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  1. #31

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Terry, good post.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    .... Fact... scientists have debunked LRLs in you guys' present form. Scientists, both private and government, have debunked dowsing,....
    But if you've been participating on forums discussions this long, don't you know the come-back lines ?? = "Un-discovered science". After all: Science once thought the earth was flat, right ? Or that heavier-than-air flight was impossible. Right ? Hence yes: LRL's and dowsing are "scientific". Albeit as-yet undiscovered. Tsk Tsk.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    .... .... yet your groups have (in summary) said, "Screw science, you "gotta believe" to get it to work. ...
    Again I will beat them to the punch-line: "Well so too do you 'have to believe' (so to speak) in metal detecting , or any other skill or sport too". Example: If you're having a bad day, & aren't concentrating, mind wandering, you will do bad at detecting. You will not hear the whispers. Or like sports athletes : They put a lot of mind psychology into their training as well. LOTS of things in like rely on psychosomatic influences (how well/fast you heal, etc....). If ANYONE goes out there with a p*ss-p**r attituded when md'ing, they too will likewise get tromped by the seasoned hardcore positive enthusiast md'r. Why then the double standard for LRL & dowsing ? tsk tsk.


    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    .... ....other than subjective testimonials ...
    Terry terry terry, don't you see your contradiction ? You tell them "show & proof" and "put it to the test", and "show results". BUT THE MINUTE ANY OF THEM relay results, then guess what you do ?? You turn around and 'diss it as "subjective testimonials". Do you see your contradiction ? Tsk tsk.


    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    .... ....I have never heard of one of you following a double blind test to a positive fruition. ...
    Well that's because any double blind test done or planned is unfair. They're rigged. The testers make it impossible to perform in-some-way. And let's be honest: When you go md'ing, do you *always* find a cool silver coin or gold coin each time you go out ? Of course not ! So too is the same for LRL/Dowsing. Why the double standard ?

    Same for anything in life: A golfer will not always hit a hole in one, right ? So when you demand of the golfer "show me a hole in one", and he can't lickety split show you, does that mean it's not true ? Of course not. And if you never golf, you will never hit a hole in one. So too with LRL: There is to be expected some misses. Just like sometimes Terry digs a pulltab instead of a gold coin, eh? Tsk tsk Terry. Get with the show.

    I think I'd make a better dowser/ LRL proponent than even the adherents themselves, eh ?
    TerryC likes this.

  2. #32
    Charter Member
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    Jun 2008
    Yarnell, AZ
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    Sorry Tom, I didn't realize the mere mention of the name Hitler would put you in such a tizzy! (deflection). Even the law of probabilities says SOMEONE will "hit the mark". Yet probability still has a consistent, repeatable outcome. Dowsing has been around for hundreds of years. Hundreds of years of faith must mean it is true. Right? Now MDing...... I have been detecting for decades. Reputable producers of detectors have PROVEN their machines work. The leaders can back up their advertised claims with tangible results. I can prove they work even though I wouldn't know their schematic from a toaster's. No, I've never detected a gold coin, an escudo, or old Roman coins, but others have! I'm beginning to ramble but...... but....... BINGO! That would sound like the LRL forums here, me thinks. ╦╦Ç
    Tom_in_CA likes this.
    Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you’re not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. ‘Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That’s just the way it is. – Josey Wales

  3. #33

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    .... I didn't realize the mere mention of the name Hitler would put you in such a tizzy! (deflection)....
    Huh ? I didn't see the name Hitler" anywhere. Must've missed it ha!

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    ... Even the law of probabilities says SOMEONE will "hit the mark". ...
    Uh, so this is along the lines of : "If you dig enough holes around enough likely lookie ruins, you will eventually find a goodie", right ? Esp. when using a detector to "pinpoint" (that's the ticket). After all, history is FILLED with persons who accidentally stumble onto goodies. Ie.: const. workers, ditch diggers, farmers with plow, etc.. Hence HOW MUCH MORE SO the person going out with the intent and purpose, eh ? And sure, dig around enough likely looking ruins and so forth, yes, you'll eventually find something. And presto, it was the coat hanger that did it, right ?

