Cole Younger and Family, Quantrill's Boys and the Tombstone Tourist

[Kace]

View attachment 1604620

Ug,
The Arizona masonic web site includes WOW as a Masonic organization.

Here is a MKT/WOW monument from 1919, in a Catholic cemetery.
WH

Nice To See You Back White Heart!! Nice Pic Too.

A couple things to keep in mind that I've seen with cemeteries from that era and some farther back to present day is that there are areas in Protestant Cemeteries for Catholics....The ground has been consecrated for Catholic Burials....Some for Jewish even and some like a big one here have a section for Masons and wives if they had them who wanted to be buried in the same section as their Masonic Brothers... that particular cemetery was founded by Masons. The same works in Catholic Cemeteries for Protestant Burials.

Like Reb said there are Catholic Masons but that's not in keeping with being in good standing with the Catholic Church.

I haven't heard of it lately but years ago if the Catholic Church found out a Man was a Mason, he could and most likely would be excommunicated... period.

After your hand sign thread where we were all talking about this, I pulled out Cabinet/Mass cards and the Books of Catholic Mass of Christian Burials from 1858 to 1962 I think it is. One of these books walks Non Catholic attendees through the funeral Mass in detail.

I thought if you wanted to know how it was done back then in the Catholic Church from last rights if they could be preformed, caskets, to walking to the Church and then Cemetery for Burial. All prayers and rituals are included in these books, I have them handy so just ask if there's something you'd like to know about the formal Mass of Burial and Rosary. I'm happy to share.

Funny story... back in late April I was at a Catholic Wedding with Full Mass at a Church I hadn't been to in years... anyway when I went up for communion I drank from the Chalice and it was Mogen David Wine! I didn't expect Jewish Wine at an Italian Catholic Wedding! lol!

Kace

 

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[Kace]

I didn't take a pic of this at the time, I can go back... but the Masonic cemetery I mentioned has graves going east to west and north to south then east to west again just a row apart... Looking from a distance they look like the Capital letter I on a keyboard. It's the weirdest thing. I've seen graves going both directions but never that close together.

I didn't check to see what religion these people were. I should do that I guess.

Kace

 

[White Heart]

Kace,
Thank you for offering information from the Books of Catholic Mass of Christian Burials.
I am still curious about the fact that "our man" was walking at the left shoulder of and even with the priest after you mentioned that the priest should have led the procession. What does it mean?
Also, does that book or others you might have give bell ringing instructions for death in the parish?
30 years ago while living in a mountain village just across the road from the church , I observed a custom that has since ceased due to the death of the ringer. I offered to take over, but not being Catholic ........
It seems it could be what Poe was referring to in his poem, "For Whom the Bell tolls".

At dawn, the day after a death, the church bell was first rung in a wild cacophony to awaken the living.
Next, the bell was rung in solid singular tolls; 6 times for a woman and 9 times for a man.
Then, in groups of 5 rings, the first a loud toll, followed by 4 light dings, the age was told.
So, one was awakened and within minutes had a good idea of who had died the day before.
More than once I counted by 5's to over 100.
And once, it stopped at 24 and I knew my helper, the only 24 year old male in the village, had passed.

WH

 

[Kace]

WH... I'll look through the books on the bells.. I know the Church Bell was used to convey every message to the community possible from a fire to deaths or anything the community needed to know. It's still used in some areas.

I only have first hand knowledge of seeing and hearing this in small and rural country Baptist communities and then Catholic communities of all sizes. In the predominantly Baptist communities since everyone was either Baptist or Pentecostal there... any elder of either denomination could announce by Tolling the bell any deaths that occurred since they were usually with the person at the time of death or the first to know. That happens there at anytime day or night.

If it's another type of news or emergency that needs to be conveyed Anyone that can get to the bell first is allowed to Ring it.

Is there anyway you can block out the face of your man and show him and the Priest together? What I'm wondering is on a Still Photograph is there a way to tell if they were actually walking together or if the shot was taken just as he and the Priest were stopped next to each other on the way to or from the church or cemetery. Or does your guy have something on that might identify him as a Priest even if he's not fully adorned??

Now in Rare circumstances where there is a Catholic Priest and a Protestant Minister leading the services... that's really rare and it wouldn't be a Full Mass of Christian Burial I have seen them walk together and they are in their respective robes with adornments.

