Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
True Jon, but were they of the standard sized adobe bricks ?
Last edited:
Video - Adventures in the Superstition Wilderness
- Thread starter RG1976
- Start date
Old
Hero Member
My take on sorting out the truth from fiction in the legend.
Little to nothing is known on Jake’s early life. Some say he was trained in engineering and geology. I find that hard to believe. If so, I believe there would be some records to that effect. None has been found.
It is said, and I believe it to be so, that Waltz first experience in gold mining was in North Carolina and shortly thereafter, in Georgia. In the 1850’s he travels to California to work the gold fields there. All of these would have been, most likely, placer workings.
In the 1860’s we find him in the Arizona Territory. Some say traveling there with the Peeples group, although I find no supporting evidence of that assertion. I discount that information as highly suspect. I find it more likely he traveled there with friends he made during his time in California. Most notably, the Starar brothers.
During his early years in Arizona he prospected with some success using the methods first learned in the Carolinas and the placer deposits in California. We have documentation he was instrumental in the discovery and sale of 3 successful mines in the Bradshaw area.
In his waning years round or about 1868 he established a homestead of 160 acres in the fledging town of Phoenix. His friends, the Starar brothers and other acquaintances were nearby. He settled in to a light farming operation of chickens, fruits and vegetables. As with many of us today….he continued to hobby prospect. Making short trips into the mountains east of Phoenix.
I believe during this time he used the placer mining methods he had learned as a young man. In following the open and dry creek beds he was lead further and further into the mountains in search of the source. We know he asked a Florence carpenter to construct a dry washer (circa 1872). It is said he indicated he wanted to work the area of Pinto Creek further up the watershed to find the source of his placer.
There can be little doubt this was prior to his big find. No one would raise an eyebrow at small exchanges of gold dust and small nuggets. This was not unusual and hardly the kind of thing to spur stalkers and high jackers. That would come later.
And so it went from 1872 until the mid 1880’s. Waltz would tend his chickens and vegetables and peddle them to the town folk and mining camps. Still his hobby and live long yearning to follow the gold trail drew him to the mountains for short so journeys. We are told he mostly traveled alone but there are stories of friends sometimes accompanying him. One such is the story of Weiser. Whether or not the man actually existed I can not say with certainty. But the story is told that on one such trip the mule pitched into a fit and tore up the camp destroying the supplies. Weiser is said to have stayed behind while Waltz returned to Florence to re-supply.
Regardless if truth or fiction, the relationship between Waltz’s territory of interest and the town of Florence can not be understated. To follow Waltz’ trail I believe all points start from Florence. To me, it’s a clue of more significance than any other.
In 1878 we find Waltz beginning to prepare for his final days. He makes the agreement with Andrew Starar to secure food, lodging and care for the remainder of his life. Unforeseen by Waltz, Andrew Starar would not live to fill that promise. Andrew Starar died in 1883. By all accounts Jacob Waltz, though of advanced age, was still a healthy and spry man. A rarity among miners of his vintage and time frame.
It is during this period, from 1878 to 1884 that I believe Old Jake found the source of that placer gold.
The following account comes to us via Tom Kollenborn relating the account (Circa 1884) of the daughter of a merchant from Florence…
“…I recall the old man the day he came into our family store for supplies. The skin of his face was parched and dry from the desert sun and hard as leather. His beard was almost snow white and somewhat stained by tobacco below his chin. His hands were coarse and callused revealing many decades of hard work. He no longer stood erect, for his age was showing. His clothes were dusty and torn but neatly in place…No one at first paid him any attention until he went to pay for his supplies. In his wrinkled hand was a small cowhide poke. He loosened the strings and poured onto the counter yellow gold in a matrix of white quartz...” (Source: Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time - Swanson/Kollenborn).
Let’s think a bit about human nature. I believe fully that Jacob Waltz did discover a mine (or a cache) of great riches sometime between 1878 and 1884.
I do not give credence to the theory that he held gold ore he had high graded from previous work locations. Nor do I believe the gold ore found in the candlebox was his life savings account of specimens collected here and there over his life time.
