean .9999 pure. By refined, I mean a step beyond Dore.

    .........as to where the bars came from...............I have no idea. None of them were marked in any way (according to Willie). Because nobody has found Willie's Cave (that I am aware of), I don't believe anything was added to the mix. In the case of The bars under Victorio Peak, Doc described the amount of bullion he saw. It was FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR less than the "approximately 93 million troy ounces" as described by Capt Orby Swanner. In Doc's Case, I think the government mixed gold from either (or both) recovered plunder from Europe and\or the Pacific by the Axis Powers during WWII.


    DIRT1955,

    I don't believe so. At least (according to Willie) as of 1998 nobody had found his cave. Doc Noss had a second cave in the Caballos that he showed to Willie at some point. This cave MAY have been found by Fred Drolte in the 1970s. There are reports of Drolte telling all his workers to leave the site one day (the site being The Drolte Hole). Drolte supposedly hauled something out of the hole that night, then paid off his workers handsomely. One of the workers told this story. Can't verify one word of it though. LOL

    Mike
    Thanks for sharing this fascinating story- if you're able, please share more.

    Have you formed an opinion on where the gold came from and who put it there?
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Not even near the ballpark. There are several historical claims near your spot, but for Willie's Cave, Drolte Hole, Doc's Caballo Cave, you need to be in the area of Burbank Canyon to the North. I promise you will never find it on G.E.

    Mike
    Not expecting to find it using GE, however, locating areas where natural caves may be formed is possible with GE
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    time for another drink

  3. #63
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan m View Post
    Not expecting to find it using GE, however, locating areas where natural caves may be formed is possible with GE

    Alan,

    You REALLY need to talk to some locals about caves there. More stories than you could shake a stick at. Willie's Cave is not exposed. It is sealed. If it were an open cave it would have been found loooooong ago.

    Deducer,

    I really couldn't say. One thing for sure; if the two maps are real, and they do fit nicely together, they show two two "Almacens" (counting rooms/warehouses). One look like in the Caballos and one somewhere near the headwaters of the Gila River. The latter being the largest and most important. If the two maps are authentic, they also show that the Caballo Almacen was on the route the gold and silver took from the Sonora Mines of the Jesuit Order. The map shows a mule train would start from "La Sonora" which was run at the time of the map by a Padre Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco SJ. The loads from the various mines would intersect with the path of the La Sonora Mule Train at different intervals.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    THIS map shows a Mule Train Trail from Jesuit Sonoran Mines straight to a Counting Room/Warehouse in the Caballo Mountains. If the map is authentic, then it is strong evidence for the bullion found there as being from those mines!

    Mike
    Last edited by gollum; Jul 20, 2019 at 03:13 AM.
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    "You wouldn't like me when I'm mad, because I back up my rage with hard facts and logic!" - The Credible Hulk

    ............... ALWAYS REMEMBER: When you make a typo, the errorists win...................Aloha Snackbar!

  4. #64

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Deducer,

    I really couldn't say. One thing for sure; if the two maps are real, and they do fit nicely together, they show two two "Almacens" (counting rooms/warehouses). One look like in the Caballos and one somewhere near the headwaters of the Gila River. The latter being the largest and most important. If the two maps are authentic, they also show that the Caballo Almacen was on the route the gold and silver took from the Sonora Mines of the Jesuit Order. The map shows a mule train would start from "La Sonora" which was run at the time of the map by a Padre Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco SJ. The loads from the various mines would intersect with the path of the La Sonora Mule Train at different intervals.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img131.jpg 
Views:	39 
Size:	277.7 KB 
ID:	1734515

    THIS map shows a Mule Train Trail from Jesuit Sonoran Mines straight to a Counting Room/Warehouse in the Caballo Mountains. If the map is authentic, then it is strong evidence for the bullion found there as being from those mines!

    Mike
    Mike,

    You mentioned two maps.

    Does your other map contain the phrase "Anno Mariano" at the bottom?