I only saw this once and it was a man who was raised as a devout Catholic and he Married a Lutheran.. He went to Church with her and over the years didn't go to Mass much.... when he died his wife wanted a Lutheran Funeral which is very similar to Catholic Funerals but his Family wanted a Catholic Mass... He was given last rites.

The Priest Couldn't do the Mass at the Lutheran Church and the Minister couldn't do the service at the Catholic Cathederal so it was at a funeral home that the Priest and Minister Co-Officiated. That was probably 30yrs ago. He was buried in a consecrated grave at a Protestant cemetery. I remember hearing talk about it and it being said that if his family hadn't been such generous donors to their Parish and the Cathederal that would of never happened. Who knows if that's right?...His name is listed on a big plaque though at the Parish as one of the neighborhood boys who fought in WWII. The Rosary was prayed at the Cathederal.

Sorry... got off track there!

In a formal Catholic walking procession, whether it's a regular Mass, Funeral or Wedding, only Priests if there are two present will walk shoulder to shoulder...If a Bishop is present, He would walk ahead of the Priest. Alter Boys for instance will walk shoulder to shoulder... I'm not saying you're looking at a pic of alter boys... that was just an example.

Priests enter and exit the Church before the bereaved if at a funeral... they will put Holy Water on the casket before it's brought into the Catholic Church.

I'll look through these books for the information you need. Hopefully it's there!

Kace

EDIT: Another storm blew through today (yesterday now) again. I just got in...an F-0 Tornado with 80mph winds hit parts of town and a local lake throwing boats on to the shore and damaging quite a few homes and docks.... power lines down even by the water going to docks so it's pretty serious due to the electrical danger. Anyway I was out there helping friends and didn't get to go through the funeral books... However when I mentioned to my Mother about the Church Bell 'Ringing' at a Funeral... I was told that 'The Church Bell Does Not Ring For The Deceased or At A Funeral'... 'The Church Bell Tolls'... 'Church Bells 'Ring' at Weddings'

So I've Edited My Wording.

Sorry for using the incorrect verbiage. lol!

Kace

 

[Ryano]

i grew up in a small, traditional Episcopal church in Maryville, TN (was originally the first Quaker meeting house built in Tenn !). What Kace describes is very familiar to me since the Episcopal service is likewise very similar to the Catholic. I was “active” in my boyhood to mid-teens and started as an altar boy, followed by promotions to acolyte then crucifer. The bishop coming to town every few years was always a big deal that required exhorting the congregation for funds to repaint something or plaster a ceiling. I was more interested in searching for secret passageways in the church basement or driving the rector mad with questions about devils and demons from my dungeons and dragons books !

pardon my interruption...

 

[Kace]

i grew up in a small, traditional Episcopal church in Maryville, TN (was originally the first Quaker meeting house built in Tenn !). What Kace describes is very familiar to me since the Episcopal service is likewise very similar to the Catholic. I was “active” in my boyhood to mid-teens and started as an altar boy, followed by promotions to acolyte then crucifer. The bishop coming to town every few years was always a big deal that required exhorting the congregation for funds to repaint something or plaster a ceiling. I was more interested in searching for secret passageways in the church basement or driving the rector mad with questions about devils and demons from my dungeons and dragons books !

pardon my interruption...

lol! You are Not Interrupting Ry... All information and input is very helpful to everyone! We all only 'know what we know' so every bit of knowledge from all sources and experiences other than our own is valuable.

Kace

 

[L.C. BAKER]

I speak fluent incorrect verbiage Kace, please continue.....

 

[Kace]

I speak fluent incorrect verbiage Kace, please continue.....

LMAO! Now That's Funny!

Kace

 

[White Heart]

Kace,
Thanks for your reply and thanks to your Mother for the difference between toll and ring. The meaning of words is important.
As I said, the Priest and our man were standing for the photo, ahead of the hearse, shoulder to shoulder. Priest on the right as they walked.

When you have heard church bells toll for a death, was it in the pattern I observed?

WH

 

[Kace]

Kace,
Thanks for your reply and thanks to your Mother for the difference between toll and ring. The meaning of words is important.
As I said, the Priest and our man were standing for the photo, ahead of the hearse, shoulder to shoulder. Priest on the right as they walked.

When you have heard church bells toll for a death, was it in the pattern I observed?