That is contrary to the actions the man took to secure his future. He would not have in 1878 traded his worldly possessions for $50 and a promise if he had the equivalent of a quarter million dollars in today’s money at his disposal. It’s a leap of faith and a disregard of how he conducted his life to think that.
He lived frugally and simply. Not unlike elderly German immigrants I remember from my youth. Well educated, determined, tough as nails, strong willed, hardworking, and frugal living to a fault.
I believe exactly what is written and attributed to him. In his later years he found, not one, but two old Spanish mines. There are two. He said he found the second one from the hammer sounds of someone working it. They are 1.4 miles apart. That’s the right distance to hear but still be isolated from one another. I believe he found them in the area of Roger’s Spring in a higher elevation than the spring. He said he would take the mule(s) down to the spring to water. That’s right. He said the evening sun would shine into the shaft. It would from that location. He said you could see the trail from the mine but you could not see the mine from the trail. That works. He said there was a two room adobe in a cave across the canyon from the mine. There is. He said no cowboy would find his mine. Meaning you can’t ride your horse to it. You can’t. He said no miner would find his mine. That’s right. Its not a likely spot. He didn’t say a prospector wouldn’t. He said a miner…….there is/was no open shaft per se. He said there was a brushy tough entrance trail. That’s right. He said he could point its direction from the Board house. You can.
Are there other areas that may fit as well? Sure there are. But they are not in the area where he spent his time and was seen coming and going from. Those that were closest in time to him searched there. That was before the legend was clouded with thrice told tales, deceptions and interwoven with different legends.
Until its found all areas are fair game. But this is my best guess based on what I feel is believable vs. what I think is distortion.
Little to nothing is known on Jake’s early life. Some say he was trained in engineering and geology. I find that hard to believe. If so, I believe there would be some records to that effect. None has been found.
It is said, and I believe it to be so, that Waltz first experience in gold mining was in North Carolina and shortly thereafter, in Georgia. In the 1850’s he travels to California to work the gold fields there. All of these would have been, most likely, placer workings.
In the 1860’s we find him in the Arizona Territory. Some say traveling there with the Peeples group, although I find no supporting evidence of that assertion. I discount that information as highly suspect. I find it more likely he traveled there with friends he made during his time in California. Most notably, the Starar brothers.
During his early years in Arizona he prospected with some success using the methods first learned in the Carolinas and the placer deposits in California. We have documentation he was instrumental in the discovery and sale of 3 successful mines in the Bradshaw area.
In his waning years round or about 1868 he established a homestead of 160 acres in the fledging town of Phoenix. His friends, the Starar brothers and other acquaintances were nearby. He settled in to a light farming operation of chickens, fruits and vegetables. As with many of us today….he continued to hobby prospect. Making short trips into the mountains east of Phoenix.
I believe during this time he used the placer mining methods he had learned as a young man. In following the open and dry creek beds he was lead further and further into the mountains in search of the source. We know he asked a Florence carpenter to construct a dry washer (circa 1872). It is said he indicated he wanted to work the area of Pinto Creek further up the watershed to find the source of his placer.
There can be little doubt this was prior to his big find. No one would raise an eyebrow at small exchanges of gold dust and small nuggets. This was not unusual and hardly the kind of thing to spur stalkers and high jackers. That would come later.
And so it went from 1872 until the mid 1880’s. Waltz would tend his chickens and vegetables and peddle them to the town folk and mining camps. Still his hobby and live long yearning to follow the gold trail drew him to the mountains for short so journeys. We are told he mostly traveled alone but there are stories of friends sometimes accompanying him. One such is the story of Weiser. Whether or not the man actually existed I can not say with certainty. But the story is told that on one such trip the mule pitched into a fit and tore up the camp destroying the supplies. Weiser is said to have stayed behind while Waltz returned to Florence to re-supply.
Regardless if truth or fiction, the relationship between Waltz’s territory of interest and the town of Florence can not be understated. To follow Waltz’ trail I believe all points start from Florence. To me, it’s a clue of more significance than any other.
