New twist on the LDM.

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

I expected my comments would cause a little dust-up, as I realize there are a lot of fans for this kind of.....stuff. Most of them never read the reports of when Cayce was wrong, only when he guessed right. He made thousands of guesses'.

As I said, it was just my opinion.

Before you decide if he was describing Storm's Cactus Marker, you need to read page 75 in the book, and then go over what Cayce said again. The marker is not what was covered over but the LDM.

I am not really seriously considering this argument, so don't make a big deal out of my comments. For the most part, I am just having a good time with it. I respect Mike's work, but felt a little teasing was in order over his statement. I hope he took it in that manner, rather than as an insult.

You are surly right....Cayce must have been talking about another cactus marker in Needle Canyon with four stones embedded in it. They probably just left out the part about it being hidden.

Joe

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[e=Springfield
A true prophet must be right [b]every[/b] time. Otherwise, he is a false prophet making guesses. ..
*************
Based upon this has there ever been a true prophet? Or is it simply that we have consistantly mis read their data?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

, IMHO, as I believe the truth of the LDM is most likely completely off the radar from the accepted dogma.
*************
Agreed 100%, even Tayopa is saturated with this type of thing. This is why no-one else ever found it for almost 400 years. I had to overturn the present tline of thinking and data to find it.

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

[cactusjumper]

This Psychic Reading given by Edgar Cayce at the office of the Association, Arctic Crescent, Virginia Beach, Va., this 1st day of February, 1944, in accordance with request made by the self - Mr. [ 3638 ], new Associate Member of the Ass'n for Research & Enlightenment, Inc., recommended by Coronet.
Present: Edgar Cayce; Gertrude Cayce, Conductor; Gladys Davis, Steno. [ 3638 ] and Harmon Bro.
Time: 4:30 to 4:45 P. M. Eastern War Time. TEXT

GC: (Gertrude Cayce) You will have before you [ 3638 ] present in this room, and his enquiring mind, together with the << gold mine>> discovered by Pedro Peralta and later worked by Jacob Walz know as "The << Dutchman>> ," in Pinal County, in the central portion of the State of Arizona. There you will find a high peak known as "La Sombrera" or "Weavers Needle". In Needle Canyon, a canyon running north from the base of the peak, you will find a large Saquaro cactus, marked, or that has been marked by four stones stuck into the trunk. From this marker, you will tell us exactly how far and in which direction to go to find the << gold mine>> now known as "The << Dutchman>> ," describing in detail all landmarks from this marker leading directly to the << mine>> . You will then answer the questions, as I ask them:

You will notice the part I placed in bold above.

Cayce was given all of the information concerning the location of the Cactus Marker by Gertrude Cayce who received the information from "Mr. [ 3638 ]". Cayce gave an "uninformed" description of the terrain, because he could not "see" it, and had never been there.

I was mistaken when I said that Cayce described the Stone Marker. Actually Gertrude gave the description which she got from [3638], who obviously had an interest in the LDM.

I realize this will do nothing to diminish the faith of the faithful, but facts seldom do.
That's why it's called..... faith.

Am I all wet here, or does anyone else see this story still holding water.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

One last post on Edgar Cayce.

I have read and seen a great deal about the man, but I never blindly accepted everything I read or saw. As an "inquiring mind", I would seek out both sides of the subject. I did much the same with blindbowman's Aztec pictographs. In that case, I tried to see if any of the known pictographs could be applied to the Superstition Mountains, and more to the point, the LDM. There did not seem to be any way to connect them.

Here is just a small sample of the other side of Edgar Cayce:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edgar Cayce ( 1877-1945) was one of the world's most famous psychic/ healer-mediums. He reportedly had many visions even while still a young boy. By the time he reached his sixteenth birthday, he allegedly possessed an "uncanny ability to prescribe remedies for illnesses." Cayce's journey into the world of occultism began in 1900 when he mysteriously lost his voice (note the similarity to Scallion's story), "but regained it temporarily under hypnotic trance. When speaking under hypnosis, he diagnosed his own trouble and cured himself by posthypnotic suggestion."

