Bulldog Mine...

[Cubfan64]

Does anyone know for certain the answer to either of these questions?

1) Are there samples of rich gold ore from the Bulldog mine in existence?

2) If so, have any of them been compared both visually and "analytically" to what's believed to be gold or from the LDM?

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[dustcap]

Does anyone know for certain the answer to either of these questions?

1) Are there samples of rich gold ore from the Bulldog mine in existence?

2) If so, have any of them been compared both visually and "analytically" to what's believed to be gold or from the LDM?

Paul,

It seems to have brushed against my eardrums sometime in the last ten or fifteen years that there is a sample of the Bulldog mine ore somewhere. Probably at the Mining Museum in downtown Phoenix or ASU's "mining department" (if there is one) at the school in Tempe. Perhaps I heard word of it when I was packed into the Sups by the OK Corral in Apache Junction. My guides for that three day ride/campout were Ron Feldman and Tom Kollenborn with many stories and legends being told both around the campfire and while out on the trail.

As far as a sample of LDM ore somewhere... I thought I knew someone with a piece in his ring until the last Rendezvous, NOW I have NO idea.

Good luck in your quest.
- 'dustcap'

[natchitoches]

you mite can found what you looking for in this link.
http://mines.az.gov/Rec_Ed/museums.html
not sure if it will help, i did not open the links inside.
i live out in the woods in texas,and all i can get is dialup
very slow.just to read and see the pictures here.
i usely have to refresh the page 5 to 6 times :-(......

[Cubfan64]

I received an e-mail from a friend that answered my question. As I mentioned to him, sometimes I just have so much stuff running through my head that I forgot to check obvious sources. This was his comment to me:

You posted on Treasure Net about gold ore from the Bull Dog Mine. Thomas Glover included the Bull Dog in his "Type of Quartz" comparison table on page 281 in his book "The LDM of Jacob Waltz – Part 1". It shows the Bull Dog ore to be Endothermic while the Jewelry Ore, Camp Ore, and Kochera Ore are all Mesothermic which means that the Bull Dog is a very different type of deposit from the LDM.

[jene]

I know this thread is old but I was just going to say I have a pretty big collection of ore samples from mines all over the US. My recently acquired rocks have been in storage for 25+ years and were the property of a geologist that worked at Homestake Mining Co. Many of the samples are marked or are partially labeled, but many are not. Anyway, I'm definitely glad to have them. I have a few specimens marked BULLDOG ORE if you want to check out the photo.

[Azhiker]

jene,

There are several mines known as the "Bulldog" in several different States including the one in Arizona near Superstition Mountain. Is the Bulldog ore in your photo from the Arizona mine ?

Also, it is interesting to note there are good samples of ore from the Arizona Bulldog mine both in a museum collection and privately held by former owners of the mine. If you know the history of the Arizona Bulldog, four men, the Merrill brothers, Hakes and JR Morse located the Bulldog claim in 1892. However they never worked the claim. They sold the claim to Charles Ellis and Gus Hirshfeld who developed the claim and sunk the shaft. Ellis and Hirshfeld took between 50K and 100K out of the mine before selling the mine to the Shill brothers. If anyone remembers, the Dutchman matchbox, which photo has appeared in numerous Dutchman books over the years, was once the property of Gus Hirschfeld.

Azhiker

[cactusjumper]

Azhiker,

What happened to all of your posts over on DUSA........Some kind of computer glitch?

Joe Ribaudo

[roadrunner]

mesothermic: deposited from warm waters at intermediate depth under conditions in the medium ranges of temperature and pressure —used of mineral veins and ore deposits

definition of endothermic
characterized by or formed with absorption of heat

Seems to me they are both done with heat in some way. Have to read some more.
I was thinking about the bulldog also after reading a few things the other day.


mesothermal deposit

A mineral deposit formed at moderate temperature and pressure.
Along fissures or other openings in rocks.
From hydrothermal fluids.
Mesothermal deposits are believed to
have formed mostly between 175 degrees C and 300 degrees C at depths of
4,000 to 12,000 ft.
Many valuable deposits of western North America are of this type.

Mesothermal vein deposits, which generally occur at greater depths, underground mining is the preferred extraction method.


An endothermic reaction is one that results in a net loss of heat.
That is, an endothermic reaction solution should be colder after reaction than it was before the reaction.
Think ice pack that you pick up warm,break,squeeze,then gets cold.