WH

Thank You WH.....I'll make sure and let her know that you appreciated her input and correction of my wording! You're right though, the wording is very important on this. Also Inside and Outside Bells and Tolling Mean Different Things.

Ok...Here's what I've found on the Tolling of the Outside Catholic Church Bell.

I have heard what you described as far as sequence but the sequences I've heard have been in predominantly Italian, Irish and Scots-Irish communities and those Catholic Churches. That's also except for one German Catholic Funeral Missal what books I have. I've learned that different ethnic groups have different customs when it comes to the Death Knell (pronounced Nail) and Tolling of the Bell.

This will be the older practices since that's what you're interested in.

In the Scots-Irish, Italian and Irish Community Catholic Churches the Tolling of the Outside Bell was:

Seven Loud and Slow Tolls to get everyone's attention that there had been a death

PAUSE

3 Tolls for a Male... 2 Tolls for a Female

PAUSE

One Slow Toll For Each Decade of the Deceased's Life then Shorter and Faster Tolls for Years.

A 45yr old male who died would be 3 Tolls-pause-4 Slow Tolls-short pause-5 Faster Tolls.

So I Phoned An 89yr old German Catholic Friend of my Mothers... she was living in Germany still when the war was going on.... She had me do a conference call with Her 88yr old Hungarian Catholic Sister-In-Law after hearing my questions...Liz (G) and Helga (H). That was a riot and very interesting... I'd heard a lot of stories before from Liz but not Helga.

What I've learned is different ethnicities have different customs and that includes the way the Death Knell is done.

What you described as sequences is what they described going in increments of 5.. two for each decade instead of 10.. one for each decade. The years were the same as you said and there was the 7 death announcement Tolls in both.... so at that point all was the same except decades. Then came the Tolling telling the sex of the deceased... For both of them they said it's 9 Tolls for a Man and 6 Tolls for a Woman.

A friend of mine who grew up in San Antonio and attended a predominantly Hispanic Catholic Church also said 7-9 and 6 Tolls.

There is The Death Knell of One Toll at the Start of the Funeral and One Toll Leaving the Church for the Cemetery. Then if the cemetery is close there are more sequences of Tolling at the burial.

Also... Not always it depends on the custom of the community and ethnic make up of that Catholic Church... There is Death Tolling of the Bell at the point Last Rites are given when imminent death is coming and then the formal Bell Tolling Starts at the time of death.

I hope that helps... it's definitely not set in stone how parishes do it and a lot of times nowadays if it's a new church being built or an older existing church is undergoing renovations the bells are digitized and speakers play pre-programmed rings and tolls.

I like it better the old way myself.

Kace

 

[White Heart]

Amazing Kace!

It is possible that the burst of tolls that awoke our village was indeed 7. Just to fast to count as eyes opened.
I am scots dutch, raised Presbyterian. Most family in Masonic Cemeteries. Our bell was electric and the was no protocol that I am aware of.
Thanks for the report.
WH

 

[Kace]

Treasure Hunting Using Names and Ethnicity For Clues on Markers

I'm going to say right off that I operate on a Much smaller scale than Baker when it comes to utilizing cemeteries and/or monuments for clues to buried or hidden caches. That doesn't mean I think he's wrong in his approach... it's just different. So if you've read what he's posted and looks for around markers, I think meshing these thoughts together would cover bases pretty well. More information that we all have the better.. right?

What I'm going to say has Nothing at all to do with Real Graves... I Do Not Mess Around With Real Graves. Anyone can put Anything on a Marker and pretty much Anyone can make one. Dates on fake stones and some real ones can mean nothing or everything. Research is the only way to tell.

In many small towns or communities there is either a cemetery registrar or the church handles recording of who they were told is buried there. You just get ahold of whoever records burials in the community owned cemetery and tell them Name/Birth/Death and Section,Row and Number. They've never needed anything official like copies of birth or death certificates. Historical Societies usually have records or information on where all cemeteries are located in that county. Some counties even have books done by historical cemetery preservation societies.

Community Cemeteries that have been around for a long time usually in small or non existent (Now) towns are maintained and kept up by annual donations of descendants of folks buried there and/or by folks making provisions in their will or trust for the cemetery. Folks chose their burial place by placing a brick or stone on a plot and etching their initials in it along with letting the recorder of burials at the time know. There was never a cost to purchase a grave site.