He eventually used this "gift" to diagnose and cure others. His patients did not even need to be present for him to discern their problem. Cayce would simply enter a trance and be able to see them wherever they were residing. The only thing Cayce needed to have from a patient was their name and address. He would then fall "asleep," spiritually "travel" to their location, examine them, and prescribe a remedy for their malady. Thus he earned his famous title: "The Sleeping Prophet." Cayce could supposedly also read auras, describe a person's past life, and see into the future.

Most of Cayce's trance-induced "readings" were not only transcribed and preserved, but catalogued and stored at his Association for Research and Enlightenment (A.R.E.) in Virginia Beach, Virginia (founded, 1931). Included among these readings are a number of statements that foretell devastating global disasters. Although numerous psychics since Cayce (e.g., Scallion) have made similar predictions about cataclysmic earth changes involving widespread natural disasters, Cayce was the first to make such prognostications. They are very much like those of today's major psychic prophets, all of whom are familiar with Cayce's works:

READING #1
"The earth will be broken up in the western portion of America. The greater portion of Japan must go into the sea. The upper portion of Europe will be changed as in the twinkling of an eye. Land will appear off the east coast of America. There will be the upheavals in the Arctic and in the Antarctic that will make for the eruption of volcanoes in the torrid areas, and there will be the shifting then of the poles -- so that where there has been those of a frigid or the semi-tropical will become the more tropical, and moss and fern will grow."

READING #2
Portions of the now east coast of New York, or New York City itself, will in the main disappear. . . . [T]he southern portions of Carolina, Georgia -- these will disappear. . . . Los Angeles, San Francisco, most of all these will be among those that will be destroyed before New York even."

READING #3
Observer. "What great change or the beginning of what change, if any, is to take place in the earth in the year 2000 to 2001 A.D.?" Cayce: "When there is the shifting of the poles, or a new cycle begins."

Many contemporary occultists believe that Cayce's predictions clearly confirm the prophecies of more recent prophets who have predicted imminent global disaster. John Van Auken, an A.R.E. lecturer, teaches his students that a seven-year period of cataclysmic cleansing of the earth will most likely be completed by 2002. But what seems to be consistently and conveniently overlooked is Cayce's timetable.

Reading #1's prophecies were supposed to have occurred "in those periods" between 1958-1998. The disasters foretold in Reading #2 were scheduled to happen within "one generation" of 1941. In this same reading Cayce stated, "In the next few years land will appear in the Atlantic as well as in the Pacific. And what is the coast line now of many a land will be the bed of the ocean. Even many battle fields of the present will be ocean, will be the seas" (emphasis mine). He also prophesied that the mythical continent of Atlantis would rise from its ocean grave in 1968/ 1969. Reading #3 obviously names 2001 as the terrible "Pole Shift" year.

Other interesting bits of information cast an even greater shadow of doubt on Cayce's psychic abilities. On one occasion, for instance, he gave a reading for a little girl who had died the previous day from leukemia. The letter he received about her had been written while she was still alive. But Cayce had no idea while in his trance that she was already dead, and proceeded to give a cure! For another patient who had passed away without Cayce's knowledge, the Sleeping Prophet prescribed this noxious concoction as a remedy: boiled cherry bark, sarsaparilla root, wild ginger, tolu balsam, buchu leaves, prickly ash bark, ginseng, Indian turnip, mandrake root, and alcohol.

His cures for cancer were even more unconventional. He often prescribed a serum "made from the blood of rabbits for patients with 'glandular,' breast, and thyroid cancers." In 1926, Cayce took this remedy even further by directing a New York patient to place the raw side of a pelt from a freshly skinned rabbit -- "still warm with blood, fur side out" -- on her breast for cancer in that area.