    But the faithful will dismiss this. They will say that they do not dig "dry holes". And they will say their odds are better than random chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    ....Dowsing has been around for hundreds of years. Hundreds of years of faith must mean it is true. Right? ...
    Yes, I've heard this many time. Eg.: that if it didn't work, then how come it's 100's or 1000's of years old ? But this is fairly easy to debunk: So too did primitive cultures use witch doctors and throw virgins into volcanoes in order to control the weather, right ? Hence those practices must therefore be true , eh ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    .... Reputable producers of detectors have PROVEN their machines work. The leaders can back up their advertised claims with tangible results...
    Well, to be the devil's advocate here: SO TOO can the LRL/dowsers "back up their claims". They too can show you results of goodies found. After all, haven't you seen the various advertisements of guys posing next to a jar of silver coins they found with the devices ? And after all "photographs don't lie". So there. tsk tsk.
    TerryC likes this.

  4. #34
    Charter Member
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    Jun 2008
    Yarnell, AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Huh ? I didn't see the name Hitler" anywhere. Must've missed it ha!



    Uh, so this is along the lines of : "If you dig enough holes around enough likely lookie ruins, you will eventually find a goodie", right ? Esp. when using a detector to "pinpoint" (that's the ticket). After all, history is FILLED with persons who accidentally stumble onto goodies. Ie.: const. workers, ditch diggers, farmers with plow, etc.. Hence HOW MUCH MORE SO the person going out with the intent and purpose, eh ? And sure, dig around enough likely looking ruins and so forth, yes, you'll eventually find something. And presto, it was the coat hanger that did it, right ?

    But the faithful will dismiss this. They will say that they do not dig "dry holes". And they will say their odds are better than random chance.



    Yes, I've heard this many time. Eg.: that if it didn't work, then how come it's 100's or 1000's of years old ? But this is fairly easy to debunk: So too did primitive cultures use witch doctors and throw virgins into volcanoes in order to control the weather, right ? Hence those practices must therefore be true , eh ?



    Well, to be the devil's advocate here: SO TOO can the LRL/dowsers "back up their claims". They too can show you results of goodies found. After all, haven't you seen the various advertisements of guys posing next to a jar of silver coins they found with the devices ? And after all "photographs don't lie". So there. tsk tsk.
    WOW! Did I say all that? May have invoked Hitler's name from a different post. Actually, I could have said it better than you, or Carl-NC, but not being a heavy hitter, my response here would not have been taken serious enough. ╦╦Ç
    Tom_in_CA likes this.
    Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you’re not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. ‘Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That’s just the way it is. – Josey Wales

  5. #35
    us
    Jan 2012
    Haines City, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dell Winders View Post
    Attachment 1438786

    NOT FOR SALE
    X-SCAN (Experimental) Remote sensing, multi discriminating Long Range Locator (LRL)prototype, with Laser attachment and wireless" Weight Chek"

    100% Pure Physics No batteries, No wires, No electronics

    Hand held, lightweight, highly directional, and non visual. You actually "Feel" when the X-Scan locks on the " Field" of a discriminated target, even blindfolded.

    Range: Up to 60 + meters

    Depth: X-Scan does not measure target depth It detects the emamating "Field" of a target above the ground, or water surface. The target can be at any depth as long as the Emanating "Field" is not blocked and rises to and above the surface. The "Field" of a freshly buried target on the surface, or a couple of inches in depth can usually be detected immediately. A target buried 1 foot in depth may take up to a week for the "Field" to reach the surface and be detectable. Deeper buried targets take much longer to be detectable. Weeks, months, or years, depending on the depth, soil, and atmospheric conditions. Both MFD and HID discriminating LRL's are applications to the same physics and subject to the same limitations whether they are electronic, or non-electronic.

    The deepest I have detected with the X-Scan, or MFD devices, and recorded with electronic Geophysical instruments is a Silver Vein, 20 meters below the ground surface.
    There are a couple of simple methods to determine the approximate target depth that can be learned.

    Simple, Easy to use, hand held, light weight, highly directional, multi target element discrimination. It works according to a proven theory of MAGNETIC RESONANCE (MR) and HARMONIC INDUCTION DISCRIMINATION (HID)

    X-SCAN, prototypes are nothing new. I have been experimenting, conducting scientific double blind tests, and field tests with this concept for more than 10 years. I placed the first Frequency Discriminating LRL (MFD) concept on the market in 1986 after 6 years of experimenting, testing, and personal use. There are now manufacturers of this proven basic concept (with Treasure finds) throughout the world, so I have a precedented comparison to guide me. A few Treasure Hunters have purchased my earlier X-Scan, prototypes to conduct their own experiments and provided me their personal feedback and suggestions. Their feedback has proven to be very beneficial.

