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Thread: LDM why you can't get it ! MAP #10

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  1. #21
    gr
    Oct 2012
    734
    135 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Sometimes the silence is wiser . I will continue , only if you will participate to the search . I wrote in the thread #17 " We are all here to decode enigmas " . Get your decisions about .
    I hope to read your threads soon .

    Marius
    Last edited by markmar; Jan 10, 2013 at 03:24 PM.
    Marius


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  3. #22
    gr
    Oct 2012
    734
    135 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    O. K.
    Because you don't have decided yet to participate , I will tell you why the Peralta mine is not the same with the LDM ( ever to my opinion ) .
    The Peraltas was miners and topomasters . They found a mountain side rich in gold near to an Apache sacred land . They found a " golden ledge ". In the beginning of the mine exploitation , the Apache left them alone , but watch them carefully from distance. When the Peraltas realized how the vein goes toward in the sacred land and after a some time , they tried to invade into . The Apaches saw them and after a confrontation , killed them . In this case the Peraltas never found the "Apache " or LDM mine .
    And now comes Jacob Waltz , who , with the help of the Peralta's stone maps and an relative of Peralta's family , found the Peralta's mine or " Golden ledge " . The " Dutchman " and his company took a small amount of that mine . Jacob Waltz was miner and he realised too how the vein go lower on the mountain side . One day looking around or with the help of his indian girlfriend , found the " Apache " mine . That was a big mistake . The Apaches saw them and tried to kill them .Waltz did along time to go to the mine . After that he went to the " Apache " mine carefully and alone .
    And now the Waltz's clues :
    " No miner will find my mine ". The Peraltas was miners and that means how they didn't found the mine .
    " Some distance above the tunel , on the side of the mountains , is a shaft or incline that is not so steep but one can climb down . This , too , is covered carefully . The shaft goes right down in the midst of the rich golden ledge , where it can picked off in big flakes of almost pure gold " . Look at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....ranscribed.pdf . That means how the LDM mine is lower of Peraltas mine .
    I hope to give you a good explanation . Now remains to find the location of the mines .


    Marius

    P.S.

    In the "Waltz Map " the big black arrow show the Peralta's " Golden Ledge " , and the star in the circle is the trap . The white circle is LDM . The map have three pictures ( maps ) : One big to the right and two smallest to the left , up and down . The smallest are a closer view of LDM . The map is reversed .

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Waltz map.gif 
Views:	107 
Size:	8.8 KB 
ID:	724942

    If you want to see maps look at http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.c...ls.php?album=3
    Last edited by markmar; Jan 29, 2013 at 02:31 PM.
    Marius


  4. #23
    us
    Feb 2011
    Central Pennsylvania, ex SoCal
    White's DFX
    195
    5 times

    My thoughts on the Fever, Ruth, the Secret, and Waltz the person

    Marius,

    Thank You for the (Stories) about the LDM, Peralta's, Waltz.

    Some of which I had read in the past and most details forgotten.

    Gold Fever,
    as I remember is a condition where your mind creates chemicals in the body

    that will allow you to perform in ways that may be totally out of character. I
    would think most Everyone in this Broad Forum "T/N" has had this Fever more
    or less, at one time or another.

    Ruth I would think is No exception. Or those who found his body thinking
    he had found the LDM.

    Ruth was a greenhorn, tenderfoot, someone not tested for the elements he was

    about to undertake.

    Ruths
    skull as I recall had a bullet hole or two in it. I saw a picture of his skull on the ground,

    searchers in view. But I believe I read this photo was staged, because they did not
    have a camera when the search party found the remains.

    I think the story of Ruth is sensationalized because of the (paper) note found in
    the check book, Veni Vede Vici. I Came, I Saw, I Conquered. The Fever set in
    on the Search Party, the Search changed to "Looking for Gold !" Remember
    they were the Search Party, the Search was Over, but after the "Huddle" they
    decided to retrace Ruth's tracks that could only have been done by the (paper)
    they had, and No new evidence on the LDM as I remember. Quote: "Tex led them
    - it certainly was a Rough Trip !" A rough trip for Men experienced in this part of the
    country. But most likely the first time out for most following the Clues.

    What is missing is Ruth never found the LDM. "Vici", there was no Conquered !

    Secret,
    ever had a secret that someone or some people kept asking you what it was that
    you Knew ? To the point of Irritability ? To the point of creating an incidence that
    you might otherwise like to forget about ? I have, and was not comfortable about
    the whole mess. And it was No Big Deal !