    If so, I agree that those two maps are very much related, and are real- but that the map you posted (or rather NP) is a hand-drawn copy of another map.
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  5. #65
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post

    Deducer,

    I really couldn't say. One thing for sure; if the two maps are real, and they do fit nicely together, they show two two "Almacens" (counting rooms/warehouses). One look like in the Caballos and one somewhere near the headwaters of the Gila River. The latter being the largest and most important. If the two maps are authentic, they also show that the Caballo Almacen was on the route the gold and silver took from the Sonora Mines of the Jesuit Order. The map shows a mule train would start from "La Sonora" which was run at the time of the map by a Padre Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco SJ. The loads from the various mines would intersect with the path of the La Sonora Mule Train at different intervals.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img131.jpg 
Views:	39 
Size:	277.7 KB 
ID:	1734515

    THIS map shows a Mule Train Trail from Jesuit Sonoran Mines straight to a Counting Room/Warehouse in the Caballo Mountains. If the map is authentic, then it is strong evidence for the bullion found there as being from those mines!

    Mike
    That map appears to be a sort of summary chart similar to the more detailed "MLCXVI ANNO MARIANO" map (I won't post that map - don't ask), which essentially shows the same information and much, much more. The provenance of both maps is unknown, but it's my working model that the information contained on them far predate the Jesuits, and the 16th Century too for that matter.

    The Jesuits may have somehow had access to this original map information and possibly re-discovered old mines in the Sonora region based on their intel. I don't believe the Jesuits ever ventured into the Caballos (through Apache territory), as New Mexico had been granted by Papal Bull to the Franciscans and was clearly under their control at the time. However, it does bring to mind the unsubstantiated rumors that Kino may have made covert reconnaissance missions into, say, the Gila headwaters region.

    Bottom line: it seems plausible there is a solid link between the Gila headwaters region and the Caballos that predates the Spanish Conquest.
    deducer and Oroblanco like this.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Mike,

    You mentioned two maps.

    Does your other map contain the phrase "Anno Mariano" at the bottom?

    If so, I agree that those two maps are very much related, and are real- but that the map you posted (or rather NP) is a hand-drawn copy of another map.

    No, the other map is not the Anno Mariano. It is the map Willie Douthitt used to find his cave that he got when he killed young Jack Reynolds:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you orient the map 90° Clockwise, you get a very good representation of the Rio Grande from the curve to past Truth or Consequences. Notice the trail comes from the Southwest right to the mountains? Just like the previous map. One thing that lends credence to Willie's Map is a glyph found in the mountains:

    Name:  mapmatch1.JPG
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    If you look closely, you will see that glyph on the map.

    Mike
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    "You wouldn't like me when I'm mad, because I back up my rage with hard facts and logic!" - The Credible Hulk

    ............... ALWAYS REMEMBER: When you make a typo, the errorists win...................Aloha Snackbar!

  7. #67

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    No, the other map is not the Anno Mariano. It is the map Willie Douthitt used to find his cave that he got when he killed young Jack Reynolds:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	map.jpg 
Views:	32 
Size:	149.9 KB 
ID:	1734678

    If you orient the map 90° Clockwise, you get a very good representation of the Rio Grande from the curve to past Truth or Consequences. Notice the trail comes from the Southwest right to the mountains? Just like the previous map. One thing that lends credence to Willie's Map is a glyph found in the mountains:

    Name:  mapmatch1.JPG
Views: 145
Size:  23.9 KB

    If you look closely, you will see that glyph on the map.

    Mike
    Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

    I do agree that the map is meant to be viewed in the way you describe it. I've seen the two symbols circled in yellow below, on another map- accompanied by the words levante and poniente which of course you would know to be the rising of the sun and the setting of it, e.g., a clue to the cardinal directions, East and West- and therefore the proper orientation of the map. I don't want to reveal too many details but there are quite a few similarities between the other maps I've seen and the one you just posted.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    I don't believe the Jesuits ever ventured into the Caballos (through Apache territory), as New Mexico had been granted by Papal Bull to the Franciscans and was clearly under their control at the time.
    You may want to revisit that premise after reading a little about the Jesuit-Franciscan dispute over territory known today as New Mexico, here.

    In May of 1651, the Jesuits were told to stay west of the headwaters of the Bavipse.