    Vindictive critics have attacked me viciously for the past 27 years with determined effort to put me out of business, ruin a lifelong reputation of honesty, and silence my voice. This post may give a few cause to renew their efforts. So be it.

    Admittedly, in my own mind, I am amazed and logically what myself, and others have experienced with the multi-element Discrimination abilities of the X-Scan concept do not seem possible. For example. detecting and tracing buried PVC water pipe, or discriminating between the ink and dyes of modern US currency, and 1800's vintage Confederate currency, from a distance. Because of my own skepticism of this possibility I don't intend to make any advertising claims of the X-Scan's abilities, if any, but I will post in the future what appears to be happening.

    It is my strong belief that with the addition of electronics and imaging software this concept will be the future of all Geophysical instruments

    X-SCAN, Explanation (photo)
    The Black object in the photo is an attachable Laser Pointer. (optional) It serves to point a Red beam pointing to within 5 inches of the target
    It also appears that it may act as a carrier wave and better defines the target

    The module near the handle is the Resonance chamber. Samples of the searched for target is placed in this chamber. Unlike electronic Frequency Discrimination (MFD) that only discriminates onr element at a time, HID appears to have the ability to detect and discriminate to specific combined elements that may be contained in a target. For example, Pharmaceuticals.

    The White box pictured below the X-Scan, is the "WEIGHT CHEK". It doesn't actually measure the weight of the target, but serves to help measure the volume of the emanating magnetic field that surrounds the target and can be nulled out in increments of volume with the dial. By comparing with an object of known weight, the weight of the unseen target can be estimated. This is an extremely helpful tool in the field when analyzing the potential of a target and eliminating digging unnecessary holes. It has been used for years with the PRO-4 model, and by Dowsers, which required a connecting wire from the L-Rods to the WC. It would remotely null out up to 5 lbs, of solid target weight, or up to 2 ounces of Micron particles, sulphide and oxidation which resonates strongly.
    The WC, I am working on now requires no batteries or attached wires and the present model nulls out by volume, up to 20 lbs of solid target weight, and about 2 ounces of Micron particles, Sulphide, or Oxidation.

    Thanks for reading. Dell
    Boot

  6. #36

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Dell, something is wrong. In this post #35, you have a dizzying array of high-sounding scientific technical jargon. Suggesting that you know how it works.

    But in Post #18, you say you don't know how it works. Eh ?

  7. #37
    Charter Member
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    Jun 2008
    Yarnell, AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Dell, something is wrong. In this post #35, you have a dizzying array of high-sounding scientific technical jargon. Suggesting that you know how it works.

    But in Post #18, you say you don't know how it works. Eh ?
    I appreciate your lengthy response. But I have a problem with your use of the term(s) .... proven theory..... of .....harmonic induction discrimination. Please direct me to the scientific definition of "harmonic induction discrimination". The only reference available (as I can see) of the term is unique to your written publications. Correct me if I'm wrong but I see no scientific use of the term "harmonic induction discrimination" except in publications authored by you, or publications debunking your product (i.e. questioning the term harmonic induction discrimination). ╦╦Ç
    Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you’re not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. ‘Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That’s just the way it is. – Josey Wales

  8. #38

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    I appreciate your lengthy response. But I have a problem with your use of the term(s) .... proven theory..... of .....harmonic induction discrimination. Please direct me to the scientific definition of "harmonic induction discrimination". The only reference available (as I can see) of the term is unique to your written publications. Correct me if I'm wrong but I see no scientific use of the term "harmonic induction discrimination" except in publications authored by you, or publications debunking your product (i.e. questioning the term harmonic induction discrimination). ╦╦Ç
    What are you talking about? The more High sounding technical scientific words that are used, the more true it must be.

  9. #39
    Charter Member
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    Come out from under your bed today...... DO SOMETHING!

    Jun 2008
    Yarnell, AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    What are you talking about? The more High sounding technical scientific words that are used, the more true it must be.
    Sorry, Tom. My question(s) about recent phrases was not directed at you. In fact, I would have responded sooner but certain "scientific" phrases is causing my computer to cough up blood trying to come up with rebuttal. "Proven"... theory...? Isn't that a contradiction of terms? I am going to back off for awhile.... this is all making me really dizzy! ╦╦Ç
    Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you’re not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. ‘Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That’s just the way it is. – Josey Wales

  10. #40

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    Sorry, Tom. My question(s) about recent phrases was not directed at you....
    I knew it wasn't directed at me. I knew it was directed at the LRL of this O.P. thread. And I was saying that .... most certainly .... when $20 words like that start getting thrown around, it must be true

    It's known as "blinded by science". If you start talking very technical jargon, then your hearers will think "gee, he must know what he's talking about".
    TerryC likes this.