    There were two couples having dinner in a restaurant. The two men sitting across
    from each other noticed an ash tray on the table that each wanted to take home
    after the meal. A discussion occurred on who should have it. One of them said,
    "I'll take this off the table and you will never see me take it, if you do, then it's
    yours !" when the meal was almost over, the woman on the other side of the
    table noticed the ash tray was missing. The man on her side realized he had lost.
    The wife, her sister, and the "Looser" kept after him, a 30 mile trip back home. He
    kept silent, to analyze the event of the evening. Not the dinner, but the actions of
    the group prying to get the Secret of the ash tray. Later that evening the wife of
    the "Winner" caused such a commotion on how the Secret was performed that he
    eventually had to give in as to "Save The Marriage !" He could not believe how the
    situation escalated over something as simple as it was, and we were Not Talking
    About A Fabulous Gold Mine !

    Jacob Waltz was an educated man. He knew when he turned in his gold for currency
    he was a Marked man, a Target. As a prospector, he knew this Gold was exceptional.
    His assayed Gold would be the talk of the town, and the next town, and the next.
    Because of this, he had cache's placed on the trail back to town.

    How smart was Jacob Waltz ?
    To be a successful prospector, live out his life to an old age, and No one with the
    Fever ever found the Mine, and lived to talk about it !

    According to the Stories of those who were looking for the LDM, based on the clues
    given by Waltz, this was fairly rugged country. And in this No Man's Land, a place
    that no one could work out a living, is this Rock formed by God, known today as
    Weavers Needle. I would ask, "How long did it take Waltz before he gave out his
    first Clue ? The time for his Second, his Third, Forth. And what time of the year
    was it ? Why would he give out any clues at all ? Remember the Ash Tray ? He
    gave out clues to get people Off His Back !

    Imagine this, people running through town screaming "We Have a Clue to the
    Dutchman's Mine !" And eventually "We Have A New Clue !" and everyone would
    know exactly what you are screaming about. People running around getting their
    gear together and others begging for a "Grub Stake" for a share of the Mine. More
    people gathered in lines at the Mercantile with their grub stake money buying
    up coffee, bacon, beans & bullets. The lucky one's have already left town, not
    boggled down begging for a "Stake". The News travels to the next town, and
    the next. Laborer's have now become a shortage everywhere. Those laborers
    who have stayed in town can now seek out the best pay, supply and demand
    economics also felt at the Mercantile.

    Now we are headed out to the Needle. Hundreds of people following the same
    trail. Campfires at night, seekers sitting around talking about what they would
    do if they found It ! Where ? 5 miles from the Needle, from the North I can see
    the 4 Peaks. Essentially, that would put a few people within sight of each other
    causing additional stress, immediacy. Someone has to file a claim so you have to
    travel together. Locked on to the Needle & 4 Peaks can keep a lot of people off
    your back for a while. Concentrated on some of the worst terrain experienced.

    Eventually people have come back to town, grub stakes have run out. The
    pestering starts all over again, you learn by experience to let out a clue in a timely
    manor. Probably in the worst conditions (summer/winter) for Revenge.
    You learn over time to talk in parables/fables, this keeps everyone's attention

    off him and on the directions (Needle/4 Peaks). I believe Waltz put a lot of
    thought of where he wanted to send the Seekers. A place he was familiar with,
    "Tex led them, it certainly was a Rough Trip !" Each time the process starts all
    over again. Waltz learns the Parasites who have not learned to go out on first
    notice, are keeping an eye on him. He may feel safer out on the trail so he goes
    to the Fort (McDowell) to report those he suspects may do him harm. He doesn't
    trust anyone but the Army, they are the only one's not looking for the Mine.

    I would think the only time Waltz could/would give out the actual location of
    the Mine would be under duress/illness. If Waltz wanted to give out the site
    of the Mine, he would have done that before he died of old age. He would
    have taken that someone there. So based on the hardships of a Prospector

    to make a living, why would Waltz give away his Mine to anyone who hasn't
    paid the price ? There is speculation that Waltz killed his friend Jacob. There
    is the part of the story that the friend was at the Mine, together (Mine of 6
    Mexicans ?). The friend did not survive, did Waltz kill him because he later
    violated the Sacredness of the Mine ?

    The Easiest information to follow with the greatest amount of hardship ?
    I don't think we are giving the "Dutchman" enough credit !


    Lastly, weighing all the evidence that I am concerned with, the Mine exists,
    but not in the Superstitions, not around Weavers Needle, not 4 Peaks to the
    North. One place (2) entrances and possibly three (3) tunnels within.