    I now suspect that the Jesuit practice of sequestering their riches was not something done on the event of expulsion or the expectation of it, but was in fact, something started on day one, from the moment they set foot on New Spain. That is, they already had their game plan by the time they put foot down on terra firma. Let's face it, everyone that set out west for New Spain had visions of gold dancing in their heads. They went there to get rich. Evangelizing was just another excuse to plunder.

    So by the time the area known as New Mexico was granted to the Franciscans, I think that the Caballos almacen was something that had already been underway for a very long time.
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  9. #69
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    You may want to revisit that premise after reading a little about the Jesuit-Franciscan dispute over territory known today as New Mexico, here.

    In May of 1651, the Jesuits were told to stay west of the headwaters of the Bavipse.

    I now suspect that the Jesuit practice of sequestering their riches was not something done on the event of expulsion or the expectation of it, but was in fact, something started on day one, from the moment they set foot on New Spain. That is, they already had their game plan by the time they put foot down on terra firma. Let's face it, everyone that set out west for New Spain had visions of gold dancing in their heads. They went there to get rich. Evangelizing was just another excuse to plunder.

    So by the time the area known as New Mexico was granted to the Franciscans, I think that the Caballos almacen was something that had already been underway for a very long time.
    Yes, there was some friction between the two Orders in the 17th Century, even the alleged intrusion(s) by Kino. However, to the point, an apparently large scale Jesuit gold caching operation smack on the Camino Real de Tierra Adentro at the Caballos, 100 miles north of Paseo del Norte (as speculated by the rumors) is unsupported. If there are true facts underlying the modern "treasure maps" in the region, the origin of the loot remains unidentified, IMO.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  10. #70
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    If you learn how those Ancient store houses are made and marked, you dont need a map. Just drive to any mountain range out here in the south west and you can spot them. They also have been marked by a great group of Treasure hunters from the past. You have the Canadians that seem to have knowledge of those store houses out here. They seem to be trying to work their way into getting at them thru a fake front as wanting to mine for non precious metals. I hope the U.S.A doesn't give them permission. Its kinda interesting that the French got that knowledge. I sure would like to see our Government work with treasure hunters here in the U.S.A. to open those sites.

  11. #71

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    Yes, there was some friction between the two Orders in the 17th Century, even the alleged intrusion(s) by Kino. However, to the point, an apparently large scale Jesuit gold caching operation smack on the Camino Real de Tierra Adentro at the Caballos, 100 miles north of Paseo del Norte (as speculated by the rumors) is unsupported. If there are true facts underlying the modern "treasure maps" in the region, the origin of the loot remains unidentified, IMO.
    The Camino Real de Tierra Adentro (CARTA for short) didn't become a busy route until well into the 18th century, long after the Jesuits had gone.

    And it isn't as if they used the CARTA, because all three maps show that the routes they took crossed the Rio Grande from a Southwestern direction, from Sonora.

    Also don't forget the Pueblo revolt of 1680 which was a huge setback to the Spanish colonizers- and virtually left New Mexico unattended for the next several decades, during which only conductas made the journey north, every three years, to supply the missions and presidios.

  12. #72
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    Man, I need to pack my bags and move to the Southwest before I get too old to be scampering up and down mountains.

  13. #73
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    Jesuit Symbols?

    Dog’s post got me thinking: I read about some of you researching The Spanish Archives for information or clues about these mining operations. It blows my mind that there would still be information detailing the locations of gold and silver mines, storehouses, etc that hasn’t already been exploited by the big boys (billion dollar mining corps, political titans etc)). Surely information like that would be immensely valuable to the people in charge (Royal families, Roman Catholic ecumenical councils) and would be protected through politically turbulent times. If I was a European regent or religious leader and understood that the wealth of America is forever out of reach, I would capitalize on my knowledge and sell that information to the industrial barons or heads of state of 18th/19th century USA.

    So where/how did these maps you guys are sharing or alluding to end up in the hands of mere mortals (no offense, lol!) ??
    Last edited by Ryano; Jul 21, 2019 at 07:46 AM.
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  14. #74
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    Why you guys were busy tapping on your keyboards trying to figure out who did what and were they went and how to get in the storage this company came in and got it.
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  15. #75
    us
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    “measuring electrical properties of the earth...” thats how a metal detector works, right ?

    https://www.usgs.gov/news/low-flying...y-area-montana
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