This generally means that the heat you put into the reaction is being converted into bond energy.
An endothermic reaction is one where the bond energy of the products is higher than that of the reactants.

I also put in these keywords, and came up with nothing on how any rocks,veins,or gold could made this way.
endothermic gold
endothermic rock
endothermic vein

[Azhiker]

roadrunner,

Good post on endothermal and mesothermal deposits. It's easy to get confused over all the term and definitions. What needs to be understood is the gold eventually formed in a solution that was born at a certain depth, temperature and pressure that is defined as mesothermal, or endothermal or epithermal. It does not mean the gold was found at those depths or at that temperature or pressure. Most western mines are mesothermal but almost none go down to the 4000 ft. level that would be the minimum level at which mesothermal deposits form.

The Bulldog is an easy mine to classify and compare other samples with. You don't even need to trace the origin of the deposit back to it's depth, temperature and pressure. The Bulldog gold was found in a quartz calcite vein. The Dutchman matchbox ore was in a pure quartz vein. You don't need a laboratory or high tech equipment to compare the two ores. Under a High School microscope quartz shows hexagonal prisms while calcite shows trigonal prisms. Quartz has a hardness of 7 Moh's and Calcite 3 Moh's, easily done with a non destructive hardness tester. Calcites refractive index is 1.49 while Quartz is 1.55. Again easily done with a refractive light meter. The presence of Calcite in the Bulldog ore rules it out as a match with the Dutchman matchbox ore.

The Dutchman matchbox and Bulldog ore are definitely not the same ores. That makes the question of where Gus Hirshfeld aquired the ore for the Dutchman matchbox even more interesting.

Azhiker

[cactusjumper]

roadrunner,

Good post on endothermal and mesothermal deposits. It's easy to get confused over all the term and definitions. What needs to be understood is the gold eventually formed in a solution that was born at a certain depth, temperature and pressure that is defined as mesothermal, or endothermal or epithermal. It does not mean the gold was found at those depths or at that temperature or pressure. Most western mines are mesothermal but almost none go down to the 4000 ft. level that would be the minimum level at which mesothermal deposits form.

The Bulldog is an easy mine to classify and compare other samples with. You don't even need to trace the origin of the deposit back to it's depth, temperature and pressure. The Bulldog gold was found in a quartz calcite vein. The Dutchman matchbox ore was in a pure quartz vein. You don't need a laboratory or high tech equipment to compare the two ores. Under a High School microscope quartz shows hexagonal prisms while calcite shows trigonal prisms. Quartz has a hardness of 7 Moh's and Calcite 3 Moh's, easily done with a non destructive hardness tester. Calcites refractive index is 1.49 while Quartz is 1.55. Again easily done with a refractive light meter. The presence of Calcite in the Bulldog ore rules it out as a match with the Dutchman matchbox ore.

The Dutchman matchbox and Bulldog ore are definitely not the same ores. That makes the question of where Gus Hirshfeld aquired the ore for the Dutchman matchbox even more interesting.

Azhiker

Azhiker,

There is so much false information being created by people for their own agendas, that it's getting harder and harder to separate the made-up "facts" from the .....maybes. IMHO, the "Dutchman Ore" stories are at the top of the heap. I am dazzled by your tech-laden posts.

A good friend of mine was given a piece of "Dutchman Ore" by a "good friend" of his. That friend turned out to be a huge fraud, and he hasn't worn the ring since he found out the truth about the man. He betrayed the trust of my friend, his wife and others in the Dutch hunting community. These days when someone says/writes "definitely", it takes a little shine off the dazzle.

The question here is, if you signed your name to your posts would it add or detract from the dazzle?

Joe Ribaudo

[somehiker]

Try a search using "endothermic gold deposits".
Gives a number of references.
I wonder which category Crystalline gold would be ??

Regards:SH.

[cactusjumper]

Try a search using "endothermic gold deposits".
Gives a number of references.
I wonder which category Crystalline gold would be ??

Regards:SH.

Wayne,

Since there is no way to positively identify "Dutchman" gold, it seems like an exercise in futility.....especially for someone like me, who doesn't know $#!T about rocks. At one time, I would have taken what Azhiker said as Gospel. That day is long past.

Nice warm day in Arizona.