In 1878 we find Waltz beginning to prepare for his final days. He makes the agreement with Andrew Starar to secure food, lodging and care for the remainder of his life. Unforeseen by Waltz, Andrew Starar would not live to fill that promise. Andrew Starar died in 1883. By all accounts Jacob Waltz, though of advanced age, was still a healthy and spry man. A rarity among miners of his vintage and time frame.
It is during this period, from 1878 to 1884 that I believe Old Jake found the source of that placer gold.
The following account comes to us via Tom Kollenborn relating the account (Circa 1884) of the daughter of a merchant from Florence…
“…I recall the old man the day he came into our family store for supplies. The skin of his face was parched and dry from the desert sun and hard as leather. His beard was almost snow white and somewhat stained by tobacco below his chin. His hands were coarse and callused revealing many decades of hard work. He no longer stood erect, for his age was showing. His clothes were dusty and torn but neatly in place…No one at first paid him any attention until he went to pay for his supplies. In his wrinkled hand was a small cowhide poke. He loosened the strings and poured onto the counter yellow gold in a matrix of white quartz...” (Source: Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time - Swanson/Kollenborn).
Let’s think a bit about human nature. I believe fully that Jacob Waltz did discover a mine (or a cache) of great riches sometime between 1878 and 1884.
I do not give credence to the theory that he held gold ore he had high graded from previous work locations. Nor do I believe the gold ore found in the candlebox was his life savings account of specimens collected here and there over his life time.
That is contrary to the actions the man took to secure his future. He would not have in 1878 traded his worldly possessions for $50 and a promise if he had the equivalent of a quarter million dollars in today’s money at his disposal. It’s a leap of faith and a disregard of how he conducted his life to think that.
He lived frugally and simply. Not unlike elderly German immigrants I remember from my youth. Well educated, determined, tough as nails, strong willed, hardworking, and frugal living to a fault.
I believe exactly what is written and attributed to him. In his later years he found, not one, but two old Spanish mines. There are two. He said he found the second one from the hammer sounds of someone working it. They are 1.4 miles apart. That’s the right distance to hear but still be isolated from one another. I believe he found them in the area of Roger’s Spring in a higher elevation than the spring. He said he would take the mule(s) down to the spring to water. That’s right. He said the evening sun would shine into the shaft. It would from that location. He said you could see the trail from the mine but you could not see the mine from the trail. That works. He said there was a two room adobe in a cave across the canyon from the mine. There is. He said no cowboy would find his mine. Meaning you can’t ride your horse to it. You can’t. He said no miner would find his mine. That’s right. Its not a likely spot. He didn’t say a prospector wouldn’t. He said a miner…….there is/was no open shaft per se. He said there was a brushy tough entrance trail. That’s right. He said he could point its direction from the Board house. You can.
Are there other areas that may fit as well? Sure there are. But they are not in the area where he spent his time and was seen coming and going from. Those that were closest in time to him searched there. That was before the legend was clouded with thrice told tales, deceptions and interwoven with different legends.
Until its found all areas are fair game. But this is my best guess based on what I feel is believable vs. what I think is distortion.
captain1965
Full Member
Didn't see any brick in the flood pics as far as I remember. Just a foundation and fireplace remained. Just sizable stones
Jon
azblackbird
Sr. Member
Hey Ryan... sounds like you're starting to want to become more of a prospector rather than a fairytale chaser. If that's the case, here's a few links to help get you started.
This site will give you an idea of some of the minerals found in the Supers and surrounding areas. It's a good first start to doing any research. This will get you in the ballpark. Just remember, what's in this database is just a smidgeon of what's actually out there. Not all miners and prospectors shared their findings with the department.
Naturally you're gonna want detailed geology maps for further research and referencing the areas that are of interest to you. Here's a link to help get you started in that department. Learn how to read, study, and interpret these maps and you'll see a common theme in many of the mineral bearing areas.
Once you nail down a few areas that interest you, here's another site that will help you research even deeper. The material in this database will help you become familiar with the actual geology and mineral content of the various mines and prospects that reported their findings to the department.
