Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[azdave35]

So why does this shadow person not step forward, or at least allow his friends to share his name ?
There must be a good reason, since a few at least, believe he alone solved the great mystery of the Lost Dutchman Mine.
Perhaps he missed that golden opportunity, in the showing of his discovery to the others, and was no longer able to tell his story.
Was he threatened or worse ? Could it be that there really IS a lot more to the saga of the Silver Chief, that if made public, would place other lives in jeopardy ?
It's been said that one of those he shared his discovery with, eventually organized a group to open that mine and to divide what they found amongst themselves.
Did the shadow person receive a share as well ?
Or was he betrayed ?
Gassler ?...... Shade ?......or maybe even Gassler AND ultimately Shade as well.

how do you know he hasn't already stepped forward?.....there is alot of info available that never hits tnet...most of the ldm hunters i know dont get on tnet

 

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[Normsel]

Buy a lottery ticket your odds are better than finding a mine that never was. Jacob Waltz was a phony

 

[cactusjumper]

So why does this shadow person not step forward, or at least allow his friends to share his name ?
There must be a good reason, since a few at least, believe he alone solved the great mystery of the Lost Dutchman Mine.
Perhaps he missed that golden opportunity, in the showing of his discovery to the others, and was no longer able to tell his story.
Was he threatened or worse ? Could it be that there really IS a lot more to the saga of the Silver Chief, that if made public, would place other lives in jeopardy ?
It's been said that one of those he shared his discovery with, eventually organized a group to open that mine and to divide what they found amongst themselves.
Did the shadow person receive a share as well ?
Or was he betrayed ?
Gassler ?...... Shade ?......or maybe even Gassler AND ultimately Shade as well.

Wayne,

I have serious doubts that any threats were made, or that other lives would be placed in jeopardy.

I don't know, for sure, the answers to your questions.

Your knowing all those answers would not help you in your own search, nor anyone else for that matter. Most serious Dutch Hunters have a pretty good idea where Jake's mine is, according to their own research. Nothing anyone does or finds can change their minds. I would probably place you in that category.

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Howdy Joe,

It's clearly not the right profile. Many believe that the profile map fits in different places, but this is not so. It fits in one place only, that is the beauty of a profile map, if it was captured at the spot. If it was done by memory, it may be a little harder to find. I have never tried to find that spot because I have never been in those mountains. This can not be done with g.e., but if you know where Weaver's Needle is, the South Summit, Four Peaks, and a Cavern with a house in that area, it should be easy to find.

That profile is seen from the South looking North, with Weaver's Needle to the left. It has "la cima mas alta en medio" the highest summit in the middle. That is Four Peaks in the far North, seen between what looks like a head, and the South summit.

Homar

Homar

ESCARDADIA in Catalanian Spanish means " escalate" or " increase " . That means how the head profile should be the " LA CIMA MAS ALTA " in this case , and should be put " EN MEDIO DE " between CAVERNA CON CASA and TUNEL .
The other landmarks are only for orientation and some are close and some afar .
The Perfil map without the crypting words , would looks like this map below



So , in the pic I posted with the rock profile head ( post #1385 ) , is located the stone roofless two rooms house and the tunnel , which of course is not visible because are too small .

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar

ESCARDADIA in Catalanian Spanish means " escalate" or " increase " . That means how the head profile should be the " LA CIMA MAS ALTA " in this case , and should be put " EN MEDIO DE " between CAVERNA CON CASA and TUNEL .
The other landmarks are only for orientation and some are close and some afar .
The Perfil map without the crypting words , would looks like this map below

View attachment 1535315

So , in the pic I posted with the rock profile head ( post #1385 ) , is located the stone roofless two rooms house and the tunnel , which of course is not visible because are too small .

Howdy my good friend Marius,

If thats the way you see it, I have no problem with your reasoning. I however I believe that the word "Escardadia" is Peralta for tailings.

There are many words that don't make it to the dictionaries because they don't get used enough, however many understand them. Some posters tend to make up words every now and then, and we know what they mean, even if they are not in a dictionary.

The word "Escarda" means to weed, or separate, such as to separate the wheat from the chaff. "Anda y escarda el trigo" go separate the wheat from the chaff. "Voy a escardar" I am going to weed, or separate. "Estoy escardando" I am weeding or separating. So in my honest opinion, "Escardadia" would mean what remains after the weeding, or separating, such as weed cuttings, chaff, or tailings.

Since the map does not lead to a garden, but to a mine, and the "Escardadia" is shown below the "hoyo", pit or hole, I would say it is safe to say that is means tailings.

Homar

Homar

 

[393stroker]

Howdy my good friend Marius,

If thats the way you see it, I have no problem with your reasoning. I however I believe that the word "Escardadia" is Peralta for tailings.