Take care,

Joe

[Azhiker]

somehiker, roadrunner,

Many references to endothermic gold deposits, so many in fact it gets confusing and some references seem to counter other ones. I'm not sure about crystalline gold because it is so rare in Arizona mines. While Calcite and Quartz gold deposits refer to the matrix the gold is formed in, Crystalline gold is the actual gold itself that formed as crystals usually in an 8 sided shape. The high temperatures of the volcano's that formed the Arizona mountains tended to destroy the gold crystal formation as I understand it. somehiker, were you saying the Dutchman ore is Crystalline ? The Bulldog mine is well documented by the Arizona mineral museum and has several good samples of gold ore from that mine for all to see.

Azhiker

[somehiker]

Azhiker:

Hydrothermal (deep and hot), Mesothermal (deep and moderate), and Epithermal (shallow and warm) are the categories of genesis most often discussed when comparing gold ores,
Especially within the debate surrounding the "Dutchman Ore", described as a multicolored ore with wire and nugget gold in a white quartz matrix of Mesothermal origin.
Although I wasn't suggesting that the deathbed/candlebox ore was Crystalline in nature, I'm not so sure that the temperatures of the caulderic events that formed the Sups would preclude such a gold deposit somewhere within the range.
But the LDM is not what I'm primarily looking for out there, and like Joe, I don't know much about rocks.

Regards:SH.

[Azhiker]

somehiker,

Thats an interesting statement that wire gold is associated with Dutchman ore, one I had never given much thought to. And yes crystalline gold has been noted in some Arizona mines although not a common occurance. It only takes the temperature gold melts at to destroy the crystal structure of the gold and that is easily achieved by most volcanic activity. It would have been nice if the gold comparison in the Tom Gloevr book would have actually showed some analysis data. The hydro, meso and epithermal debate will go on until someone finally does an in depth analysis. Three different geologists will look at the same rock and each one will proclaim it from a different event. That has always been the problem with comparison to analysis. You gave me something good to think about.

Azhiker

[roadrunner]

Azhiker-thanks for the compliment.
Well I know very little about rocks also. I do know what rose, white quartz ect look like.
granite, crysicolla, ect.
Especially the round ones I use in my wrist rocket.

I was giving the bulldog mine a thought a few weeks ago when I read this at this link.
Of course, just reading things and getting an over all picture, and more information.
Bulldog mine hike

[jene]

Azhiker,

Thank you, yes, I can not be to sure which state (and which "bulldog" mine), the above samples came from, but because Homestake owned the BD mine in Colorado I have to think it likely that the above rock had to have come from there. Until I can compare it to other specimens with definitive origins, I won't know for sure. I have came across more samples that are clearly marked Bulldog - Colorado since first posting here and I'm trying to categorize them as I go through them for a photo record, but it's very time consuming. I also have a section of my garage with literally tons of ore samples from Arizona, but I can not recall if any came from a Bulldog, AZ. I do have one marked BD, ILL; assuming it may mean Bulldog - Illinois, maybe?

Everything is pretty chaotic right now, but soon I'll have the collection viewable, meaning I'll at least have pictures and whatever information I'm sure about uploaded for anyone to check out. I'll put the link here when I'm done...if I ever get done.

Homestake Mine 1915

[Azhiker]

jene,

Thats great ! I can't wait to see it when you have the collection all photographed, cataloged and viewable ! I'd love to see the collection. It's rare you have one that is even somewhat documented. If you have an assay sample, or ever see one from Arizona marked JP 91-237, don't let it out of your sight, it just might be the mother lode of all ore samples. The Homestake photos with the smelter house are classics.

Azhiker

[secretcanyon]

somehiker,

Thats an interesting statement that wire gold is associated with Dutchman ore, one I had never given much thought to. And yes crystalline gold has been noted in some Arizona mines although not a common occurance. It only takes the temperature gold melts at to destroy the crystal structure of the gold and that is easily achieved by most volcanic activity. It would have been nice if the gold comparison in the Tom Gloevr book would have actually showed some analysis data. The hydro, meso and epithermal debate will go on until someone finally does an in depth analysis. Three different geologists will look at the same rock and each one will proclaim it from a different event. That has always been the problem with comparison to analysis. You gave me something good to think about.

Azhiker

the only place I have found wire gold...an measurable length...is in copper basin...southwest of Prescott.
this was out of a bucket of dirt I washed...the mine is now "reclaimed" and one can not access the bedrock