It is also not widely known that Cayce attempted to use his psychic powers to find buried treasure. He even went on an expedition along the, seashore with Henry Goss, the famed "dowser" (i.e., one who uses a forked stick to locate underground water). The two men hoped to find millions of dollars worth of jewels and coins, but after weeks of searching they only succeeded in digging up tons of mud, sand and gravel. James Randi -- the internationally known magician/escape artist who has investigated and debunked countless psychics -- makes the following observation in his book Flim-Flam:

The matter of Edgar Cayce boils down to a vague mass of garbled data, interpreted by true believers who have a very heavy stake in the acceptance of the claims. Put to the test, Cayce is found to be bereft of real powers. His reputation today rests on poor and deceptive reporting of the claims made by him and his followers, and such claims do not stand up to examination.

Psychics have clearly shown themselves to be unreliable when it comes to forecasting the date for our world's destruction. Their prophetic track record, however, is not the worst among occult prognosticators. That distinction goes to astrologers. "End Time Visions: The Road to Armageddon"
Pages 56, 57 and 58 by, Richard Abanes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have also read Shirley Maclaine's writings, which mention Edgar Cayce many times. The truth is not always easy to find, but anyone who wants it, in this case, does not really need to dig very far. You do need to look beyond the "Ass'n. for Research & Enlightenment, Inc." I believe Cayce may have had making a living on his mind with his "gift".

I could, of course, be wrong.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Springfield]

.... I could, of course, be wrong.

Joe Ribaudo

That's a healthy attitude to have with all beliefs, IMO. No matter how solidly we believe our positions, be it LDM, politics, religion or anything else, it has absolutely no bearing on the truth of the matter. The biggest lies are the ones that have the most support - it's how people are controlled.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

There are two sides to every story. I could argue either one in this case. I usually (not always though) can. If I don't know the opposing argument, I do what I can to learn it.
That will either strengthen your side, or win you over to the other. Not everyone appreciates that effort.

Joe

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

I've known you (online) for quite a while now. I've seen you at your best on the original LDM Forum. You seem quite tame over here!

By now, we both should know each other well enough to know when to take offense, and when not to! This isn't one of those times.

I never claimed to be a Dutch Hunter. I am interested in the story, and all the possibilities. I am pretty familiar with most of the history, and people involved. The only thing I would call myself very knowledgeable about are The Stone Maps. If I lived closer, I might have spent more time on the area, but it's 12 hours away, and I have a buffet much closer to home!

I don't see how your new epiphany about that reading changes anything. I saw that the first time I read it. I took it to mean: "Mr. [3638] was some wanna-be Treasure Hunter who lived in Virginia, who had a lead on the LDM, and wanted Cayce to lead him from his lead to the LDM. Seems now, that his lead was Storm's "Trail of the Lost Dutchman". I doubt Cayce had ever read it (but you never know).

You will have your ideas about Cayce, and they are different from mine. I could show you a hundred cases where he made readings that were amazingly accurate, and impossible to have made without hidden knowledge, for every whacky one that makes no sense.

You say that Cayce had income in mind when it came to his predictions. Funny thing that! He NEVER charged a penny for a diagnosis or cure in 44 years and 22,000 readings. When a cotton farmer offered him $100 per day to forecast cotton futures (and he was quite poor), he turned down the money. The only way his foundations and hospitals were built was by the donations of the people he had diagnosed and cured.

