Welcome guest, is this your first visit?
Member
Discoveries
 
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 26 of 26
  1. #16
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    6,986
    6303 times

    Re: Two Lost Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    Roy & Beth,

    Wells Fargo never ran a stagecoach line in Arizona. Any coach that was robbed, was from another commercial line.

    My source was "Wells Fargo in Arizona Teerritory" by John and Lillian Theobald. It was published by the ARIZONA HISTORICAL FOUNDATION, TEMPE, 1978.

    It's always possible they were wrong but their research was extensive.

    Take care,

    Joe
    Isn't that peculiar? There are numerous references to Wells, Fargo & Company throughout the territorial newspapers, including that brief notice about Mr Adams being appointed Agent for them, to "accept packages" at Date Creek. The Historical Atlas lists four different stage companies which passed through Date Creek, Southern Pacific Mail, California and Arizona, Arizona Stage Co, and Gilmer, Salisbury & Co as operating before 1880; could Wells Fargo have been operating through contract carriers? That might explain the use of Agents, while not having any of their own (proprietary) stages. And yet there are many articles which seem to be directly pointing at Wells Fargo. Here is one rather interesting article (if this works to post it, have to do it in pieces)








    <Arizona citizen. (Tucson, A.T.) June 27, 1879, page 4>

    If this article is readable, you can see that they mention Wells Fargo as being the target of robberies being perpetrated in Arizona, that the head of Wells Fargo is involved directly in this particular case - which is very odd if they were not doing business in Arizona in any way. How could they be robbed, why would a criminal case bother to contact the head of the company and many other queer questions arise.

    I do not mean to cast aspersions on the research done by your sources <Theobalds> but there are many seeming contradictions about this. The only logical explanation I can come up with is that Wells Fargo was doing business in Arizona Territory but through contract stage companies rather than their own. That is pure speculation on my part but would explain how they are so frequently involved in news accounts yet "officially" not be running any stages themselves.

    Roy



    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  2. #17
    us
    Jan 2008
    Black Hills of South Dakota
    Tesoro Lobo & Garrett Stinger
    4,311
    286 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Two Lost Adams

    Joe,

    I, too, have resources about Wells Fargo - and, in your source (and others) Wells Fargo is not specifically named as having stage routes there.

    However, Wells Fargo, did, indeed have stages.(in Arizona) They contracted and ran for others, (specifically under the Butterfield name, as they were partners and funded part of their business) and, if you go to Wells Fargo own site, you will find this: (and I find it funny that the entrance is on Adams Street).


    From the Wells Fargo's own site:

    For most of Wells Fargo's staging history, independent locally-run stage lines carried the express. These stagelines advertised in their town’s business directories and newspapers, which are usually available at state and county historical societies and special libraries.

    Much of the little local stagecoaches were paid and run by Wells Fargo drivers, and most, were billed BY Wells Fargo.

    It is the equivalent of you selling a certain persons wheelchairs, even though you aren't the 'factory owner', or the Post Office having contract mail carriers, (like Roy) but they are still under the the USPS, because, ultimately, that's where the paycheck comes from.

    Beth






    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	wells fargo tombstone.jpg 
Views:	522 
Size:	49.8 KB 
ID:	583493   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Wells Fargo, 1881.jpg 
Views:	1344 
Size:	252.0 KB 
ID:	583498   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	XTombProsWellsfargoAd1.jpg 
Views:	573 
Size:	74.5 KB 
ID:	583499  
    "Irony is the rule"

  3. #18

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,478
    4423 times

    Re: Two Lost Adams

    Roy,

    "I do not mean to cast aspersions on the research done by your sources <Theobalds> but there are many seeming contradictions about this. The only logical explanation I can come up with is that Wells Fargo was doing business in Arizona Territory but through contract stage companies rather than their own. That is pure speculation on my part but would explain how they are so frequently involved in news accounts yet "officially" not be running any stages themselves."

    That is very good speculation indeed, and is exactly what took place. Wells Fargo, once again, never ran their coaches in Arizona. They placed their strongboxs on "contract stage companies" coaches.

    I don't take your, or Beth's, doubts personally, as it's a common myth. My source was as good as it gets, IMHO.

    Take care,

    Joe

    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  4. #19
    us
    Jan 2008
    Black Hills of South Dakota
    Tesoro Lobo & Garrett Stinger
    4,311
    286 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Two Lost Adams

    I think we are doing a bit of nit-picking.

    However, on that same vein - Wells Fargo did, indeed have their own "coaches" - which were built, specifically for them, and numbered, by the
    Carriage builder J. Stephens Abbot and master wheelwright Lewis Downing, who built the famed stagecoaches of Wells Fargo & Co.

    Wells Fargo had over 700 of these Wells Fargo stagecoaches built, including some that were used in Arizona, by Butterfield Stage.

    So, technically, they did have coaches in use.


    Beth
    "Irony is the rule"

  5. #20

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,478
    4423 times

    Re: Two Lost Adams

    Beth,

    My source for "no Wells Fargo coaches in Arizona" was Dr. Robert J. Chandleer, Senior Research Historian for Wells Fargo Bank. That was one of the facts that he told me in a personal phone call a number of years ago.

