DUTCHMAN ORE?

[Terry Soloman]

Not possible to have an open minded discussion with someone who speaks in absolutes like the above. Always find it curious why someone would spend one second on a forum topic they have absolutely zero interest in.

I'm open minded. Show me the gold. Show me ANYTHING that would prove I'm wrong. I'm very patient. I'm interested in this thread, because I know the mountains very well, and I like the crazy stories that come out of them, usually told by out-of-towners that spend less than two-weeks there once a year. How many of the experts on this thread have ever actually studied the old Maricopa County records, or gone to ASU to go through the old archives? Two? None? For those of us that have, it's the old US Army Calvery and Indian relics we find there exploring the Apache escape trails into Mexico that draws us - the actual history, not gold.

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[Cubfan64]

I'm open minded. Show me the gold. Show me ANYTHING that would prove I'm wrong. I'm very patient. I'm interested in this thread, because I know the mountains very well, and I like the crazy stories that come out of them, usually told by out-of-towners that spend less than two-weeks there once a year. How many of the experts on this thread have ever actually studied the old Maricopa County records, or gone to ASU to go through the old archives? Two? None? For those of us that have, it's the old US Army Calvery and Indian relics we find there exploring the Apache escape trails into Mexico that draws us - the actual history, not gold.

Many of the Maricopa County records are available for searching online and yes, a number of us have done that many times looking for all sorts of things. I haven't been to ASU yet, but that and Sharlot Hall are on my list of places to spend time at. I have however spent countless hours pouring over old records (many copied from the ASU archives and Sharlot Hall collections as well as many other places) at the home of an aquaintance who has a lifetime collection of such things that would put some archives to shame.

I haven't personally done it, but there is at least one person who posts now and then who has travelled to a number of archives, county record offices, etc... around the country while on vacation to research and investigate specific aspects of the LDM legends. He has just a small collection of what he's uncovered available online to look through here...

Lost Dutchman Mine Documents

I was lucky enough a couple years ago to help him in an effort to locate Erwin Ruth's daughter who we eventually both located from different directions within a day or two of each other. She was kind enough to correspond with him and pass along Erwin's papers - many of which are included in the link above.

I personally have read as much as I can find on military engagements which occurred in and around the Superstitions including the pertinent diaries of John Bourke, a number of excellent college research papers on the Arizona Volunteers and their involvement in the "Indian Wars," numerous military reports from the various forts including McDowell, Grants, Verde, etc... that involve the Tonto Basin and Superstitions, etc...

I wish I lived closer to AZ than I do, and I'm sorry to say I'm one of those "out of towners" who can only come out for a week or two every year, but I do what I can with what I have - I'm sorry if that puts me in the category of a "wanna be" or something. I also plan to get to Washington D.C. and/or West Point or anywhere else I can access original documents to investigate more of the military records from the Superstition Area when I can.

I have absolutely no illusion of ever locating the LDM - I can't even say right now that I believe it exists as Waltz could just as easily have come across a cache of gold ore at one time or another and kept it hidden out in that general area at one time. I find the stories, legends and overall history of those mountains to be fascinating however. My favorite exploration days are those where I'm so far off the beaten path that I sit down for a drink and reflect on the area and wonder when the last time someone stood in the same spot I'm sitting now - if ever. There's "always something over the next ridge" whenever I'm hiking and exploring out there, and I'm captivated by the history that the Superstitions hold secret.

As far as proving anything - I can't for obvious reasons. First of all I could put up a photo of gold ore and that would convince absolutely nobody that it came out of the Superstitions even if I swore on a stack of Bibles that it did. Secondly, I could take you out and show you a vein of gold ore, but that would be stupid of me or anyone else to do because the next time I went there, it could all be gone.

I never called myself an expert on anything here. I know some things, but not nearly as much as others do on a TON of topics surrounding the LDM and Superstitions. I'm not and never will be arrogant to consider myself an expert on any of it.

I do however know there's a difference between saying "I doubt there is any marketable gold ore to be found in the Superstitions" and "Nobody has EVER found a vein."

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that I think and I'll leave it at that from my end - this kind of discussion can just continue in a circular fashion forever and never resolve itself .