Of course it never hurts to read everything you can on the history of Arizona mining. Here's a couple bulletins that I've always found to be interesting.
http://www.azgs.az.gov/Mineral Scans/gold_bull137_ocr.pdf
http://www.azgs.az.gov/Mineral Scans/gold_bull168_ocr.pdf
Once you've found some areas that interest you and have read up on the history and geology of the area, you're gonna want to see if anybody else has similar interests as you and may have beat you to the punch by claiming you ground. The BLM is the end all be all for mining claims here in AZ. If your claim isn't recorded with them, then you don't have a legal claim.
However... just to be sure, you're going to want to verify with the local county recorders if there's been any recent filings on the areas your interested in. Since you're looking in the Supers and surrounding areas, here's the relevant links you'll use to find that information. Besides, what's cool about the recorders information is that most claim filers include location maps, and many even include GPS coords so you know exactly where not to tread.
Recorded Document Search
Document Search - Pinal County
Last but not least. Good ole' Google Earth. I use GE extensively in mapping out my access points to areas I'm prospecting. If there are no trails to my prospects, then I overlay my topo maps to find the path of least resistance to my prospects and then make my own routes on my GPS. The information I provided should help you get you started. There's tons and tons more available, but I'll leave it up to you to figure all that out.
BTW... from the sounds of it, you're probably going to hook up with a member here who is going to take you out to this area. Do me a favor and post up your nuggets when you find them. Good Luck!
captain1965
Full Member
I'm going to take the next two weeks off. Good luck hunting.
Oroblanco
Gold Member
- Jan 21, 2005
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RG1976 wrote
OK you asked, you are wrong. There is absolutely solid documentation that Dick Holmes owned the gold ore that matchbox was made from. According to his own words, he got it from Waltz. He spent the rest of his life searching for that mine, as did his son Brownie, and his partner Clay Wurst which brings us to today. It is as authentic as you are going to get, until you find the mine that gold came from.
I am not going to post what I had written because clearly, if I write too many words it is a waste of my time. However I will say this, you are attempting to judge the 1891 flood by a recent one. Floods are very different, no two are alike. One might come as a torrent and sweep everything in its path, another might come as slow rising waters that damages things by simply getting everything soaked. Here is a photo of the 1891 Phoenix flood:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6QWrwuZyUBs/U6meoV7A0sI/AAAAAAAAOhU/bhQ8h184SQE/s1600/Flood_of_1891.jpg
If you take a look at it that does not resemble the flood photos posted of the modern flood. In fact it looks like it was much less violent. It is entirely possible that Waltz's home was DAMAGED enough to make it unsafe to live in, without being WIPED from the earth. Don't make too many assumptions about things.
Last bit but if you ever hope to find the lost mine, you should search with a positive attitude, not the skeptical mind that is so useful in sorting out things. It makes a real difference, and might help you NOT walk right past it. If you are filled with doubts that the mine ever existed, you might as well stay home or hike for the exercise instead of wasting your time filming something you do not believe exist.
Old - great post < http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...s-superstition-wilderness-12.html#post4503172 > the "like" was not a strong enough compliment. 
I won't bore anyone further, since clearly most everyone here has already made up their minds so debate is not helpful. Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Or not, as the case may be.
Oroblanco
OK you asked, you are wrong. There is absolutely solid documentation that Dick Holmes owned the gold ore that matchbox was made from. According to his own words, he got it from Waltz. He spent the rest of his life searching for that mine, as did his son Brownie, and his partner Clay Wurst which brings us to today. It is as authentic as you are going to get, until you find the mine that gold came from.
I am not going to post what I had written because clearly, if I write too many words it is a waste of my time. However I will say this, you are attempting to judge the 1891 flood by a recent one. Floods are very different, no two are alike. One might come as a torrent and sweep everything in its path, another might come as slow rising waters that damages things by simply getting everything soaked. Here is a photo of the 1891 Phoenix flood:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6QWrwuZyUBs/U6meoV7A0sI/AAAAAAAAOhU/bhQ8h184SQE/s1600/Flood_of_1891.jpg
If you take a look at it that does not resemble the flood photos posted of the modern flood. In fact it looks like it was much less violent. It is entirely possible that Waltz's home was DAMAGED enough to make it unsafe to live in, without being WIPED from the earth. Don't make too many assumptions about things.