    Another piece of information from him, was that Wells Fargo did not ship ore by statecoach, only bullion and coin. Later on, when the railroad was completed into Arizona, they shipped ore east, I believe he said to Kansas City........ for sure.

    Sure it's "nit-picking". Bad habit of mine. Hope you will forgive me.

    Take care,

    Joe
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  6. #21
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    6,986
    6303 times

    Re: Two Lost Adams

    Cactusjumper wrote
    My source for "no Wells Fargo coaches in Arizona" was Dr. Robert J. Chandleer, Senior Research Historian for Wells Fargo Bank. That was one of the facts that he told me in a personal phone call a number of years ago.

    Another piece of information from him, was that Wells Fargo did not ship ore by statecoach, only bullion and coin. Later on, when the railroad was completed into Arizona, they shipped ore east, I believe he said to Kansas City........ dontknow for sure.

    Sure it's "nit-picking". Bad habit of mine. Hope you will forgive me.
    I realize that your reply was addressed to Beth, but as we are all on the same subject and you have raised two issues I am taking the liberty to respond - not to speak in Beth's place, as I am sure she can speak for herself.

    At the risk of drifting ever farther off-topic here, I am a bit surprised at the rather sweeping statements of Dr Chandler. Firstly in that Wells Fargo was running stagecoaches in the period 1866 to 1869 under their own ownership, and apparently in Arizona so to say they never had stage operations in AZ is puzzling. Secondly as to not shipping ore by stage, is this a possible word definition problem? The are plenty of sources which could refute this, and I have yet another issue due to the fact that I also had talked to Dr Chandler; he had been 'primed' by a previous communication and responded to my question about any records for Arizona by saying that they had no records of Jacob Waltz shipping gold, which I had not (yet) asked. He also explained that they have NO records for the frontier period at all. So how can any statement be made, concerning what was, or what was NOT shipped? I would think that the stage might choose not to ship ore due to weight and space limitations aboard the average Concord coach, yet how would ore concentrates be classed? I have some documentary evidence of gold dust being shipped, which is not bullion, and strongly suspect that where we find actual records of Wells Fargo shipments of "bullion" it is referring to the bullion value of what was being carried and not refined precious metals specifically.

    A quick peek online turns up a number of sources, the Engineering and Mining Journal 1879 is online and mentions Wells Fargo several times as shipping ores; the Congressional Edition for 1889 is online at http://books.google.com/books?id=DUBHAQAAIAAJ

    <extract from page 141>
    "Castle Dome district. The principal mines were practically idle during 1887. The amount of ore reported as shipped appears to have been about 12 tons carrying $840 silver and 60 per cent lead. Handsome specimens of fluorspar and of molybdate of lead are often found. Considerable placer mining was done the placers being worked with dry washers the gold being unusually coarse and pure most of which was shipped through Wells Fargo & Co's express at Yuma and the balance by private conveyance "

    So I have to respectfully disagree with Dr Chandler's statements based on alternate sources, especially in light of the fact that Wells Fargo today has NO records on which to base such conclusions. It seems logical that ore concentrates as mentioned in the Congressional Record were in fact being shipped by Wells Fargo express, on stages at least until the freight could be transferred to trains or steamboats, as concentrates would be fairly compact both in weight and bulk and might be called either "bullion" based on the value contained and as "ore" being that it was still not fully refined.

    As to how this relates to the Two Lost Adams, I am at a loss.
    Roy

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  7. #22
    us
    Jan 2008
    Black Hills of South Dakota
    Tesoro Lobo & Garrett Stinger
    4,311
    286 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Two Lost Adams

    Joe,

    By now, you should know that I LOVE debating. It is good for the brain, the soul and, often leads to new discoveries of information etc.

    This subject - like many others - consists of more than one person, talking to more than one person, and getting different answers. (I have the twitch of familiarity). It is, however, uncanny that the same person is involved in two versions of possible information. (and funny that you both should pursue the same man).

    On that note - I'm off to forage for dinner. Pasta, anyone

    Beth
    "Irony is the rule"

  8. #23
    no
    Mar 2010
    Republic of Texas
    486
    857 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Two Lost Adams

    The below was taken from a link given by 'natchitoches' (http://mines.az.gov/Rec_Ed/museums.html) on the 'Bulldog Mine' subject.
    Funny how things tie up ...
    Wells Fargo History Museum - Phoenix
    A small, well executed museum located in Wells Fargo's downtown Phoenix complex. Historical displays depict Wells Fargo's presence in Arizona. It includes many interesting exhibits concerning Arizona history and mining. Open weekdays from 9:00 am - 5:00 pm. Free. Located north of the main lobby at 145 West Adams, Phoenix, AZ 85003. Phone: 602-378-1852
    A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine

  9. #24

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,478
    4423 times

    Re: Two Lost Adams

    Per,

    It's a fact that Wells Fargo was in Arizona in the 1800s, but they did not run their own coaches. They had "agencies" all over Arizona, but they only took the "freight" in. They used other commercial lines to ship it out.