    Based on my analysis of the words of Waltz, two (2) places to enter the Mine,
    Not a ledge of Gold. Due to natural erosion, a ledge would reveal itself. How
    does one think a ledge got there in the first place.

    This (actual drawing ?) of the entrance, I believe is Real. Red Mountain area.
    The left the image is on the Right side of the Arroyo looking up hill. The Picacho/Red Mountain.

    Jack



    Attached Images Attached Images  
    "Red Mountain and only "Red Mountain !" (Mt McDowell)
    I have no other interests in my Search for Clues linking the
    last Mine Peralta/Jacob Waltz/LDM, One and The Same.......

    drinkin' ale and kickin' ass since 1775, not necessarily in that order !

  5. #24
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,272
    502 times
    Jack,

    "What is missing is Ruth never found the LDM. "Vici", there was no Conquered !"

    You, like everyone else assume that Ruth did not find the mine, or what he was looking for.

    Before he died, Gene Reynolds asked me if I had a picture of Weaver's Needle, from a claim marker we had found. I did, and he told me that was the view Ruth was looking for. This is the view of Weaver's Needle that Ruth was looking for:



    At this point, I believe Ruth did find "Vici", and was killed, and his body was moved to protect the find.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    Last edited by cactusjumper; Jan 14, 2013 at 12:34 PM.

  6. #25
    vor
    vor is offline

    Jun 2012
    1,594
    317 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    JackH
    We can hear you fine. No need to shout.
    Thanks
    V
    Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not: Jeremiah 5:21

  7. #26
    gr
    Oct 2012
    734
    135 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hi Jack

    I don't have gold fever . I don't want to extract profits from this research . I want to help you to find the LDM following the clues . You believe how I don't know were is it ? I could tell you were it is , to see that i am right , but is the easy way .
    Is so easy to find it , but you are suspicious and you don't believe anything . Everyone , according to what he has seen in his dreams , the next day go to a different place . I don't insist to my theory , but i want to show you the correct location . If you don't believe , it's your problem .
    I think not participate more . Unfairly lose my time .
    In the new "Waltz " map which you post , tell me were is the mountain who have the same high with the Red Mountain ? A proverb say : " Think twice to do once "
    I will post two maps to see the similarity between them

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Map.jpg 
Views:	273 
Size:	225.3 KB 
ID:	725992 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Manuel Peralta.gif 
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Size:	12.1 KB 
ID:	725993


    P.S.

    Joe , you are close to the point , but you are to the place were found the Ruth's body . Ruth when wrote " Veni ,Vidi " was South of Black Mountain between La Barge and Needle Canyon .
    Last edited by markmar; Feb 19, 2013 at 04:06 PM.
    Marius


  8. #27
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,272
    502 times
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Hi Jack

    I don't have gold fever . I don't want to extract profits from this research . I want to help you to find the LDM following the clues . You believe how I don't know were is it ? I could tell you were it is , to see that i am right , but is the easy way .
    Is so easy to find it , but you are suspicious and you don't believe anything . Everyone , according to what he has seen in his dreams , the next day go to a different place . I don't insist to my theory , but i want to show you the correct location . If you don't believe , it's your problem .
    I think not participate more . Unfairly lose my time .
    In the new "Waltz "map which you post , tell me were is the mountain who have the same high with the Red Mountain ? A proverb say : " Think twice to do once "
    I will post two maps to see the similarity between them .

    Attachment 725652Attachment 725653


    P.S.

    Joe , you are close to the point , but you are to the place were found the Ruth's body . Ruth when wrote " Veni ,Vedi " was South of Black Mountain between La Barge and Needle Canyon .
    MM,

    OK, I'll bite.....How do you know were he was when he wrote the note?

    Thanks,

    Joe

  9. #28
    gr
    Oct 2012
    734
    135 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Joe

    Because from that place you can see the " Perfil " map reversed . Go there and after tell me .

    Marius
    Marius


  10. #29
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,272
    502 times
    MM,

    I have been there. Where do you think Ruth's body was found?

    Joe

  11. #30
    us
    Feb 2011
    Central Pennsylvania, ex SoCal
    White's DFX
    195
    5 times
    Quote Originally Posted by vor View Post
    JackH
    We can hear you fine. No need to shout.
    Thanks
    V
    thanks vor,

    I have been having a problem posting with this new system, even after locking in Chrome.

    Wrote my thoughts in an email to myself, copied and pasted into the thread. I had a habit
    of bold type in green, and went back to black, now I'm shouting. Thanks again for the heads up.