Last bit but if you ever hope to find the lost mine, you should search with a positive attitude, not the skeptical mind that is so useful in sorting out things. It makes a real difference, and might help you NOT walk right past it. If you are filled with doubts that the mine ever existed, you might as well stay home or hike for the exercise instead of wasting your time filming something you do not believe exist.
Old - great post < http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...s-superstition-wilderness-12.html#post4503172 > the "like" was not a strong enough compliment.
I won't bore anyone further, since clearly most everyone here has already made up their minds so debate is not helpful. Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Or not, as the case may be.
Oroblanco
coazon de oro
Bronze Member
Compadre, you have been in Mexico too long. Don't expect an upside down question mark at the beginning, just find the question mark at the end of a sentence, and you will understand what the question was.
Homar
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Carozone, I only have a gringo keyboard. course fresh corn Tortillas -----
Hal Croves
Silver Member
- Sep 25, 2010
- 2,659
- 2,695
RG1976 wrote
OK you asked, you are wrong. There is absolutely solid documentation that Dick Holmes owned the gold ore that matchbox was made from. According to his own words, he got it from Waltz. He spent the rest of his life searching for that mine, as did his son Brownie, and his partner Clay Wurst which brings us to today. It is as authentic as you are going to get, until you find the mine that gold came from.
I am not going to post what I had written because clearly, if I write too many words it is a waste of my time. However I will say this, you are attempting to judge the 1891 flood by a recent one. Floods are very different, no two are alike. One might come as a torrent and sweep everything in its path, another might come as slow rising waters that damages things by simply getting everything soaked. Here is a photo of the 1891 Phoenix flood:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6QWrwuZyUBs/U6meoV7A0sI/AAAAAAAAOhU/bhQ8h184SQE/s1600/Flood_of_1891.jpg
If you take a look at it that does not resemble the flood photos posted of the modern flood. In fact it looks like it was much less violent. It is entirely possible that Waltz's home was DAMAGED enough to make it unsafe to live in, without being WIPED from the earth. Don't make too many assumptions about things.
Last bit but if you ever hope to find the lost mine, you should search with a positive attitude, not the skeptical mind that is so useful in sorting out things. It makes a real difference, and might help you NOT walk right past it. If you are filled with doubts that the mine ever existed, you might as well stay home or hike for the exercise instead of wasting your time filming something you do not believe exist.
Old - great post < http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...s-superstition-wilderness-12.html#post4503172 > the "like" was not a strong enough compliment.
I won't bore anyone further, since clearly most everyone here has already made up their minds so debate is not helpful. Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Or not, as the case may be.
Oroblanco
Great post and your comments about having the right mindset are spot on. I am not sure that I agree with discouraging RG1976 from filming or trying to debunk long held beliefs. In fact, I would argue that his videos stop just short of his intended goal, debunking. That's not criticism, well, perhaps it is but it's meant to be positive. Until we see the interior, millions of Franks fans will continue to believe that there is a Jesuit treasure, marked with an odd looking cross in the Bat Cave. And there may be.
But you only know when you know.
...and you don't know until someone comes along and sets things straight.
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Oroblanco
Gold Member
- Jan 21, 2005
- 7,838
- 9,830
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- Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
Hal Croves wrote
　
Well I said I would not bother anyone further here but have to add some anyway. So I must ask your indulgence, thanks in advance.
　
I don't mean to discourage RG1976 from filming videos, they are great and especially for people who do not live in Apache Jct and can't trot up into the Superstitions on any afternoon. Debunking is also good, for there is or are a great deal of nonsense, error and falsehoods that have gotten mixed into the LDM legend. However at the root we have a successful German prospector, rich gold (according to the Holmes assay it had over 5000 ounces of gold per ton) that led Waltz's closest friends to spend their resources, even lifetimes searching for the mine. If someone wants to debunk that, it would take more than a video, you will need to find the place that gold we can see in the matchbox, cufflinks, tie pin etc came from as a perfect match, and that source NOT be in the Superstitions or near them. Otherwise we have solid documentation on Holmes and how the ore became jewelry, his own words that the gold came from Waltz, his own actions indicating that he certainly believed the mine was in the Superstitions, also Julia and Reiney (and later Reiney's father and brother as well) also searching for the mine, stating that Waltz had a mine, that Waltz had given Julia a sizable amount of money in the form of gold to help her out, and the accusation that Holmes had taken the remaining gold Waltz had without permission. I hold that this set of circumstances, statements and documentation would make a strong court case, to debunk it would require showing a different, proven source for the gold specimens (jewelry) than what Dick Holmes said and supported by Julia and Reiney.