There are many words that don't make it to the dictionaries because they don't get used enough, however many understand them. Some posters tend to make up words every now and then, and we know what they mean, even if they are not in a dictionary.

The word "Escarda" means to weed, or separate, such as to separate the wheat from the chaff. "Anda y escarda el trigo" go separate the wheat from the chaff. "Voy a escardar" I am going to weed, or separate. "Estoy escardando" I am weeding or separating. So in my honest opinion, "Escardadia" would mean what remains after the weeding, or separating, such as weed cuttings, chaff, or tailings.

Since the map does not lead to a garden, but to a mine, and the "Escardadia" is shown below the "hoyo", pit or hole, I would say it is safe to say that is means tailings.

Homar

Homar

Maybe it means to change your direction. Like, Go past the rock face and take the next canyon up to the mine.

 

[wrmickel1]

Separate the wheat from the chaff is a biblical meaning,

Babymick1

 

[Oroblanco]

how do you know he hasn't already stepped forward?.....there is alot of info available that never hits tnet...most of the ldm hunters i know dont get on tnet

It is easy to see WHY they don't care to get into the, shall we call it "controversies"?

 

[markmar]

Howdy my good friend Marius,

If thats the way you see it, I have no problem with your reasoning. I however I believe that the word "Escardadia" is Peralta for tailings.

There are many words that don't make it to the dictionaries because they don't get used enough, however many understand them. Some posters tend to make up words every now and then, and we know what they mean, even if they are not in a dictionary.

The word "Escarda" means to weed, or separate, such as to separate the wheat from the chaff. "Anda y escarda el trigo" go separate the wheat from the chaff. "Voy a escardar" I am going to weed, or separate. "Estoy escardando" I am weeding or separating. So in my honest opinion, "Escardadia" would mean what remains after the weeding, or separating, such as weed cuttings, chaff, or tailings.

Since the map does not lead to a garden, but to a mine, and the "Escardadia" is shown below the "hoyo", pit or hole, I would say it is safe to say that is means tailings.

Homar

Homar

Hi Homar

But think it logical , if we would work some rich mines in secret , we would throw the tailings under our mines ?
There are many examples where Spanish or Mexican miners threw their tailings afar from their mines .

 

[markmar]

And Homar , in the crop picture below , you can see how the profile's hill in the highest in the map's region .



And if is necessary , I give you my word how in the pic , the profile " looks " at the stone house ( my avatar ) .

 

[JohnWhite]

Howdy my good friend Marius,

If thats the way you see it, I have no problem with your reasoning. I however I believe that the word "Escardadia" is Peralta for tailings.

There are many words that don't make it to the dictionaries because they don't get used enough, however many understand them. Some posters tend to make up words every now and then, and we know what they mean, even if they are not in a dictionary.

The word "Escarda" means to weed, or separate, such as to separate the wheat from the chaff. "Anda y escarda el trigo" go separate the wheat from the chaff. "Voy a escardar" I am going to weed, or separate. "Estoy escardando" I am weeding or separating. So in my honest opinion, "Escardadia" would mean what remains after the weeding, or separating, such as weed cuttings, chaff, or tailings.

Since the map does not lead to a garden, but to a mine, and the "Escardadia" is shown below the "hoyo", pit or hole, I would say it is safe to say that is means tailings.

Homar

Homar

I wonder if the Jesuits or Spanish misspelled escardadia on purpose to mislead some who came across the Perfil document...What IF they actually meant escarbadia

Just a thought...

 

[deducer]

Hi Homar

But think it logical , if we would work some rich mines in secret , we would throw the tailings under our mines ?
There are many examples where Spanish or Mexican miners threw their tailings afar from their mines .

Good point, Marius- but have you thought about the fact that at the height of it's being exploited (the LDM), secrecy wasn't really a concern because back then, they only had the Apache to contend with, and the Apache kept their distance until the peons really overstepped the unspoken boundary. This was an immense operation that was impossible to hide, anyway. I have on hand a very interesting manuscript from Syn Doad, describing the depth and scope of this operation.

This would fit in with the fact that the earliest accidental discoverers of the LDM were able to just pick rich ore up right from the ground, as with, for example, Doc Thorne and the others.

 

[Cubfan64]

Good point, Marius- but have you thought about the fact that at the height of it's being exploited (the LDM), secrecy wasn't really a concern because back then, they only had the Apache to contend with, and the Apache kept their distance until. This was an immense operation that was impossible to hide, anyway. I have on hand a very interesting manuscript from Syn Doad, describing the depth and scope of this operation.

This would fit in with the fact that the earliest accidental discoverers of the LDM were able to just pick rich ore up right from the ground, as with, for example, Doc Thorne and the others.

Ok deducer - you have my attention. Can you share more?

 

[deducer]

Ok deducer - you have my attention. Can you share more?

