CLUES TO THE LOST DUTCMAN MINE

[Somero]

I'm no Dutchman expert by a long shot, more the Stone Maps for me. But while looking for evidence of the Stone Map Trail we stumbled onto what I thought were some Dutchman clues. Never put much hope in finding the lost mine, but it never hurt's to look, unless you back into a Saguaro. Of course it's not just the clues you have to look for, but more what the geology of the area says, and sometimes it speaks quietly.

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[roadrunner]

I have only researched the forums here,on the dusa,and the ldm.
I want to buy a copy of the holmes manuscript the next time i am in the valley.
I have bought no books because to me they are just about fake,to expensive,except for the one that CJ recommended.
I really truthfully want to read facts,and solve a riddle.
I want the Gold,or ore.

I really do not like to sit and read different versions of tales that relate to the same thing.
In my opinion,why have 12 books,read 12 books,that say nothing about how to find the mine.
I have also asked people in this forum to give me there location by pm there spot of finding gold,a ledge,or a marker,or a pit,or what ever eles they have found,and no one will.They say it will come out in another book.
Can I ask you,in your opinion,where would you go,if you cant look for it any more. Or if you don't want to.

I will go pick up the rocks,the ore,the specimens,what ever is out there.
I will move what ever or do what ever I have to. Im not scared.
But no one will tell me.
But your right,there is probably a suqauro,and a lot of brush over the trail,and mine entrance(if it is not walled up),which,if it is,it wont be found unless by accident.
I also own a construction company,lay sewer line,ect.
I can go to a house where I put in a sewer line,12 months ago,and it looks like the ground has never been disturbed. And if you tried to dig it,would be compacted hard.

After I buy the holmes manuscript,if it is true,I will see what clues are in it.
Could you pm me,the only true clues that you know,are fact?

 

[Oroblanco]

I have only researched the forums here,on the dusa,and the ldm.
I want to buy a copy of the holmes manuscript the next time i am in the valley.
I have bought no books because to me they are just about fake,to expensive,except for the one that CJ recommended.
I really truthfully want to read facts,and solve a riddle.
I want the Gold,or ore.
I really do not like to sit and read different versions of tales that relate to the same thing.
In my opinion,why have 12 books,read 12 books,that say nothing about how to find the mine.
I have also asked people in this forum to give me there location by pm there spot of finding gold,a ledge,or a marker,or a pit,or what ever eles they have found,and no one will.They say it will come out in another book.
Can I ask you,in your opinion,where would you go,if you cant look for it any more. Or if you don't want to.
I will go pick up the rocks,the ore,the specimens,what ever is out there.
I will move what ever or do what ever I have to.Im not scared.
But no one will tell me.

If you want to limit the number of books, please include The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely, it is about the best source available, and Sims Ely unlike most of the authors, actually went to Julia, Reiney and even Dick Holmes to ask. When you read it you will soon realize that Sims Ely was no prospector too, for he did not recognize it when a source he talked to told of "winnowing" the gold with her husband (prior to Waltz finding the mine) and the gold being the size of "grains of wheat" which is clearly describing a method of mining a dry placer, not lode gold but Ely did not know that. Also, you do not have to buy a bunch of books, you can often borrow them from public libraries free.

It is not surprising that many treasure hunters are not willing to share their hard-won knowledge about where they would look for the lost mine. They want to get it themselves, and I am not different in that aspect. I don't want to mislead you either. I do not know the location of the mine so can't tell you that, and the spot where I think it is, I would like to go myself so have not told even my closest friends. That said, I would give this advice - think about the geology first; gold normally occurs in a quartz vein and that is what we are after for that is what Waltz had. These veins are formed by the actions of extremely heated waters, coming up from volcanic activity - not like lava, but like a water SO heavy with dissolved minerals that the instant it got under lower pressure and cooled, the minerals crystallized out and formed these veins in the cracks of rock that were already there. The best place to look for this kind of thing, known as "hydrothermic" deposits, are around volcanic calderas but not usually IN the calderas, and there are at least three large calderas in the Superstitions. The edges of these just happen to be where most of our treasure hunters have been looking too. Next - keep in mind that gold has been found along with silver and copper, in a number of places all along the eastern edge of the Superstition mountains, and gold was found in Goldfield in very rich veins. Today they don't consider Goldfield a part of the Superstitions but it was during the time of Waltz. So those are good clues. Next consider where gold can be panned out, for that gold has to be eroding out of the host rock somewhere "upstream" and uphill, and there are only a limited number of places in the Superstitions where you can pan out gold, like Fish creek, Tortilla creek, or Pinto creek. Pinto creek in particular is where the third source on Jacob Waltz (not Julia & Reiney, nor Holmes, but found in the Pioneer Interviews, where unemployed writers were put to work interviewing the old timers in the old folks homes in Arizona during the Great Depression) claims that Waltz really had his mine. Pinto creek drains off of Iron Mountain, which as the name implies has a good amount of iron in the rocks on the mountain, and the Spanish used to say that Iron is the "mother of Gold" for you often find the two metals together, just like you find gold in black sands which are basically a type of iron sulphate.

