Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

[Ol' Kentuck]

Dang it, had ta delete my last post, gettin these entangled and confangled relationships straight is like counting the hairs in a horse's tail. Ever time ye think ye got a handle on it, out comes a load of crapola.

What I meant ta say was fer Roscoe ta be Jesse/Dalton's nephew, Roscoe's father or mother would have ta be Dalton's brother or sister.



I need some Apple Pie.

 

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[L.C. BAKER]

Dang it, had ta delete my last post, gettin these entangled and confangled relationships straight is like counting the hairs in a horse's tail. Ever time ye think ye got a handle on it, out comes a load of crapola.

What I meant ta say was fer Roscoe ta be Jesse/Dalton's nephew, Roscoe's father or mother would have ta be Dalton's brother or sister.



I need some Apple Pie.

The K.G.C. is even tougher to untangle and count.

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

The K.G.C. is even tougher to untangle and count.

View attachment 1676763

Nah. I can do it blindfolded.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Is that in the BB...?

 

[Kace]

Recap and Moving On...

ALEXANDER Franklin James was Not A Doctor before, during or after the war.

JJ3 Says In The BB that Editor John Newman Edwards was also Dr SYLVESTER Franklin James. J.N.E. is a Real Person.

Does Anyone Have Anything on the Character in the BB. Dr SYLVESTER Franklin James?

Kace

 

[L.C. BAKER]

I think "Character" sums it up for me. We can move on as far as I am concerned unless anyone has something of malice to add.

 

[Kace]

I think "Character" sums it up for me. We can move on as far as I am concerned unless anyone has something of malice to add.

Movin' On Then!!

Kace

 

[Kace]

Next up according to JJ3 in the BB..

In 1893, 11yrs After the shooting in St Joe, 3 men were sitting in a Private Railroad Coach at the Chicago Worlds Fair. The men were Jesse Woodson James, Buffalo Bill Cody, 48yrs old and His Bodyguard, Robert E. Lee.

Buffalo Bill refers to Lee as 'Bobby' and as a Young Man.

JWJ at that time is said to be One Year Older than Cody at 49y/o.

Kace

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Next up according to JJ3 in the BB..

In 1893, 11yrs After the shooting in St Joe, 3 men were sitting in a Private Railroad Coach at the Chicago Worlds Fair. The men were Jesse Woodson James, Buffalo Bill Cody, 48yrs old and His Bodyguard, Robert E. Lee.

Buffalo Bill refers to Lee as 'Bobby' and as a Young Man.

JWJ at that time is said to be One Year Older than Cody at 49y/o.

Kace

On October 9, 1893, the day designated as Chicago Day, the fair set a world record for outdoor event attendance, drawing 751,026 people. Is it possible that it was on that day and that those three famous men went unnoticed by that many gawking sightseers? I saw Bob Kerry and Debra Winger at the Nebraska State Fair and they could hardly walk through the crowd together without bodyguards making a path for them. I have to wonder how many miles from Chicago did that carriage have to go before they could get out of it without being recognized by someone? Did you know that Daniel H. Burnham, the foremost architect in Chicago, Illinois, was appointed the director of works for the 1893 world’s fair?

 

[Kace]

On October 9, 1893, the day designated as Chicago Day, the fair set a world record for outdoor event attendance, drawing 751,026 people. Is it possible that it was on that day and that those three famous men went unnoticed by that many gawking sightseers? I saw Bob Kerry and Debra Winger at the Nebraska State Fair and they could hardly walk through the crowd together without bodyguards making a path for them. I have to wonder how many miles from Chicago did that carriage have to go before they could get out of it without being recognized by someone? Did you know that Daniel H. Burnham, the foremost architect in Chicago, Illinois, was appointed the director of works for the 1893 world’s fair?
View attachment 1677815

I did not know that about Burnham until I started researching the fair when it came up in the book...Interesting...that guy was awesome in his work and a visionary a bit ahead of his time in some ways I think. I like his work a lot!

I have serious doubts that Buffalo Bill Cody especially could walk around in a crowd like that unnoticed since JJ3 says JWJ gave exhibitions in his shooting show during the 3 weeks he stayed with him. JJ3 says BB Cody talked JWJ out of revealing his identity there. I think people would of surrounded all of them.