Like I said to Oro a while back about the people who have owned the Stone Maps, "Don't pay ANY attention to what they said. Look at their actions." If Cayce were indeed a fraud or trickster, don't you think he would have tried to make a profit from doing readings? After all, in the end, he was doing eight readings a day, for people who would have GLADLY paid him a pretty penny, but charged them nothing. Doesn't sound like a trickster to me. But I'm no expert. I only have my eyes, ears, and common sense.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: New twist on the LDM. (long-winded reply warning)

Hello again,

Not to defend Cayce's every utterance here, but his predictions for geographic upheavals were given with NO date, and could be what will actually happen over millions of years. The continents are, after all, not static but moving, lifting, falling, cracking and heaving all the time, just usually at incredibly slow rates - the earthquakes we get are when things get 'stuck' for a time; lands have indeed fallen below the sea (I can site several off-hand, such as a large part of Alexandria, Egypt, the whole of the city of Heracleum, Egypt, the city of Helike in Greece in a single day, a huge portion of the coast of Chile in relatively recent days, the mighty Mississippi river changed course due to an earthquake in the early 1800s creating Reelfoot lake in the old bed, etc) and land-forms do change. The recent tsunami of 2004 actually re-drew the coastlines of many lands in the Indian ocean and literally changed the rotation of the earth! So trying to fix a date artificially to a prediction which had none is not, generally speaking, a good measure of the accuracy of a predicion.

Just FYI, CJ, I have been in Needle canyon, and read Storm's books more than two decades ago - however I do not own his books and very quickly after reading them concluded that they were not the best sources for info, as I could not find any trace of any historical persons named Peralta ever being in the Superstitions, which was the first step in checking his info . I have made an average of one field-expedition search per year for the Dutchman's mine over nearly thirty years, only the last few years quit - the last trip was quite recent even though I had sworn not to keep going there. It is extremely pretty country, and worth a visit for no other reason than to see it, however as a place to find precious metals deposits the Superstitions are not even in the same league with the Dos Cabezas range which is far closer to home. You can search over the Supers for days and not find any quartz, compare this to Dos Cabezas, where you can find areas in a matter of hours that are so loaded with mineralized quartz veins that you literally cannot take a step without stepping on veins. The Dutchman mine is not the only mine or treasure I have ever searched for, and have had some successes over the years - so when I see this new information (from Cayce, not "new" but is new to me) I have to ask if it is being interpreted correctly; if memory serves, Storm did not include the information that Waltz had concealed the entrance and filled in some six feet of rocks and earth, his version was more like Holmes with a huge funnel entrance and a tunnel below that, not filled-in or concealed. (Please feel free to correct me, if you have a copy of Storm's books handy, as I presume you do in order to be able to cite page 75 for example.)

Your statements about the error of Cayce's description from the "marked cactus" which does not lead to the Dutchman's mine also are a bit odd, since you have posted that you have never made any search for the Lost Dutchman mine, all of your expeditions being in search of buried treasures, not a lost mine. Or did I mis-read your post, in which you wrote:

Even though I have never physically searched for Waltz's mine, I have researched the legend for many years.

(from http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,68799.msg499825.html#msg499825 posted by member Cactusjumper Feb 4, 2007)

So how can you say for a certainty that the directions given by Cayce do not lead to the hidden gold mine of Jacob Waltz, having never done a search for Waltz's mine? Just curious, no offense intended.

There is an ancient Arab proverb which is of service to serious treasure hunters:

"Examine what is said, not him who said it."

Oroblanco

"When a finger points to the sky, the fool looks at the finger." --Chinese proverb

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Just trying to keep it real, without stepping on too many toes.

As I said, "I could be wrong". With over 14000 readings in his lifetime, Cayce was bound to find a few acorns. Many people are cured.....by believing.

As for his reading on the Cactus Marker and the LDM, he was told everything except the condition of the terrain around the marker, and that showed his "reading" was not based on factual evidence he was seeing, unless his powers were lying to him.......Just a little joke.

If I believed he was a true prophet, I would not waste one moment getting out to Needle Canyon and following his very explicit directions. What about you and the others? Anyone making that hike yet? Best to see for yourself and not take a skeptics word for it.

While it may be true that Cayce did not charge folks for his readings, are you saying he did not make any money from the use of his "gift"?