When you have picked out a likely creek or canyon to follow up, keep your eyes open for float quartz (float meaning it has 'floated" away from the source) as this could be traced back to the vein it came from. It would be wise to pan for gold along the way too, and do that as carefully as you can for you want to find any speck of it, in order to follow it back to the mine.

I would be wary about the clues, for they have become quite mixed up in over 100 years, but keep a list of them with you in case you see anything that seems to fit the clues, but I would not depend on that; stick to the geology first, clues second. In the stories from Waltz and the one from his partner Weiser, we have it that Waltz traveled to Adams Mill to get flour and supplies when their mule raided it, and while he was out, the Indians attacked and Weiser escaped, coming out near where Sacaton is today. This also gives us some information for if the mine were located near the western end of the mountains, then it would have been shorter for Waltz to go to Ft McDowell, but he chose to go to Adams Mill which is near Florence, which is also where Waltz was known to purchase supplies and his dry washer.

Anyway while Waltz could have easily concealed the mine entrance, and even covered up the vein where it was exposed below, he could not have removed every speck of gold that has washed down off the deposit over the millenia, nor the quartz float that would have eroded off the vein. These should leave us a trail that could lead you right back to the mine, with luck and hard work, and not having to depend on any clues or tales or books written by other treasure hunters.

My apologies for taking so many words to explain this, and also for not telling you my own "favorite" spot to look, but I would rather be honest with you than to mislead you. Some people might think it funny to send you off on a wild goose chase, to some place they know has nothing, just because they think it funny. Good luck to you amigo, I hope you find the Lost Dutchman mine - and please send me photos when you do! I get almost as big a kick out of it when someone else makes a great find, as if I did it myself.
Oroblanco

 

[Somero]

I have only researched the forums here,on the dusa,and the ldm.
I want to buy a copy of the holmes manuscript the next time i am in the valley.
I have bought no books because to me they are just about fake,to expensive,except for the one that CJ recommended.
I really truthfully want to read facts,and solve a riddle.
I want the Gold,or ore.

I really do not like to sit and read different versions of tales that relate to the same thing.
In my opinion,why have 12 books,read 12 books,that say nothing about how to find the mine.
I have also asked people in this forum to give me there location by pm there spot of finding gold,a ledge,or a marker,or a pit,or what ever eles they have found,and no one will.They say it will come out in another book.
Can I ask you,in your opinion,where would you go,if you cant look for it any more. Or if you don't want to.

I will go pick up the rocks,the ore,the specimens,what ever is out there.
I will move what ever or do what ever I have to. Im not scared.
But no one will tell me.
But your right,there is probably a suqauro,and a lot of brush over the trail,and mine entrance(if it is not walled up),which,if it is,it wont be found unless by accident.
I also own a construction company,lay sewer line,ect.
I can go to a house where I put in a sewer line,12 months ago,and it looks like the ground has never been disturbed. And if you tried to dig it,would be compacted hard.

After I buy the holmes manuscript,if it is true,I will see what clues are in it.
Could you pm me,the only true clues that you know,are fact?

RR

If I write a book can I do a chapter about you?

Then I met up with RR and Chuck, we were going to go gold panning but I persuaded them to check out this one area I thought was interesting. Insert details of the trip to the area, passing a Gila monster............................RR stumbled upon a small opening in the cliff face that looked like somebody had filled in. We started digging a bit till we found a log and decided to hook a chain around it and pull it all out with Chuck's Raptor.