I'm a big believer in Names, Dates and the Ethnic majority of the makeup of communities and the customs that were brought to this country from their homeland. Those things have been passed through the generations. Immigrants and 1st-2nd generation didn't trust anyone but their own kind and even then most times it was limited to kin if something valuable or serious. That's not news to anyone. There's still a lot of mistrust of outsiders in some areas.

I've mentioned before Family Plots in Public Cemeteries and Family Cemeteries on Private Land. In my experience Women and Children's Names were Primarily used as clues on fake tombstones of people who never existed or they were ancestors names of people who did not come to this country. Sometimes ethnic names were meshed together for clues. These folks used fake graves and markers because typically even the most calloused person didn't mess around with graves. Especially women and children.

Most folks immigrated somewhere along the East Coast or Canada and they met people from other parts of the world, sometimes spending a significant amount of time in areas where there were many immigrants from all over due to work before migrating South and West. They learned names and other words and meanings from each other.

It's important for this type of hunting to have a translation app on your phone or computer unless you happen to be fluent in many languages. It's also helpful if you have an idea what Surnames really mean and Why when folks came through immigration many times their name was changed and the Reason the New Name was Chosen. I've talked about this a little before on another couple of threads that I can't remember what they are now. After you find out what a surname means then check the given name on the stone or marker...

So with that said here's an example of a fake stone that was just a clue.... No Grave. No Real Person. Just a Marker. On Private Land.

Ona Sodergen
1861-1863
Beloved Daughter

Looking up the translation for Sodergren what it shows is Soder is Swedish for South in English and Gren means Branch or Creek in English. Ona is Hebrew for Graceful... but if you break it down to On A....and put the words together it says On a South Branch in English.

Looking around and finding a small creek (branch) down a sloping (graceful) draw that goes East to West but by walking it and finding it sharply turns South then just as sharply back again.

Very soon, Ona Sodergren turns into Sloping South Branch and there's the target area on top of the draw.

If your family kept records from immigration check out the paperwork or family Bibles sometimes have great records or you find family bibles with writing in them even if it's written in another language... buy them. Auctions and Estate Sales are perfect places to find this kind of stuff. Ancestry and other Genealogy Sites are also very helpful.

Sorry for the delay in posting this...I hope it helps in your hunts!

Kace

 

[Dirt1955]

Fascinating. Do continue.

 

[Kace]

Fascinating. Do continue.

**I Accidentally Left The "r" Out Of The gren Of The Marker I See...HA! Luckily it wasn't me carving it!

Dirt... You're Right...It is really fascinating the different ways folks left messages and clues.

This particular one was put there by a large number of relatives who had to leave their homes and the area during the war and they never did come back and since it wasn't a Swedish community it wasn't easily apparent to anyone what it really was saying ... Hidden in plain sight. It was made and left that way for whichever of them returned. None did, so there it remained.

Afterwards when I researched this I found out they had all worked in the Coal Mines back East...Scots-Irish... but they had worked with Swedish guys among other ethnic groups which is how they learned the language and names. When all the Railroad projects started back east it's astronomical the amount of different ethnicities who worked together and lived in close proximity to each other and like at the coal mines they learned others languages and customs. Women and children too of course.

There are a lot of these similar type of markers... not always Grave Stones... I've seen them on Lane Pillars and Rock Foundations of homes, Churches, cold storage buildings, fireplace stones, steps, boulders on properties... pretty much anything that folks didn't think could or would be stolen, burned or completely destroyed. Fake Grave Stones are what was primarily used though from my experience.

**If anyone would happen to find one of these directing you to or from an old cold storage building/foundation, cellar or icehouse... make sure and have gators on and watch for snakes... sawdust was used for insulation in walls and floors and it's an attractant for snakes and other unwanted visitors unless it's cedar. It was also a great deterrent to keep trespassers away from these structures when they were vacated for any length of time. I know of one really old cold storage building with a rock foundation and wooden walls and floors with sawdust insulation that although it's leaning pretty good, it's still standing and it's Full of snakes. I won't go in it. No Way.

I posted a pic either on this thread or the most recent thread by Baker of a Fake Grave that had been utilized by more than one person over the years and I still have the hibiscus that was planted on the plot by using starts of it as have others in my family. The photo shows the way the ground just collapsed over time.