    Jack
    "Red Mountain and only "Red Mountain !" (Mt McDowell)
    I have no other interests in my Search for Clues linking the
    last Mine Peralta/Jacob Waltz/LDM, One and The Same.......

    drinkin' ale and kickin' ass since 1775, not necessarily in that order !

  12. #31
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,272
    502 times
    So, BB............Is there a reason for the new name, or are you just getting bored with the old one.

    Joe

  13. #32
    us
    Feb 2011
    Central Pennsylvania, ex SoCal
    White's DFX
    195
    5 times
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Hi Jack

    I don't have gold fever . I don't want to extract profits from this research . I want to help you to find the LDM following the clues . You believe how I don't know were is it ? I could tell you were it is , to see that i am right , but is the easy way .
    Is so easy to find it , but you are suspicious and you don't believe anything . Everyone , according to what he has seen in his dreams , the next day go to a different place . I don't insist to my theory , but i want to show you the correct location . If you don't believe , it's your problem .
    I think not participate more . Unfairly lose my time .
    In the new "Waltz " map which you post , tell me were is the mountain who have the same high with the Red Mountain ? A proverb say : " Think twice to do once "
    I will post two maps to see the similarity between them .

    Attachment 725652Attachment 725653


    P.S.

    Joe , you are close to the point , but you are to the place were found the Ruth's body . Ruth when wrote " Veni ,Vedi " was South of Black Mountain between La Barge and Needle Canyon .
    Marius,

    I have had the Fever in my own way, and found that I cannot have the LDM, No One. It belongs to the Pima-Maricopa.
    I am resolved to that. If it is opened where I suspect it is, I would like to see it in the condition when it is opened.
    Otherwise I would like Someone to find it somewhere else, and I would share in their Happiness from my couch watching
    it all on TV. Of course it would be much better than the movie "National Treasure !" because All of US know it is Real the
    LDM.

    I am not Suspicious of You. You have done a lot of work to help me, but I don't understand your work. There are those
    who don't understand my work.

    I hope I have not offended you, as there have been those who have offended me. This caused much more work than I was
    applying for in that moment in "LDM why you can't get it !"

    Jack
    "Red Mountain and only "Red Mountain !" (Mt McDowell)
    I have no other interests in my Search for Clues linking the
    last Mine Peralta/Jacob Waltz/LDM, One and The Same.......

    drinkin' ale and kickin' ass since 1775, not necessarily in that order !

  14. #33
    us
    Feb 2011
    Central Pennsylvania, ex SoCal
    White's DFX
    195
    5 times
    [QUOTE=markmar;3108240]Hi Jack

    I don't have gold fever . I don't want to extract profits from this research . I want to help you to find the LDM following the clues . You believe how I don't know were is it ? I could tell you were it is , to see that i am right , but is the easy way .
    Is so easy to find it , but you are suspicious and you don't believe anything . Everyone , according to what he has seen in his dreams , the next day go to a different place . I don't insist to my theory , but i want to show you the correct location . If you don't believe , it's your problem .
    I think not participate more . Unfairly lose my time .
    In the new "Waltz " map which you post , tell me were is the mountain who have the same high with the Red Mountain ? A proverb say : " Think twice to do once "
    I will post two maps to see the similarity between them .

    Attachment 725652Attachment 725653


    Marius,

    Your pictures did not post.

    Quote: In the new "Waltz " map which you post , tell me were is the mountain who have the same high with the Red Mountain ?
    Answer: Weavers Needle is my guess at 2500+ ft, Red Mountain 2700+ ft.

    Jack
    "Red Mountain and only "Red Mountain !" (Mt McDowell)
    I have no other interests in my Search for Clues linking the
    last Mine Peralta/Jacob Waltz/LDM, One and The Same.......

    drinkin' ale and kickin' ass since 1775, not necessarily in that order !

  15. #34
    gr
    Oct 2012
    734
    135 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Joe

    I think Ruth's body was found on the east side of Black Top Mesa Mountain . I am right ?


    Marius
    Marius


  16. #35
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,272
    502 times
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Joe

    I think Ruth's body was found on the east side of Black Top Mesa Mountain . I am right ?


    Marius
    MM,

    In your opinion, is that the same as:

    "Joe , you are close to the point , but you are to the place were found the Ruth's body . Ruth when wrote " Veni ,Vedi " was South of Black Mountain between La Barge and Needle Canyon ."

    I must confess, I'm a little confused.