Robert E. Lee: 1807-1870. THAT General Robert E. Lee would of been dead for 23yrs at the time of the fair. Kinda Let's Him Out, But he did have a Son Named Robert E. Lee, Jr.

Captain Robert 'Rob' Lee, Jr: 1843-1914. Jr went by Rob and would of been 50yrs old.. JJ3 specifically refers to him as 'Young Man' and 'Bobby. He had two daughters

Would a 48-49yr old man refer to a 50yr old as 'Young Man'?

According to Find A Grave...Jr inherited Romancock Plantation from his Grandfather Custis and retired there after the war. What I've read about him is he was a pretty quiet guy and the only one of the Generals sons who Didn't want to go into the war. He became a writer.

So, according to JJ3...28yrs after the war ended, he's a bodyguard for BB Cody if that's the RE Lee he's talking about. JJ3 doesn't use the ranks or designation of Sr or Jr in this part of the BB on either of the men.

Buffalo Bill Cody: 1846-1917. According to his birthday he would of been 46-47yrs old in 1893.

Evidently he set up his show on One City Block Adjacent To The Fair and it ran from April 26-October 31.

BBC's papers are in several different states at his namesake museums and ranches. I have not looked to see if they are online up until his death to see if RE Lee or JWJ is mentioned. I'm sure his show in Chicago would be discussed since it was so huge.

Kace

 

[sdcfia]

On October 9, 1893, the day designated as Chicago Day, the fair set a world record for outdoor event attendance, drawing 751,026 people. Is it possible that it was on that day and that those three famous men went unnoticed by that many gawking sightseers? I saw Bob Kerry and Debra Winger at the Nebraska State Fair and they could hardly walk through the crowd together without bodyguards making a path for them. I have to wonder how many miles from Chicago did that carriage have to go before they could get out of it without being recognized by someone? Did you know that Daniel H. Burnham, the foremost architect in Chicago, Illinois, was appointed the director of works for the 1893 world’s fair?
View attachment 1677815

1. Cody was certainly recognizable to many Exposition visitors, especially since his appearances were highly advertised in advance. In fact, there's no reason to believe Bill wasn't recognized innumerable times, even though he likely separated himself from the crowds as much as he could. In that photo, most all of the 700,000 gawkers likely only saw a sea of the backs of other peoples' heads.

2. James quite likely would not have been recognized at the Exposition if he was still alive then. Back in 1893, James was eleven years dead to most everyone who knew his history - old and likely forgotten news by then. Besides, nearly all people would not have known him from Adam. Hell, we're still arguing today about what the dude looked like.

3. The Lee character was 18 years old - allegedly born in 1875. This would make this guy a namesake - one of, I imagine, thousands with that name at the time.

Verdict on this particular BB claim: ¿Quién sabe?

 

[L.C. BAKER]

1. Cody was certainly recognizable to many Exposition visitors, especially since his appearances were highly advertised in advance. In fact, there's no reason to believe Bill wasn't recognized innumerable times, even though he likely separated himself from the crowds as much as he could. In that photo, most all of the 700,000 gawkers likely only saw a sea of the backs of other peoples' heads.

2. James quite likely would not have been recognized at the Exposition if he was still alive then. Back in 1893, James was eleven years dead to most everyone who knew his history - old and likely forgotten news by then. Besides, nearly all people would not have known him from Adam. Hell, we're still arguing today about what the dude looked like.

3. The Lee character was 18 years old - allegedly born in 1875. This would make this guy a namesake - one of, I imagine, thousands with that name at the time.

Verdict on this particular BB claim: [FONT=&]¿Quién sabe?[/FONT]

I mean to say, they were ALL together right? In the same carriage. To recognize Ol Buffalo Bill and not notice his companion would be a bit odd I think. Like you said he was VERY noticed where ever he went. I agree that nobody was looking for a dead man.

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

I sincerely doubt that the real JWJ would have been sitting in any rail car or coach talking pleasantries and planning shooting exhibitions with an Ex Union Spy......





And being as how JWJ/Dalton was supposedly also Senator W. A. Clark, seems odd he woulda been at the Chicago Worlds Fair talking shooting exhibitions with BBC for a couple of weeks when his wife just died in their home in New York....