Like you, I am not really a Dutch Hunter. Those who search for any kind of treasure in the Superstitions have always been lumped in with "Dutch Hunters". Having said that, I have never missed an opportunity to read everything I could about the LDM. For many years I have had a ravine marked on my Stone Map Topo, as the likely location of the LDM. I have never taken a step, not one, to search that ravine, but have suggested that others might want to check it out. As it turns out, there is a sealed mine up there.

Shirley Brown has also made hundreds of amazingly accurate statements. She also has her share of duds. One that comes to mind was about a missing child. She told the mother that he was dead and the way he died was not something she should hear. She did go into specific detail and described many events and landmarks. The boy turned up alive and well.

Throw enough S%*&# against the wall, and you might end up with a work of art.

Cayce's life and readings have generated hundreds of millions of dollars. There may be more than a few folks with a vested interest in protecting that golden calf. You may have to do a lot of searching to get beyond there efforts as......shills. The same can be said about the Stone Maps and the LDM.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

You're talking about Sylvia Brown. She's always on Montel Williams. SHE IS A SCAM! My ex-girlfriend made an appointment for a private reading with her a few years ago. I told her what to say, and how to react to what Brown said and did.

She was accurate in about 5% of what she said, and even that wasn't too specific.

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

"Even though I have never physically searched for Waltz's mine, I have researched the legend for many years."

I believe I addressed this comment in a post to Mrs. Oro. You must be reading over each other's shoulders.

I am aware you have been in the Superstitions. You mentioned it before. If you had been to the place where the cactus marker was, you would know why I say that Cayce's directions are bogus. I believe I made it clear in my first post about the subject....why they were a sham.
He had only the question to go by. Not knowing the terrain around the cactus marker, he improvised his own.

"Examine what is said, not him who said it."

Many in this conversation are unable to follow that wise advise, because they have never stood over the place where the marker once stood. I have. You may choose who you wish to believe, but it should probably be someone who was there. Just my opinion.

Many of my trips into the Superstitions were trips of exploration. On my own, I have never searched for the LDM. I have been to Uncle Chuck's claim on Black Top Mesa, Uncle Obie's claim at Second Water, helped Dale Howard with his search, but never searched the area I believed the LDM to be in. Chuck and Obie both believed they had found the LDM.

I am sure that Obie believed that until his death at 102 years of age. Chuck gave up his belief, long before his death.

Barry Storm's book were the source, when they first came out. He was in the field early and interviewed many of the old timers from the Dutchman's time and from the stories shortly therafter. While much of his story is considered "flights of fantasy", there is also a good deal of accurate information in them. I have always tried to separate the wheat from the chaff in all of the books. Each and everyone of them has value and mistakes.

"so when I see this new information (from Cayce, not "new" but is new to me) I have to ask if it is being interpreted correctly; if memory serves, Storm did not include the information that Waltz had concealed the entrance and filled in some six feet of rocks and earth, his version was more like Holmes with a huge funnel entrance and a tunnel below that, not filled-in or concealed."

This indicates that Cayce may have provided like information in his reading. That is not true at all. While he mentions that it "has been covered over", he does not say how that was done, or even what the mine looks like. He goes on to say: "Though to begin at the lower portion of the gulch we would find only about six feet before we would reach pay dirt in gold".

That does not mean that the top of the shaft was covered with six feet of dirt and rock, but that if you started digging at the "lower portion of the gulch" you would only need to dig six feet.

There are a number of times where Storm mentions the earthquake of 1887 and states that
"It may have caused a slide which buried the mine upon a hillside." I can provide the pages if you like. The last time he mentions it, is very near the end of the book, page 110, and would have made a lasting empression on Mr. 3638.

Anyone who goes to the site of the cactus marker and carries Cayce's directions with him/her, will understand why I doubt his reading.