　
There IS plenty to debunk too, like the various alternate names of Waltz (Walsh, Walzer etc) which we now know to have been Waltz for that is how HE spelled it. A good number of the clues are highly questionable, as for example with the Ludy/Peralta story, we have suspiciously matching description details - a huge funnel shaped pit, and no one has been able to find that? If that statement is true, and Waltz's gold mine had that huge landmark, then why is that landmark not mentioned in every version of his mine? There are two commonly known versions, the Holmes and Julia/Reiney version, but there is a third version which has no such funnel shaped pit OR tunnel below. A mine either has a pit and tunnel or it does not, it cannot both have those physical features, and not have them.
　
It might even be helpful to examine why Waltz led trailers into the Superstitions, perhaps his mine is not in the Wilderness Area portion at all? Maybe he was only leading those dry-gulchers on a wild goose chase to mislead them, for in the Superstitions it would be fairly easy to lose anyone trying to follow you.
　
I don't want to get too long winded here but will add one more thing. I see that accusation tossed around quite a lot, how some people are "keeping the myth alive" for their own profits, implying that the story of the LDM is wholly false and the people who speak up in favor of it, know it to be false. That accusation is false. Actions speak louder than words. I can speak for myself in that I have searched for that mine personally, which I would never do if I believed it did not exist. I for one do not make profits by the legend continuing, if anything it makes for more competition against my interests. If I had a cynical attitude, I might choose to mislead or discourage others from searching, rather than argue in favor of the mine being a reality. A well hidden reality but no dream.
　
On the other hand, there ARE also people on these forums whom are deliberately trying to discourage people from looking for the LDM, even though privately they believe it is true! They do not want anyone else to look for it, as they do not want any competition. In some cases they believe they are very close to finding it, and don't want others poking around there. So they post on treasure forums to discourage others from looking, and also post false and misleading information just to throw any competition off the track, or just for the laughs of sending someone on a wild goose chase. There are also a few people whom are posting discouragement because they don't want to see anyone else get lost or killed in the mountains, perhaps feeling some guilt for the loss of other treasure hunters in the past, that perhaps they had encouraged to go look, and ended up dead. Keep that in mind when reading the negative statements posted in here and other forums, some of it really has a hidden agenda.
　
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. I look forward to future videos from RG1976!
Oroblanco
　
Well I said I would not bother anyone further here but have to add some anyway. So I must ask your indulgence, thanks in advance.
　
I don't mean to discourage RG1976 from filming videos, they are great and especially for people who do not live in Apache Jct and can't trot up into the Superstitions on any afternoon. Debunking is also good, for there is or are a great deal of nonsense, error and falsehoods that have gotten mixed into the LDM legend. However at the root we have a successful German prospector, rich gold (according to the Holmes assay it had over 5000 ounces of gold per ton) that led Waltz's closest friends to spend their resources, even lifetimes searching for the mine. If someone wants to debunk that, it would take more than a video, you will need to find the place that gold we can see in the matchbox, cufflinks, tie pin etc came from as a perfect match, and that source NOT be in the Superstitions or near them. Otherwise we have solid documentation on Holmes and how the ore became jewelry, his own words that the gold came from Waltz, his own actions indicating that he certainly believed the mine was in the Superstitions, also Julia and Reiney (and later Reiney's father and brother as well) also searching for the mine, stating that Waltz had a mine, that Waltz had given Julia a sizable amount of money in the form of gold to help her out, and the accusation that Holmes had taken the remaining gold Waltz had without permission. I hold that this set of circumstances, statements and documentation would make a strong court case, to debunk it would require showing a different, proven source for the gold specimens (jewelry) than what Dick Holmes said and supported by Julia and Reiney.