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/49090440/katherine-louise-clark


Ya reckon?

 

[sdcfia]

I sincerely doubt that the real JWJ would have been sitting in any rail car or coach talking pleasantries and planning shooting exhibitions with an Ex Union Spy......


View attachment 1679766


And being as how JWJ/Dalton was supposedly also Senator W. A. Clark, seems odd he woulda been at the Chicago Worlds Fair talking shooting exhibitions with BBC for a couple of weeks when his wife just died in their home in New York....

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/49090440/katherine-louise-clark


Ya reckon?

I wouldn't take a hard stand one way or the other based on the fact that Cody was on the Union side as an 18-year old some 30 years prior to this alleged BB incident. Could an alleged still-breathing JJ have had some sort of association with him in the 1890s? Maybe, maybe not. As they say, "Politics creates strange bedfellows."

However, your pertinent info on Clark's wife's death implies to me that JJ and Senator Clark were two different people, which is certainly not a shock as I previously assumed this from the first time I read the BB. Since my working model is that the BB presents a message couched in outrageous allegations, the interest in Clark for me has to do with the question of whether he was associated in a covert alliance with other influential people in an Organization roughly analogous to some sort of "shadow government" back in the day.

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

I wouldn't take a hard stand one way or the other based on the fact that Cody was on the Union side as an 18-year old some 30 years prior to this alleged BB incident. Could an alleged still-breathing JJ have had some sort of association with him in the 1890s? Maybe, maybe not. As they say, "Politics creates strange bedfellows."

However, your pertinent info on Clark's wife's death implies to me that JJ and Senator Clark were two different people, which is certainly not a shock as I previously assumed this from the first time I read the BB. Since my working model is that the BB presents a message couched in outrageous allegations, the interest in Clark for me has to do with the question of whether he was associated in a covert alliance with other influential people in an Organization roughly analogous to some sort of "shadow government" back in the day.

While I understand your hesitance to ascribe patriotism to tha character being portrayed as JWJ in tha Black Book, attempts to apply tha same cynicism to tha real life personna of Jesse Woodson James reveals tha complete disconnect between tha Conspiracy Theorist and tha well documented historical record. Jesse held a deep personal hatred for anything Union, and Cody's complicity in tha Battle of Westport, tha decisive battle of Price’s Missouri Expedition and largest battle of tha Civil War fought west of tha Mississippi, would have precluded any friendship...period.

And yes, by now we are all aware of your "working model", thank you. But AGAIN, This Thread is attempting to establish Documented Facts, not "working models".

In tha real world, fact checking and JJ3's own contradicting statements in tha BB all appear to disprove any JWJ - Clark association. Just sayin.

 

[sdcfia]

While I understand your hesitance to ascribe patriotism to tha character being portrayed as JWJ in tha Black Book, attempts to apply tha same cynicism to tha real life personna of Jesse Woodson James reveals tha complete disconnect between tha Conspiracy Theorist and tha well documented historical record. Jesse held a deep personal hatred for anything Union, and Cody's complicity in tha Battle of Westport, tha decisive battle of Price’s Missouri Expedition and largest battle of tha Civil War fought west of tha Mississippi, would have precluded any friendship...period.

And yes, by now we are all aware of your "working model", thank you. But AGAIN, This Thread is attempting to establish Documented Facts, not "working models".

In tha real world, fact checking and JJ3's own contradicting statements in tha BB all appear to disprove any JWJ - Clark association. Just sayin.

I doubt this question can ever be conclusively answered. Assuming JJ was alive in 1893, you'd have a stronger argument that an alleged Chicago meeting between Bill Cody and JJ was impossible if you could "document" JJ's personal hatred for Cody the individual either before or after 1882. The "patriotism" net cast over all Yankees was undoubtedly valid at one time, but 30 years afterwards, feelings often change between former combatants. Remember, I'm a conspiracy analyst, not a theorist. You're the theorist on this point, based on JJ's reputation.

Re Clark, I thought I made my position clear. If not, I'll repeat it. Senator Clark and JJ were two separate humans.