This way of hiding clues isn't limited to just before, during or just after the civil war. It's been used for a very long time and during prohibition was Widely used... also before and during all wars and events where most of the able bodied men were gone for long periods especially in rural areas... and when they returned if they brought back valuables. Also..dates to look for where people hid things a lot are during the influenza pandemic... folks were afraid they would all die and left markers for any family that would come later. I'm just saying that so searches aren't limited to just the Civil War Era. I've found them up to 1929...I'd bet there's later ones also. I've got a 1909 dated fake marker in my yard. The earliest I've found is a birth year carved in the fake marker with a woman's name from the 1700's and that was in a family plot.

Just because dates are on a fake marker it doesn't always make them accurate.. if the actual year was 1918....nobody would put 1919 on it, but you could put anything prior to 1918 on it if the numbers were part of the message..

A good way to learn about any area you're interested in hunting this way is to find out who had the mills, who was the blacksmith, the stonemason if there was one local... who dug the wells if there was a well digger close, the banker...Who made the moonshine, who owned the store and livery. Anyone who dealt regularly in money or bartered valuables for services or could of had a large number of kin around. Find out their ethnic and religious backgrounds. Then start looking around, these fake markers could be in timber or off old trails... anywhere really. It's been my experience that they've been in areas that wouldn't flood just like real ones and there could be one...two or even more together. Take pics or write down exactly what they say for your translation app.

I say research religious backgrounds because if for instance you were Catholic and had moved to a predominantly Protestant area that was small, many times families hid the fact they were Catholic and would attend the local Protestant Church never telling outsiders they were Catholic so they could blend in better with locals. They still were practicing Catholics in their homes though. There are many different Bibles in many languages that were brought to this country and those words and/or names were often used on markers. Buy them at sales.

I posted about this before but Braille was also used to leave clues and messages in my neck of the woods anyway... Well from parts of Virginia, WV, Alabama, Arkansas, Oklahoma and in parts of Nebraska too that I know for sure by using holes... obviously it isn't raised dots like Braille writing unless it was on paper but the holes were done in the same writing symbolism. Most people didn't know Braille and many still don't....There wasn't anyone blind in my family but it was used and can be found on anything from stones to deadfall. It's just another covert way used to leave a message. On wood it usually looks like a woodpecker or wood worms were there. Stone markers holed can be any size from what I've seen. I keep the Braille alphabet and numbers on my phone also. From what I've seen on any marker more often than not the clue or message is on Stone and Not Wood, including trees due to the potential of fire or logging.

The holes that you might see in rocks.. those could also be drill or hammered holes depending on if there is a pattern. I've seen those used on really wide boulders and rock flats as crude eye levels for surveying type stuff. You'll see different depths of the holes. If a square hole is found, it's probably modern from what and where I've seen them...there's folks that believe the holes were put there to determine measurements to get to other clues or to a treasure... that could be true in some instances also. I don't personally know.

I hope what I've added helps...

If there's any questions, just ask...I'll share whatever I can.

Kace

Here's a pic of the 1909 fake markers death date that I have in my yard. The marker itself is the size of a real single flat headstone. The Sodergren marker is the standing slab type.

 

[GopherDaGold]

Thanks!

 

[etex]

Cole Younger at a Hotel in Ladonia, Texas in 1907, middle row, far right

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Was he KGC...?

 

[Kace]

Cole Younger at a Hotel in Ladonia, Texas in 1907, middle row, far right

View attachment 1616202 View attachment 1616203

Thanks E...I know he attended the funeral there and was in different areas of Texas for the shows. I don't have the towns in front of me now and only remember that Richards Hotel, then Brady, Bronham, Ladonia and Honey Grove I think it is where the shows were.

You probably know more about his documented travels down that way.

Thanks Again E For Posting That Pic...It's Very Nice.

Kace

 

[Kace]

Here's a WOW lapel pin that I saw on here, from Ardmore, Oklahoma...I can't remember who found it though Gold Pretty Cool Find.

Kace

 

[Kace]

I wanted to let you guys know, and I told UG I'd follow up on this, that Cole Younger's home in LS that was photographed, dismantled and every piece numbered, put in storage for future reassembly at another location at the direction of that new city council...Will Not Be Happening.

They Finally sent someone out to check on it and not only did weather get to it but so did carpenter ants, termites and rodents. It's basically dust and rotted. I'm Upset about it and not alone in my frustration. Not that it matters now. This Should of Never Happened. IF the home is ever rebuilt it won't be the original materials.

Kace