  11. #41

    Aug 2016
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Gentlemen, may I interrupt this episode of the Tom and Terry Show for a moment please, thank you.

    It has been my experience through observation, that when someone constantly belittles others, it's generally due to their own feelings of inferiority. Be it through virtual cyber bullying on a public forum, or through videos made by enticing others under the guise of "documenting" their stories, when in truth they are made with the intention of disproving them. Either way, it's a sad commentary.

    Mr. Winders has graciously attempted to share his invention with others of like interest. He is not selling anything to anyone. He is not being disruptive, or insisting that anyone accept his design or theory of operation.

    And in case you haven't noticed, he is not consenting to your projected inferiorities. You are obviously wasting not only your time, but ours as interested parties, as well.

    I'd thank you to cease and desist this activity, and perhaps save yourselves further public humiliation. But, of course, as with us all, the choice is yours to make.


    Best Wishes,
    Dit
    Dell Winders likes this.

  12. #42
    Charter Member
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    Jun 2008
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    Tom and Terry show, Dit? Touché! I have not "belittled" anyone. I would have been banned. The U S DoJ has declared LRLs a fraud, but I have not. I DO question their veracity. I have seen videos debunking LRLs. I have never seen one proving they work. Dell's "invention" does not have a patent. A patent requires a product be fully explained and DO something. (I do not think ANY LRL has a U S patent). Treasurenet's LRL forum is as legitimate as are all the other forums here. This particular forum hosts HOTTLY debated opinions. Do not tell me I cannot voice mine. And... I've been called some pretty vulgar things but never... inferior (blush). ╦╦Ç
    Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you’re not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. ‘Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That’s just the way it is. – Josey Wales

  13. #43

    Aug 2016
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    What is there to " HOTTLY " debate, Mr. C? Nowhere do I see the OP making any grand claims, only offering a brief overview of a device he has put together, and his personal opinion of how he believes it works. If you see no value in the device, or his theory of its operation, then fine. Discard it and carry on.

    As to the DoJ citing LRLs as Fraud, US law defining fraud as "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain", again.... Nowhere do I see Mr. Winders attempting to SELL anything. He has plainly pointed out that the device is experimental. Now, if experimenting should fall under the auspices of the DoJ, please follow up with the proper documentation to support such a claim, and I will gladly step aside. Otherwise, I see no reason other than self promotion for this continued badgering of a fellow poster.

    And thank you, but I pass on consenting to the gift of your insecurities as well. You'll have to find some other way to deal with them.


    Best Wishes,
    Dit
    Dell Winders likes this.

  14. #44
    Charter Member
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    Jul 2006
    Orlando, Fl
    Minelab_Equinox_ 800 Minelab_CTX-3030 Minelab_Excal_1000 Minelab_Sovereign_GT Minelab_Safari Minelab_ETrac Whites_Beach_Hunter_ID Fisher_1235_X
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    Dell and other members in our LRL forum have a right to post with out being attacked, hounded, ridiculed or challenged over their hobby or choice of equipment.

    Discussion is allowed as long as there are no attacks, insults, or members are not hounded, ridiculed or challenged for their beliefs.

    Sent from my P008 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Treasure_Hunter; Jun 09, 2017 at 06:32 AM.
    Ditlihi and TerryC like this.
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  15. #45
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    Nov 2011
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    "They shall wail and gnash their teeth outside the gates..." I'm not here to support the L-rod locators and I know there are some frauds out there. At the same time I don't like to see misinformation. Anybody here wants to search you won't find anything at the Department of Justice. So is this "fake news" intentional? I gotta believe so. I'll stop there.
    If your heart is in it you will find a thousand ways to achieve your goal.
    If your heart is not in it you will find a thousand excuses.

    Ouija Board and map dowsing , one and the same. Just tape a map onto the Ouija Board and you have map dowsing.
    Works great if you like wild goose chases and snipe hunts!

    My new motto: L-rods are obsolete.

    Like Cappy sings with his harmonica, "We're all gonna die, but not tonight."

    May you never take one single breath for granted.

 

 
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