Regarding the manuscript? Let me check with the person who has it, to see if it's okay to post excerpts.

 

[coazon de oro]

Hi Homar

But think it logical , if we would work some rich mines in secret , we would throw the tailings under our mines ?
There are many examples where Spanish or Mexican miners threw their tailings afar from their mines .

I say that would depend on the type of mine. The Perfil map seems to be for the Pit Mine that was 75 feet across the top opening. Too much worthless material to haul away. It was getting harder to get to the gold, that is why the tunnel was made.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

Good point, Marius- but have you thought about the fact that at the height of it's being exploited (the LDM), secrecy wasn't really a concern because back then, they only had the Apache to contend with, and the Apache kept their distance until the peons really overstepped the unspoken boundary. This was an immense operation that was impossible to hide, anyway. I have on hand a very interesting manuscript from Syn Doad, describing the depth and scope of this operation.

This would fit in with the fact that the earliest accidental discoverers of the LDM were able to just pick rich ore up right from the ground, as with, for example, Doc Thorne and the others.

Howdy deducer,

Immense operation it was indeed, I am still not sure if the Peraltas were working for the Jesuits, or just for themselves. I also wonder if they were the Thunder Gods themselves. With powder blasts going off every now and then in different mines, something that was new to the indians? Seems they were never bothered by the Apache until the masacare that I believe happened when the Apache were made partners in the Mexican/American war.

Homar

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Oroblanco mi amigo,


I know you like that blood and guts Cavalry stuff…here is a link to Lonnie Underhill’s Master’s thesis on the First Arizona Volunteers…

http://arizona.openrepository.com/arizona/bitstream/10150/566505/1/AZU_TD_BOX282_E9791_1979_106.pdf


Now I know a lot of you on this forum don’t like to read…don’t click on that link…it’s like 100 pages of “ten-hut, column left, march” Army stuff. Here’s the condensed version:


A bunch of miners head into the Hassayamp and Bradshaw country in 1863…the locals (Yavapai’s, etc) think they’ve hit the lottery because these miners have livestock, and running livestock off just happens to be their job. It’s what they do. If you become a nuisance while they work, they will kill you. Naturally, the miners become alarmed. A bunch of miners, including Jacob Waltz, sign a petition…well, we all know that part so I’ll skip it…in a strange twist of bureaucratic nonchalance, the Army does something that makes sense, albeit about 2 years late…they allow the state to raise some troops…those troops are all Mexicans, Pimas and Maricopas. These guys make the area safe for miners. The Army, realizing their mistake, disbands said troops soon after. The End.

The moral of the story is the Apache Wars go on for years until General Crook shows up and essentially does the same thing the territorial Govt. tried years earlier.

 

[markmar]

Good point, Marius- but have you thought about the fact that at the height of it's being exploited (the LDM), secrecy wasn't really a concern because back then, they only had the Apache to contend with, and the Apache kept their distance until the peons really overstepped the unspoken boundary. This was an immense operation that was impossible to hide, anyway. I have on hand a very interesting manuscript from Syn Doad, describing the depth and scope of this operation.

This would fit in with the fact that the earliest accidental discoverers of the LDM were able to just pick rich ore up right from the ground, as with, for example, Doc Thorne and the others.

deducer

They threw the tailings about 400 yards afar , high on a mountainside which is not in view from the main surrounding canyons .
When they were mining only winter season and had to go afar from that region in the summer time , I believe some hidding tactics took place at that time . Without claims records , the jumps would been a visible risk .
Unless they acted under a gov protection or a royal land grant .

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

That he did.....

View attachment 1532451

it's a good thread for those with questions.

Regards that "forum screen cap" of poster 'Ron'...

Where is that from? He is purported to be a 'part timer' who joined whatever forum this is from on December 31, 1969.

WOW!!

Somebody must have had a lot of gold to be operating the internet back then while I was still using a slide ruler. Forget the DLM - hook me up with these hi tech folk!!

 

[somehiker]

Regards that "forum screen cap" of poster 'Ron'...

Where is that from? He is purported to be a 'part timer' who joined whatever forum this is from on December 31, 1969.

WOW!!

Somebody must have had a lot of gold to be operating the internet back then while I was still using a slide ruler. Forget the DLM - hook me up with these hi tech folk!!

As with your "mormon stope" theory, it helps to follow and understand as much of the known history as possible.
That website suffered a dns hack a few years ago and many prior discussions were lost or corrupted.
Some were able to be recovered by admin., but chronological dates and most of the original poster's ID's were not.
What was recovered, was re-posted using the generic handle "count" and that "1969" date as a "common" to all of them.
"Ron" was used where admin knew that Ron Feldman was the original poster.......was his website after all.
For those of us involved prior to the hack, it makes it easier to follow the threads and know who originally made the posts.