　
There IS plenty to debunk too, like the various alternate names of Waltz (Walsh, Walzer etc) which we now know to have been Waltz for that is how HE spelled it. A good number of the clues are highly questionable, as for example with the Ludy/Peralta story, we have suspiciously matching description details - a huge funnel shaped pit, and no one has been able to find that? If that statement is true, and Waltz's gold mine had that huge landmark, then why is that landmark not mentioned in every version of his mine? There are two commonly known versions, the Holmes and Julia/Reiney version, but there is a third version which has no such funnel shaped pit OR tunnel below. A mine either has a pit and tunnel or it does not, it cannot both have those physical features, and not have them.
　
It might even be helpful to examine why Waltz led trailers into the Superstitions, perhaps his mine is not in the Wilderness Area portion at all? Maybe he was only leading those dry-gulchers on a wild goose chase to mislead them, for in the Superstitions it would be fairly easy to lose anyone trying to follow you.
　
I don't want to get too long winded here but will add one more thing. I see that accusation tossed around quite a lot, how some people are "keeping the myth alive" for their own profits, implying that the story of the LDM is wholly false and the people who speak up in favor of it, know it to be false. That accusation is false. Actions speak louder than words. I can speak for myself in that I have searched for that mine personally, which I would never do if I believed it did not exist. I for one do not make profits by the legend continuing, if anything it makes for more competition against my interests. If I had a cynical attitude, I might choose to mislead or discourage others from searching, rather than argue in favor of the mine being a reality. A well hidden reality but no dream.
　
On the other hand, there ARE also people on these forums whom are deliberately trying to discourage people from looking for the LDM, even though privately they believe it is true! They do not want anyone else to look for it, as they do not want any competition. In some cases they believe they are very close to finding it, and don't want others poking around there. So they post on treasure forums to discourage others from looking, and also post false and misleading information just to throw any competition off the track, or just for the laughs of sending someone on a wild goose chase. There are also a few people whom are posting discouragement because they don't want to see anyone else get lost or killed in the mountains, perhaps feeling some guilt for the loss of other treasure hunters in the past, that perhaps they had encouraged to go look, and ended up dead. Keep that in mind when reading the negative statements posted in here and other forums, some of it really has a hidden agenda.
　
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. I look forward to future videos from RG1976!
Oroblanco
Azquester
Bronze Member
- Dec 15, 2006
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I personally think that what Waltz didn't say and what he might have said could hold the clues. He spoke in broken German with some slang he may have meant something entirely different in his death bed confession while he was sick. He may have purposely given some reverse clues or mixed them up. He had pneumonia and was a delusional dying man with dementia from age.
I just took care of my dying Father in Law for the last 11 months of his life and he died of pneumonia. But while he was dying he went through a phase near the end called delirium.
This I witnessed first hand and this I can tell you. When a person is dying of Pneumonia it can happen rapidly. But during the stages of sleep and small periods of awake they go into a delirium state that causes delusional thoughts and sometimes outright hallucinations. I witnessed this first hand each and every time he had Pneumonia. This around ten times or so. He finally lost his
shallow ability and was prone too aspiration pneumonia.
We spent most of the time in the hospital it was almost a weekly ritual.
So if that's true that the Dutchman had pneumonia I have witnessed personally 10 close to death experiences from pneumonia all in an 11 month period.
I'm no expert but each time when he had it and he was talking about anything it was displaced from where he was at. He mixed things up and had directions backwards.
Most of the time he had no clue where he was at and only wanted to go back to his farm which he thought was here when it was in Ill.
But he always had his facts backwards or mixed up.
Whatever the Dutchman said on his death bed well...........
Scratch that, reverse it, turn it sideways and pass gas Jacob never had his story right from the get go.
I just took care of my dying Father in Law for the last 11 months of his life and he died of pneumonia. But while he was dying he went through a phase near the end called delirium.
This I witnessed first hand and this I can tell you. When a person is dying of Pneumonia it can happen rapidly. But during the stages of sleep and small periods of awake they go into a delirium state that causes delusional thoughts and sometimes outright hallucinations. I witnessed this first hand each and every time he had Pneumonia. This around ten times or so. He finally lost his
shallow ability and was prone too aspiration pneumonia.