With a loud crash and the scream of a Ford motor the opening was cleared. By this time it was about 4 in the afternoon and the sun was trying to work it's way through the dust and it seemed to be reflecting back out of the small barrel sized opening. No mistaking that golden shimmer blinding us.........................lots and lots of pyrite. But we made good money off the book LOL

Sorry if this sounds cynical, just meant for fun. I've met RR, and he makes a good point. How are your going to find a barrel size whole in all that. The proverbial needle in the hay field littered with nails.

 

[roadrunner]

Thanks again oroblanco.
I am going to copy and save some of what you wrote for my collection.
I live by Superior,am going to pinto creek,Iron mountain ect. There is a person here on tnet that knows of the story of the guy that had the gold ore ans was confronted by the mine person and it was dumped on the side of the road.
I have been out Queen Valley way panning. A person took me to a hill that had nothing but white quartz all over it.All float.
I know about florence because I go there from time to time.
I go to Superior all the time to work on houses.
I pass Peralta road and the superstitions every week.
I believe it is some where close to hewitt station,Iron mountain,Reavis Ranch, ect.
Supposibly wiser walked for 2 days,over 20 miles to get to the ranch.I forget the name.
Ok,I will get the holmes manuscript,and look for the book you mentioned,and the one CJ mentioned,unless his is not different.


I realize no one is going to reveal there location. But,if they are not going to do anything about it,why keep it secret. I wouldn't.
Why not let some one else get it,and get the credit for finding it.
I have read 2 books at the library in Superior,but they don't have nothing.
And like I said,most of it is fiction I believe. There have been 2 posts that I read that could give a set of directions from the board house in 3 sentences.
Why did not waltz just say that. Unless he did and no one heard him right.

And your right Somero. I am going to take a pic of the Supes from the sign for the Az Renaissance entrance. Just 1 pic to let people see just the size of what they see from there. And try and find a 2-3 foot square,covered up hole,that has been covered for 150 years.
Like I posted,I could take anyone to a sewer line I installed last year,and you could not see where I put it.


Somero,lets write the book. Lots of money in books.
But thats to short.We have to be looking and in the supes for weeks.Hardly no water,food,lots of snakes,cactus spines,storms,the Thunder Gods talking to us.

 

[Somero]

And your right Somero. I am going to take a pic of the Supes from the sign for the Az Renaissance entrance. Just 1 pic to let people see just the size of what they see from there. And try and find a 2-3 foot square,covered up hole,that has been covered for 150 years.
Like I posted,I could take anyone to a sewer line I installed last year,and you could not see where I put it.


Somero,lets write the book. Lots of money in books.
But thats to short.We have to be looking and in the supes for weeks.Hardly no water,food,lots of snakes,cactus spines,storms,the Thunder Gods talking to us.

I really don't think some folks who have never seen or been in those mountains can really appreciate how grand they are, definitely not a walk in the woods.

Your book idea sounds good........as long as it does not turn into some kinda "Fear and Loathing" story

 

[roadrunner]

When I call you let me know whats up with those marks in the rock you posted.
You could go with chuck and me to Iron mountain.Plus I got to tell you the story of the guy with the ore that the mine super made the guy throw out of his truck.
Maybe we can find the old trail,2 track,road up to the Reavis Ranch,towards iron Mountain.

I was going to suggest some indians in there but we should deal with facts only.

 

[Somero]

If you click on the picture it should give you the option to make it larger, click it 3 times, they are actually quartz veins. That section was exposed while the rest of the area was covered with what you see at the edge of the photo.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy RR,

If you happen to run into an indian trying to find his bearing on a gps receiver, I don't see why that would not be a fact. Just make sure he is not Apache in the book, some would not believe it.

Homar

 

[sgtfda]

I've watched several relatives die from lung issues. They don't talk on their death bed. Why do you think a drywasher was needed? Because that is the tool needed to recover gold in a area the Dutchman was working. Wonder if the old man picked up a case of Valley Fever drywashing Many do.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

When I call you let me know whats up with those marks in the rock you posted.
You could go with chuck and me to Iron mountain.Plus I got to tell you the story of the guy with the ore that the mine super made the guy throw out of his truck.
Maybe we can find the old trail,2 track,road up to the Reavis Ranch,towards iron Mountain.

I was going to suggest some indians in there but we should deal with facts only.

story huh?
well, don't forget to tell your compatriots that the ore dumped on the ground belongs to magma copper company.