    Joe Ribaudo

  17. #36
    us
    Feb 2011
    Central Pennsylvania, ex SoCal
    White's DFX
    195
    5 times
    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Jack,

    "What is missing is Ruth never found the LDM. "Vici", there was no Conquered !"

    You, like everyone else assume that Ruth did not find the mine, or what he was looking for.

    Before he died, Gene Reynolds asked me if I had a picture of Weaver's Needle, from a claim marker we had found. I did, and he told me that was the view Ruth was looking for. This is the view of Weaver's Needle that Ruth was looking for:



    At this point, I believe Ruth did find "Vici", and was killed, and his body was moved to protect the find.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    Joe,

    In researching google looking for some pics of "Ruth" I can upon your T/N Thread "Adolph Ruth".

    Entry #38 shows the Skull from two (2) sides, entry & exit.

    Although I claim to have a basic biological background, and some claim I seem to be better at herpetology,
    I believe there has been a Huge forensic oversight. The Skull exposing the exit wound, Clearly shows that
    Ruth met up with a large knife/machete/miners pick across the face. Over his left frontal lobe across the
    nose area, & continuing down across the lower right face/mouth. This may account for the missing arm
    bones. Ruth protecting himself would have held his arms up in defense, as a heavy right handed cross
    slash came down through his hands and or arms. And may explain why the weapon did not fully penetrate.
    The area of the cut is a softer bone tissue. Where the body has movable joints/parts tendons must have
    softer tissue as cartilage to connect to the harder bone.

    There seems to be two (2) evidence marks at the entry hole 2 o'clock & 4 o'clock. This could have been
    made by a miners pick neck. Left frontal lobe seems to have additional damage.

    If this seems to be an option, could Ruth have been caught lying on the ground for such and attack ?

    Thanks So much Ales Hrklicka forensic expert of the Day, who did not want to get involved.

    Jack
    "Red Mountain and only "Red Mountain !" (Mt McDowell)
    I have no other interests in my Search for Clues linking the
    last Mine Peralta/Jacob Waltz/LDM, One and The Same.......

    drinkin' ale and kickin' ass since 1775, not necessarily in that order !

  18. #37
    gr
    Oct 2012
    734
    135 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Joe

    " South of Black Mountain ( not Black Top Mesa ) between La Barge and Needle Canyon " is the place were Ruth wrote on his notebook " Veni , Vidi " , because is the only place from where you can see the " Perfil " or " Ruth - Gonzales " map reversed . Namely the " Weaver's Needle " to the right and the other hight mountain ( Bluff Spring Mountain ) to the left . On the map the author didn't show The " Weaver's Needle " from the base but only the top and the other picture to the base is a part of the mountain in front of it . Is a trick to confuse .
    Maybe " Ruth was a greenhorn, tenderfoot " but he was smart and before reject the clues , he tryed to decode them . If he didn't killed , today not talking about were is the LDM .
    Last edited by markmar; Feb 19, 2013 at 04:05 PM.
    Marius


  19. #38
    Charter Member
    us
    May 2010
    texas
    494
    210 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Jack,

    "What is missing is Ruth never found the LDM. "Vici", there was no Conquered !"

    You, like everyone else assume that Ruth did not find the mine, or what he was looking for.

    Before he died, Gene Reynolds asked me if I had a picture of Weaver's Needle, from a claim marker we had found. I did, and he told me that was the view Ruth was looking for. This is the view of Weaver's Needle that Ruth was looking for:



    At this point, I believe Ruth did find "Vici", and was killed, and his body was moved to protect the find.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    Howdy Joe,

    Your beliefs are also assumptions just like all others, no different. Some assume "Vici", others don't. You take it further, and assume this area in the picture is what Ruth was looking for. Then you also assume that his body was moved to protect his find.

    If this is the area he was looking for, which is the cave 200 feet from there? This assumption can be cleared if there is no cave 200 feet from that marker.

    If the body was moved to protect the find, why would the note be in the pocket? This defeats the purpose of your assumption.

    In my opinion, even Ruth was assuming the maps he had would lead him to the LDM. It seems like he was trying to follow the Dutchman's directions, and the maps at the same time, instead of just following the maps to the Gonzales mines. Just assuming

    Homar

  20. #39
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,196
    825 times
    Jack, post a picture of his skull.

    Jose
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  21. #40
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
    2,242
    336 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp View Post
    Jack, post a picture of his skull.

    Jose
    Easier to just go to this thread for Adolph Ruth discussion and photos of the skull on page 2

    Adolph Ruth
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

 

 
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