All of my statement's of fact are correct, as I remember those facts. If someone comes along and can show me where they are wrong, I will be the first to admit any mistakes. For those who doubt me.......bring pictures.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Springfield]

There are a number of times where Storm mentions the earthquake of 1887 and states that
"It may have caused a slide which buried the mine upon a hillside."

Ha, ha. Boy, that particular earthquake has been used a number of times all over the Southwest to alibi a searcher's failure to validate his claims. The Lost Adams Diggings is another prominent example. The excuse usually goes something like this, "I've located the ____ without a doubt. Trouble is, the earthquake of 1887 changed the landscape forever and now the _____ will never be found again. Don't worry though, I've solved the mystery. Say, maybe I should write a book to explain it all to you."

"When a finger points to the sky, the fool looks at the finger." --Chinese proverb Oro, one could also turn this proverb upside down and have the fool looking at the sky. In fact, I would say this is usually the case.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Springfiled HI: "KISMET = The fickle finger of Oriental fate" snicker.

Actually there was an earth quake here in Alamos which did cover many things. An example was a huge rock on the side of the mt which had data chisled on one side. It has been seen by several people who had gone back repeatedly to decipher it. I went with one that had gone there several times. The rock was no longer there, it had rolled down the side of the Mt. with thousands of tons of other rocks and dirt. We eventually found it on one side, but it was no longer useable since it was no longer in it's original position.

It pointed to a closed cave with dual entrances. Among other things it has enough rifles to equip a company of infantry plus other weapons. They were placed there with many silver and some gold bars at the end of the reveloution against the French - Maximilian.

The one that placed them there was obviously a French backer, he had to scoot, but they caught and executed him.

Interesting story here which I will post in "other legends" if interested..



Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

[cactusjumper]

It's been many years since I have been to the Cactus Marker location, but this picture is pretty close. Where the canyon makes a straight line angled towards Bluff Spring Mountain is about where I remember it being. The terrain is nothing like what Cayce described.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=cactusjumper link
********
HI spine studded one: that certainly isn't a unvisited area, sheesh, look at the size of the trail there.

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

p.s Have you ever followed up the dike in the upper center, left to right? It seems to lead to a vertical fault also?

 

[the blindbowman]

everyone but me , never seen it, never will ,....

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

Actually, the picture was taken from the top of Black Top Mesa. The mountain to the left is Bluff Spring Mountain.

T.T.,

That trail has been there for many, many years. It is now called the Needle Cutoff Trail, and takes you from East Boulder to Needle Canyon. While there are many trails that remain unknown, to most folks, the popular ones are hiked on a regular basis. Kids, Old Folks, Fat, Skinny....Just about every concievable permutation of the human race walks through there.

Memory does funny things after thirty or forty years, so I would be hard pressed to put an arrow exactly where the cactus marker is on that photo, but believe I could get within 100' or so. I would guess that thousands of people have walked by that site, and had no idea of the history that may have transpired there.

"ave you ever followed up the dike in the upper center, left to right? It seems to lead to a vertical fault also?"

While searching for Bob Brady's cave of gold bars, every inch of that side of Bluff Spring Mountain was covered. Al Morrow also searched it, and claimed in a phone call to my Aunt Maxine, that he had found the cave.....gold bars and all. When Chuck got home, he rode right out to Al's camp, and he denied ever even talking to Maxine.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

The family was never able to understand why Al made that call to Maxine. He actually told her he could tell by the dust layer, that there were two more gold bars missing. He also said he had disconnected the dynamite trip wire at the entrance.

Knowing what I know of the man, I doubt he was having any kind of "fit".

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Al Morrow's phone call would have been made sometime in 1969 or even the year of his death....1970

One other thing about Morrow's death: He had warned my Dad and Uncle Chuck to never go around his dig when it was raining. It was "not safe". Crazy Jake was "in the area" when Al died. Could gold have been a contributing factor in his death?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

Rain makes the ground unstable. Tunnels, boulders, hillsides......you get the idea.

Don't know how big "area" is.

Joe