 

[Loke]

...
That said, I would give this advice - think about the geology first; gold normally occurs in a quartz vein and that is what we are after for that is what Waltz had. These veins are formed by the actions of extremely heated waters, coming up from volcanic activity - not like lava, but like a water SO heavy with dissolved minerals that the instant it got under lower pressure and cooled, the minerals crystallized out and formed these veins in the cracks of rock that were already there.
etc etc etc
Oroblanco

Oro - I think those are the best directions I have ever seen!! (I don't mean just the li'l excerpt, but your whole post).

And hey - you wouldn't even tell ME where you think it is? Shame on you!! (just kiddin' of course - if anyone ever found it, I'd be the first in the queue of congratulants!!)

 

[cactusjumper]

Guys,

Personally, I would MD the ravines coming down into Pinto Creek, paying particular attention to any natural gold traps. Kind of a modern-day high-banking.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

I could be mistaken but Pinto Creek is under claim?

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Wagner Mine (Wagner group of claims; Wagner Tungsten group; Pinto Tungsten Mine; Pinto Mining Co. claims; Friend in Need vein; Red Bird claims), Pinto Creek, Granite Mountain area, Gila Co., Arizona, USA

Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Waltz at Pinto Creek

Bronx Mine (Bronx property; Bronx Copper property), Pinto Creek, Top of the World area, Pinal Mountains District, Pinal Mts, Gila Co., Arizona, USA

 

[roadrunner]

story huh?
well, don't forget to tell your compatriots that the ore dumped on the ground belongs to magma copper company.

I am not calling your account a story as in made up.
I dont have your permission to tell your facts either.Or your story. What ever you want to call it.Incident then?
If I have any ore in my possession at my house I bought it at Quartzsite at the rock and gem show.
I bet it was picked up anyway.

I have also driven from the Perlite plant to Queen Valley and found no road to turn up to Reevis ranch,.which is now I believe,Reevis Mountain School.The only way to get there is from route 88, and Ranch Road,or JB Ranch Road.
I am not saying you did not do it at one time.I just cant find a way by a 2 wheel drive truck.
And some of the Ranch Road is through washes.

 

[roadrunner]

I could be mistaken but Pinto Creek is under claim?

I just checked on my Gold maps cd and it show 2 abandoned claims to the sw,but nothing in the Pinto Creek area.Unless it is mine property which is not listed under claims.

 

[roadrunner]

Wagner Mine (Wagner group of claims; Wagner Tungsten group; Pinto Tungsten Mine; Pinto Mining Co. claims; Friend in Need vein; Red Bird claims), Pinto Creek, Granite Mountain area, Gila Co., Arizona, USA

Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Waltz at Pinto Creek

Bronx Mine (Bronx property; Bronx Copper property), Pinto Creek, Top of the World area, Pinal Mountains District, Pinal Mts, Gila Co., Arizona, USA

Those are all around the area past top of the world,towards Miami.
I am talking about the Pinto Creek to the SE of Iron mountain.The link you posted is for Gila county,the Pinto Creek in Gila.
I am talking about the Pinto here in Pinal,by Superior.

Here we go again,which part of Pinto creek was Waltz in?
Pinal County,or Gila county. And quess what,Devils canyon,and top of the world are no easy climbing back in the days either.
Even on mule,or horse. And,before 60 was put in,and a tunnel through the mountain,people in Globe had to use the Apache trail to get to phoenix. A very long drive.
So if Waltz was in Gila county Pinto Creek,He could have gone by way of the Trail(88),or,come through the pinal mouintains,and down Stonemans grade towards the silver King,and Pinal.
The area I just posted about is in Pinal county from US Gold Maps.SE of Iron Mountain.

Pippin,I dont remember if you told me the incident in a PM,or you posted it on this forum.Which was it.
If a PM. I was not going to divulge all kinds of info about your incident. Did it happen to you,or some one else,I honestly don't remember.

 

[roadrunner]

Guys,

Personally, I would MD the ravines coming down into Pinto Creek, paying particular attention to any natural gold traps. Kind of a modern-day high-banking.

Good luck,

Joe

Which Pinto Creek do you believe. The one here by Iron Mountain,or the part under Pinto Creek bridge,Past top of the world,on the other side of the Pinals from superior after you go through the tunnel,and past top of the world,and down the mountains toward Miami.
Pinal county,or Gila County?
Which or where was Waltz?
I am assuming by Iron Mountain since that is the map I have of that says where Waltz carpenter searched.

 

[sgtfda]

I was referring to the bridge area