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

I doubt this question can ever be conclusively answered. Assuming JJ was alive in 1893, you'd have a stronger argument that an alleged Chicago meeting between Bill Cody and JJ was impossible if you could "document" JJ's personal hatred for Cody the individual either before or after 1882. The "patriotism" net cast over all Yankees was undoubtedly valid at one time, but 30 years afterwards, feelings often change between former combatants. Remember, I'm a conspiracy analyst, not a theorist. You're the theorist on this point, based on JJ's reputation.

Re Clark, I thought I made my position clear. If not, I'll repeat it. Senator Clark and JJ were two separate humans.

What question is that?

I thought I made my position clear that JWJ had a deep personal hatred for "anything Union". Quite frankly I have seen no evidence that he ever met Cody. Have you? Have you seen any evidence JWJ ever befriended or had business dealings with a Union Spy, either before or after 1882? The historical record argues that he would not have. Anything else is just speculation, or in tha case of tha BB, pure fiction.

Yes, you have made your position very clear.

Over and over again.

 

[sdcfia]

What question is that?

I thought I made my position clear that JWJ had a deep personal hatred for "anything Union". Quite frankly I have seen no evidence that he ever met Cody. Have you? Have you seen any evidence JWJ ever befriended or had business dealings with a Union Spy, either before or after 1882? The historical record argues that he would not have. Anything else is just speculation, or in tha case of tha BB, pure fiction.

Yes, you have made your position very clear.

Over and over again.

Geez, this reminds me of "discussions" I used to have with my dad back in the 60s. I realize you've staked out a rather rigid personal position about all this stuff, and that's OK by me. I've got no dog in the fight myself except for a curiosity about the subject. We all are interested in the truth (I hope), but that's a damned elusive critter to track. Ha ha, just a month ago my partner found out she may as well throw her birth certificate in the trash as it was a lie. So much for documents. Go figure.

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

Geez, this reminds me of "discussions" I used to have with my dad back in the 60s. I realize you've staked out a rather rigid personal position about all this stuff, and that's OK by me. I've got no dog in the fight myself except for a curiosity about the subject. We all are interested in the truth (I hope), but that's a damned elusive critter to track. Ha ha, just a month ago my partner found out she may as well throw her birth certificate in the trash as it was a lie. So much for documents. Go figure.

I'll consider that a compliment, Son.

Beer?

 

[uglymailman]

Could Bill Cody and Jesse James met in a train car yrs. after Jesse's supposed death? Maybe. Could Wild Bill have walked through crowd's unnoticed? Probably not as his main deal as a Showman was to make his image as well know as possible. Perhaps Jesse could as he was supposed to be dead.
With due respect to Ol' Kentuck, not all vet's of The Unpleasantness Between the States had hard feelings for the other side, at least not years after the event. A LOT of them viewed the other guy as someone who had gone through what they had. Urich,MO. will have their 125th Reunion this year. Today it is mostly a time to get together with people that have roots there or have moved away, but 125 years ago it started as an encampment for the vets of that war, with both sides on the same campground. (I have a Lapel Pin that was probably worn at that reunion by a Union Officer who served in 8th and 17th KY. Vol. Calvary.) The same was true a few years later when Wm. Jennings Bryant went to Clinton,MO. (15 miles down the road) and a former Confederate Officer allowed vet's to camp on his property near the Park where Bryant spoke. Urich,MO. is about 3 miles from Cass County,MO., that fell under General Order 11 during the Civil War. That Order declared that anyone living more than a mile from the County Seat had to move. Most of those that moved had their homes burnt, crops destroyed and livestock either killed or confiscated by the Union troops to prevent aid to Parisian Rangers operating in the area. For several years after the war, the only remains of those homesteads where the chimneys that still stood that were dubbed "Tennisons Monuments" after the Kansas Redleg leader. Many homesteads where never rebuilt.
I'm not sure how the Partisan Rangers felt. I have read when they had THEIR reunions they prayed for Tennison and Sen. Jim Lane to burn in Hell.
There is also an account of Cole Younger when in Clinton,MO. with one of the Wild West shows being confronted on the town square and being called "Nothing but a damned secessionist" by a local citizen and Cole pulling a pistol before others could come between them and the citizen being hustled off to safer climes. Not everyone got along. Good luck.