We spent most of the time in the hospital it was almost a weekly ritual.
So if that's true that the Dutchman had pneumonia I have witnessed personally 10 close to death experiences from pneumonia all in an 11 month period.
I'm no expert but each time when he had it and he was talking about anything it was displaced from where he was at. He mixed things up and had directions backwards.
Most of the time he had no clue where he was at and only wanted to go back to his farm which he thought was here when it was in Ill.
But he always had his facts backwards or mixed up.
Whatever the Dutchman said on his death bed well...........
Scratch that, reverse it, turn it sideways and pass gas Jacob never had his story right from the get go.
Last edited:
Hal Croves
Silver Member
- Sep 25, 2010
- 2,659
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Oroblanco,
If Waltz did find an abandon mine in the Superstitions (the one common detail in many of the surviving stories) who do you believe made the initial discovery and when?
Thank you for the input!
ConceptualizedNetherlandr
Bronze Member
Well ... not to get to scientifically and technical about this but back in the day of structural and architectural engineering skool they always taught that adobe structures held up much better in flood waters if the bricks were made with one standard sized gold bar in each.
azblackbird
Sr. Member
The Mexicans did a lot of digging in the Supers and surrounding areas. Heck, they did a lot of digging all over AZ. The Mammoth Mine in Goldfield was originally a Mexican dig. Several other mines in the area were also.
Hal Croves
Silver Member
- Sep 25, 2010
- 2,659
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PHP:
Azblackbird,
Are you able to provide any proof of a Mexican presence in the Superstitions prior to the war? Just one name or historical mention of the fact would be enough but.... physical proof would be something to talk about.
Unfortunately, I seem to fall short every time I look.
Oroblanco
Gold Member
- Jan 21, 2005
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Well you sure know how to hit the key point don't you? The mine had to be discovered by someone. I realize there are numerous stories involving Peraltas, Gonzales, Apaches, Pimas and more, but since these are all generally linked to the two popular versions of the LDM, and have been tried by many thousands of people over a century, I am convinced that the other version is the correct one of how that mine was first discovered. Jacob Waltz himself found it, by using a portable drywasher to trace the gold to the source. I don't think it was an abandoned mine at all, just a small visible outcropping not very different from the Vulture.
As to when I sure do not know precisely but we can safely say it was not after 1889 and almost certainly not before 1868. If he had found it prior to that date, why would he have been off in the Bradshaws or even earlier in California. I will put my money on 1872 as the date when Waltz probably discovered his gold mine. That is when he hired a carpenter to build the portable drywasher, and perhaps it took him much longer to find the vein but I doubt it. I think he had seen signs or found a few colors and wanted a way to follow up, hence the need for the drywasher. I don't see the 1878 agreement with Starrar as proof that Waltz had no gold, for the gold was probably his "safety net" that he intended to keep until his death, while his farm could easily become impossible for him to maintain should his health turn bad. After all, Waltz never mentioned his gold to his closest friends Julia and Reiney, until they were in financial trouble. Had she not gotten into that trouble, Waltz might have died quietly, never trying to tell anyone where the mine is, and his secret stashes remained buried around his home, and we would have very little story to go on at all today.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Hal Croves
Silver Member
- Sep 25, 2010
- 2,659
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Interesting!!!
What I find simply impossible to understand is that there is no historical connection that links Dupoa and Waltz. It's just odd that these two didn't know each other in some way. Many similarities in these mens lives.
Not being a prospector myself, why would Waltz need a drywasher? If he was following color in a wash to it source, wouldn't that be done more efficiently with a pan?
As always thank you!
- May 9, 2012
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Dry wash for a dry wash? Guessing.
sgtfda
Bronze Member
A pan is used for testing and cleanup. A dry washer or sluice is used after you find a spot testing to get the placer gold you located. If you have water a sluice works best. I use both.
Last edited:
Hal Croves
Silver Member
- Sep 25, 2010
- 2,659
- 2,695
Makes sense. So, why would you need one if your goal is to track back to the source? Seems like it would only slow you down.
Thanks sgtfda!
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