On the other hand, I'm VERY interested in any books, records, documents, etc... related to military involvement in the Superstitions and Tonto Basin area - if you know of anything online or possibly available in libraries like Harvard, etc... that you don't mind directing me to, I would be very appreciative. I'm interested in history too and not just gold .

[sgtfda]

My friend has shown me more than one gold in every pan spot in Az. Next time he is down this way he will show me a Superstition spot. I have total faith in him. He is never wrong when he says major gold and has not let me down yet. If he says there is gold there, it's there. My interest is not the gold in that area but other things. My wife likes to pan at home and I bring her buckets of gold dirt from these areas for her to play with. My friend knows this and gives her buckets of gold dirt every time he sees her.
Terry I did ask him if he was interested in handling some tours for you. He is thinking about it. He does some of his own so I'm not sure if he will go for it. If he does I will put him in touch with you.
As they say,"gold is where you find it".

[sgtfda]

Oh guys I might add Terry did not ask. I talked to my friend a month ago about it. You see I consider Terry a friend also and I try to help out my friends when I can.

[cactusjumper]

This picture was taken by Roger. It was said to be Kochera ore.

[natchitoches]

is that gold ore?

[cactusjumper]

is that gold ore?

So I've been told.

Joe

[sgtfda]

So Joe I assume its ore from the Superstitions or you would not have posted the photo.

[cactusjumper]

Frank,

I had no connection to the ore, but was told it came from the Superstitions. With no more than the picture and the word of the man who made the statement, I believe it to be true.

Take care,

Joe

[somehiker]

Joe:
Was Jesse Feldman the photographer/original source of this photo ?

Regards:Wayne

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Since I was not there when the picture was taken, I can't really say who the photographer was...with certainty.

The title of this topic is "Dutchman Ore?", so the picture, IMHO, fits the topic.

Take care,

Joe

[cactusjumper]

It is well documented. Waltz left California in 1863, with the Peeples-Weaver Party (which included Henery Wickenburg) headed for the Bradshaw Mountains of Arizona Territory. Waltz was one of the earliest pioneer prospectors in the Bradshaw Mountain area. Waltz’s name appears on the Gross Claim which was filed in Prescott, Arizona Territory on September 21, 1863. His name also appears on a special territorial census taken in 1864.
On this census Waltz is listed as a miner, 54 years of age, and a native of Germany. Waltz’s name also appeared on a petition to territorial governor John N. Goodwin soliciting a militia to control the predatory raids of hostile Indians in the Bradshaw Mountains. Jacob Waltz’s name also appeared on the Big Rebel and the General Grant claims in the Bradshaw Mountains. Waltz was very active in the Bradshaw and Weaver Mountains between 1863-67, including the Vulture mine.

Dig a little deeper..

Terry,

Can you tell us where the statement in bold above, can be found in an historical document?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

[cactusjumper]

The following is taken from historical documents:

Appendix: Walker Party Lists Comparison Conner’s List 1861 List 1862 List 1863 List34 names 19 names 29 names 25 namesAlbert Case Benedict* X XGeorge Blosser* X X XJohnny Bull*Felix Burton* XJames Chase* XGeorge Coulter* X X XDaniel E. Conner* X XHyrum Cummings* X XJohn Dixon* X X XFrank Finney* X XAdnah French* X XFrancis G. Gilliland* X XThomas Johnson* XMartin Lewis* X X XGeorge Lount* X XJacob Lynn* X X XJackson McCracken* XRhoderic McKinnon* X XHyrum Mealman*Henry Miller* XJohn J. Miller* X XJacob L. Miller* X X XSamuel C. Miller* X X XCharles Noble* XJacob Schneider [Sneider]* XSolomon Shoup* X XAlford Shupp* XJohn W. Swilling* XCharles Taylor* X XVincent Young* XCapt. Joseph R. Walker* X X XJoseph R. Walker, Jr* X X XJames Wheelhouse* X XBill Williams* X XForsyth*Clothier*HallettHardin[g]*Al DunnLuther Paine*John Walker*Wm MurraySamuel Wells Felix Cholet __________________________ As you can see, there is no mention of Jacob Waltz for any of the three years listed. Those years are: 1861, 1862 or1863. This is old news for most researchers, and has been discussed many times. You mention that "it is well documented". Can you show us such a document? What is your source? Thank you, Joe Ribaudo