    Beth,

    I believe I told Roy my source a number of years ago. It's no surprise that Dr. Chandler knew immediately what Roy was after. He had been kind enough to call me after I sent him an email.
    We talked for quite awhile and I was more than satisfied that he knew what he was talking about.

    Glad to hear that Roy got exactly the same history from him. Sorry to hear he had doubts about its accuracy. That's what makes the world go round.

    I agree with you, in that the more we debate these details, the more we will learn. Who knows what might shake out.

    Take care,

    Joe
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  10. #25
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    6,986
    6303 times

    Re: Two Lost Adams

    Cactusjumper wrote
    Sorry to hear he had doubts about its accuracy
    Well, one could not help but have suspicions when a person "guesses" what is to be asked about, when in fact I was interested in any or all records and was what I intended to ask, <and did> for I do not focus my efforts solely on the Lost Dutchman. I have since found fairly good alternate sources including a report done by Wells Fargo on stage robberies. But when Dr Chandler pointed out that they have NO records at all, not just Waltz related, how can any statement be made as to what was or was not shipped? Any statement made would be a guess.

    As to how to tie this back to the topic, if the Henry Adams of the story and Henry Adams of Date Creek are the same man, I wonder when Henry left Date Creek for Ft Defiance, and why? I saw that he had been appointed postmaster but had failed to qualify - a rather strange thing, but considering the pay at 30 cents a year (according to the newspaper) perhaps he was not interested. I found another article which mentioned that the Army post trading would be opened to all US citizens, so perhaps that was an incentive - just speculating of course. As Ft Defiance was an Army post on the Navajo reservation it seems that it would be a small step to open business for the soldiers and quickly branch out into trading with the Indians, even if not following the rules which demanded a rather large monetary bond for a license.

    Oroblanco

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  11. #26

    Dec 2004
    136
    15 times
    Quote Originally Posted by mrs.oroblanco View Post
    I think we are doing a bit of nit-picking.

    However, on that same vein - Wells Fargo did, indeed have their own "coaches" - which were built, specifically for them, and numbered, by the
    Carriage builder J. Stephens Abbot and master wheelwright Lewis Downing, who built the famed stagecoaches of Wells Fargo & Co.

    Wells Fargo had over 700 of these Wells Fargo stagecoaches built, including some that were used in Arizona, by Butterfield Stage.

    So, technically, they did have coaches in use.


    Beth
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Butterfield Book a.jpg 
Views:	421 
Size:	300.8 KB 
ID:	621341

    In 1850 John Butterfield, Wells, and Fargo (as well as others) started the American Express Company in Upstate New York. The owners of this company each had their own assigned routes in New York State and through the Ohio Valley. When the contract that came up for the transcontinental route in 1857, it was John Butterfield that won the contract. The only thing that Wells and Fargo had to do with it is that they loaned him the money for it. John Butterfield was the organizer and president of this line and Wells and Fargo had nothing to do with the organization until he got into financial trouble near the end and Wells&Fargo took it over when it was moved to the central route . A reading of the contract and his instructions to his employees shows this.
    John Butterfield was the designer and builder of the Celerity Stagecoach that was used exclusively in Arizona and the southwest. It was used because it was much easier to drag through the heavy sand as it was much lighter. There are less than ten images of the Overland Mail Company in Arizona. They show this much lighter Celerity Stagecoach being pulled by wild mule. Butterfield used mostly wild mules and some wild horses in Arizona. During the time of the Overland Mail Company's service of September 1858 to March 1861 no Concord or Troy style stagecoaches were used.
    There were no stage lines in Arizona after Butterfield closed down in March 1861 until early in 1867. It was after this that Wells&Fargo started to move into Arizona. The population of Arizona increased significantly then and the use of the heavier stagecoaches such as the Concord and Troy came into use.
    None of Butterfield's stagecoaches exist in Arizona. On March 2, 1861, the Overland Mail Company was given orders to move all equipment (stagecoaches), employees, and livestock to the central route.
    It is interesting to note that no Butterfield Stagecoach was ever held up in Arizona. Only once was a stagecoach attacked by Indians (February 1861 in Apache Pass) and that failed to stop the stagecoach.
    The National Park Service is working on making the trail a National Historic Trail by 2014. For the past two years I have been in contact with them to sort out the much erroneous information about the Butterfield Overland Mail Company.
    the image is from my recently published book on the subject The Butterfield Trail and Overland Mail Company in Arizona, 1858-1861.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Butterfield Stagecoach.JPG 
Views:	280 
Size:	307.5 KB 
ID:	621340  

 

 
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

adams aztec lec me
,
adams lost mine
,
adams, chandler & co new york
,
butterfield overland mail trail
,
butterfield photo wells fargo
,
gold in chuska mountains
,
henry adams, aztec gold
,
lost adams gold mine
,

maricopa wells

,

navajo reservation treasure gold

Click on a term to search for related topics.
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.3.0