[Terry Soloman]

Terry,

Can you tell us where the statement in bold above, can be found in an historical document?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

I sure can Joe. It seems to me that you could to if you had any real knowledge on this subject, rather than just cutting and pasting stuff off the Internet. Seriously, to those that have put any real time into studying the facts around Jacob Waltz, and the Arizona gold rush of 1862-'65, the "Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine," is a pipe dream concocted by a thief and murderer to cover the fact he had built up a cache of gold and gold ore stolen over a ten-year period. The truth just isn't as thrilling as a "lost gold mine," or "Indian Curses," "Spanish missonary gold," yadda-yadda-yadda.

There HAS been caches found, but you'll NEVER know where - or even how much, because the folks that REALLY find treasure DO NOT sit around campfires and spill their guts about it. They just sell it off nice and slow, build their new house, buy their new truck, and send the kiddies off to college.

[Cubfan64]

They just sell it off nice and slow, build their new house, buy their new truck, and send the kiddies off to college.

I believe those who know best believe that's exactly where the sample Joe posted ended up - along with lots of other "samples."

I'm not convinced as Joe is that it came out of the "Lost Dutchman Mine," myself, but I do believe it came out of the mine shaft opened up below the pit and worked for a number of years.

[Terry Soloman]

Where in Arizona did THIS gold ore come from?

[cactusjumper]

I sure can Joe. It seems to me that you could to if you had any real knowledge on this subject, rather than just cutting and pasting stuff off the Internet. Seriously, to those that have put any real time into studying the facts around Jacob Waltz, and the Arizona gold rush of 1862-'65, the "Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine," is a pipe dream concocted by a thief and murderer to cover the fact he had built up a cache of gold and gold ore stolen over a ten-year period. The truth just isn't as thrilling as a "lost gold mine," or "Indian Curses," "Spanish missonary gold," yadda-yadda-yadda.

There HAS been caches found, but you'll NEVER know where - or even how much, because the folks that REALLY find treasure DO NOT sit around campfires and spill their guts about it. They just sell it off nice and slow, build their new house, buy their new truck, and send the kiddies off to college.

Terry,

I seldom cut and paste unless I'm at our store and away from home.

I asked if you could tell us where such documentation can be found, and you gave me "yadda-yadda-yadda". That is not a source, except to blowhards who have no real, personal, knowledge.

Nothing you "claim" will be acceptable as source material. Insulting my knowledge or methodology will only be acceptable to people who are like you. I have been going into the Superstitions and researching the LDM for around fifty-four years now.

If you want to have a mutually respectful conversation on the known facts concerning the LDM or the history of the Superstioun mountains, or history in general, I would be happy to continue.

Joe Ribaudo

[natchitoches]

ooo i see gold in that ore.

[vor]

Bradshaws.

[Terry Soloman]

Terry,

I seldom cut and paste unless I'm at our store and away from home.

I asked if you could tell us where such documentation can be found, and you gave me "yadda-yadda-yadda". That is not a source, except to blowhards who have no real, personal, knowledge.

Nothing you "claim" will be acceptable as source material. Insulting my knowledge or methodology will only be acceptable to people who are like you. I have been going into the Superstitions and researching the LDM for around fifty-four years now.

If you want to have a mutually respectful conversation on the known facts concerning the LDM or the history of the Superstioun mountains, or history in general, I would be happy to continue.

Joe Ribaudo

Wow, 50-years Joe?! That's a long time to come up completely empty isn't it? I think you illustrate perfectly my "theory" that the LDM is nothing but air, and a darn good way to separate greenhorns from their hard earned money.

I'm not insulting you or anyone else. I am very tired however, of the same bad information and speculation being parroted over the internet and in books sold by modern day snake oil dealers.

There are people that make their living off of this legend. Some of them are actual believers and I feel sorry for them. As for the others, all I feel is disdain because in my mind they are con-artists preying on the hopes and dreams of greenhorns.