Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[Oroblanco]

Famous quote which seems relevant: "drawing vast conclusions from half-vast data"

Half at it

"When speculation and fallacious logic are mistaken for infallible truths or facts we call that lunacy and get those peeps psychiatric help. '

Well that certainly proves it, treasure hunting is not going to prove very rewarding for you. Perhaps you might turn your vast or half-vast education to better purpose in a legal career? Good luck to you, hope you find some friends even when you are not looking. Back to ignore for you.

 

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[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Well that certainly proves it, treasure hunting is not going to prove very rewarding for you. Perhaps you might turn your vast or half-vast education to better purpose in a legal career? Good luck to you, hope you find some friends even when you are not looking. Back to ignore for you.

Marvelous.

Now you can stop fixating on me and recall your topic.

 

[TailGunner]

^^^^^^^^^^^ Quite eloquent. Too bad it will fall on deaf ears.

Yes, he was right. The response was deleted.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hope this doesn't come as any surprise to you, but in the 'real' world - treasure hunting and prospecting are not recognized professions in educational institutions.

I admit to my years with the SOJ. GAWD forbid.

I also admit to multiple college degrees and various sate professional registrations in various disciplines.

Happy now?

I also hereby admit I need none of that to be correct it fact, truth and logic.

Got science?

Why must you admit it? Simply acknowledging the fact would have been enough.


Anyway, if it's true, perhaps you will be generous and help us understand history from your unique perspective. In your educated opinion, did the expulsion have anything to do with Jesuit mining in the New World? I have read two very different explanations and would appreciate your thoughts.

GAWD bless.

 

[Culinary Caveman]

Oro, You know that I have the utmost respect for you and I know that you're much more knowledgeable about the Dutchman than I am. My post on page 1 is simply my thoughts on the man.
If the man is willing to go so far as to kill several people to protect the mine and risk his neck to get the ore out it would seem to me that he'd make the most of his trips to the mine. I would.
My belief is that he had a mine, maybe rich at first that eventually petered out. Was he a sociopath, he supposedly killed several people including his partner, did he just want to tell some tall tales in his latter years? I don't know, but nothing I've read about the man leads me to believe that he ever had a mine that could make several men millionaires.
I tend more to the belief that he was a sick, lonely old man who found that telling his story of immense wealth kept company coming by to visit him in his last days. JMO.

 

[Culinary Caveman]

As an after thought, I don't put much stock in death bed confessions either. Look at how many people have confessed to being Jesse James, Billy the Kid and even John Wilkes Booth. Again JMO.

 

[cactusjumper]

One more tidbit for Cactusjumper Joe:

View attachment 1158016
This is reporting ores shipped from Arizona to be processed in SACRAMENTO.
From The Arizona sentinel., August 02, 1879 page one, Yuma Arizona

ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote


Conceptualized: Thank you for your curriculum vitae but I noticed that you did not actually answer either question, which are relevant to the topic and forum. And yes I am always a happy guy, unlike some folks here. Since you seem to think that treasure hunting and prospecting are not "Real world" one might wonder what your purpose here is? To chat with people you think are living in fantasy? I fear you would be in for a shock if you were to contact the IRS about whether treasure hunting and prospecting are "recognized professions" and if you think they are not, why are you here? To have an argument? Do you think you are going to educate everyone or save us from foolish waste of our time? Just curious, and to be honest I am seriously considering putting you back on ignore so you may answer or not as you choose.

Roy,

We are getting a little into the weeds here. Ore to be processed in Sacramento is a little different than ore being shipped to the U.S. Mint in Sacramento.

I found that the mints only accepted bullion for coinage and not ore. It's been a long time since I was looking into this subject, so that's how I remember it. I would need to go back to Terry's book to see exactly how he worded the piece,
receipt or receipts.

It certainly does seem a fit subject for this topic. Are you also posting from memory? I have little doubt that your memory is better than mine. I still maintain that $250,000. worth of ore, in that time, would have been hard to keep secret. I believe it would have created quite a.....rush. No record of Waltz having that kind of cash.......ever.

I will get Terry's exact wording.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Extra coffee alert - long reply, I ask your indulgence.

Oro, You know that I have the utmost respect for you and I know that you're much more knowledgeable about the Dutchman than I am. My post on page 1 is simply my thoughts on the man.
If the man is willing to go so far as to kill several people to protect the mine and risk his neck to get the ore out it would seem to me that he'd make the most of his trips to the mine. I would.

My belief is that he had a mine, maybe rich at first that eventually petered out. Was he a sociopath, he supposedly killed several people including his partner, did he just want to tell some tall tales in his latter years? I don't know, but nothing I've read about the man leads me to believe that he ever had a mine that could make several men millionaires.

I tend more to the belief that he was a sick, lonely old man who found that telling his story of immense wealth kept company coming by to visit him in his last days. JMO.

Hola amigo Culinary Caveman;
Of course you are entitled to your own opinions and views. I don't mean to come across as if insisting that everyone has to think MY way. Your points are excellent.

I don't buy that story of Waltz the psychopathic murderer, willing to gun down seven, eight nine or eleven (I have seen higher numbers) to steal and keep the gold mine. I will buy it that it is possible he may have killed over that mine, but we just don't know the circumstances. There were people whom would kill you to steal a rich gold mine, just as there are today. He may have had little choice of whether to shoot or not. In one (double murder) it is even pointed out that he thought they were Indians, and the Apaches were on the warpath for decades while Waltz was active. Anyway all that murdering may well have just been battling to save his own life during a really dangerous time to be in the Arizona mountains alone or with one partner.

Most of the Waltz-the-vicious-killer story comes from the Holmes version. We can point out some flaws in that version like the part about why Waltz did not file a claim, as he supposedly did not have citizenship when we know he was a citizen. I don't know who introduced those errors, it may even have been Waltz himself, for according to that same source, Holmes himself had tried to sneak and trail Waltz to the mine but got caught and believed he was nearly shot by Waltz for he saw the old man sitting up ahead on the trail with his rifle aimed right at him. Later he encountered Waltz in town and was told not to trail him again or he would be killed. So Waltz may have not liked Holmes and even though on his deathbed, told him a tall tale - which might be the real reason why Waltz several times in that "confession" seemed to be asking the lord for forgiveness.

Further - even though that set of directions in the Holmes manuscript tells you to go to First Water as the way to get to the mine, the very first place Holmes himself went to, to look for the trail to the mine was not First Water but Hidden Water, and then on across the Salt river etc. So if that set of directions is correct, why did not the alleged author follow them himself?

One last bit on this and I will shut up but Jacob Waltz sold off his own gold cache, his only "reserve" of money he had available, just to help out his friends Julia and Reiney. Psychopathic killers are not known for being sympathetic and helpful to people. Several others had memories of Waltz being not vicious but kindly, even making sure he had candy to give to little kids which to a kid in those days was a big thing to get free candy for the pioneers did not have lots of anything.

As to his story being just a tall tale to keep his care givers interested in him, well we do know that Waltz had been a successful prospector prior to his ever coming to Phoenix. He had sold all three mines but this proves that he knew how to find gold, which means that in the 23 years he lived at Phoenix, he certainly was capable of finding another gold mine. Most prospectors and treasure hunters can not quit prospecting and treasure hunting - it gets in your blood, just as I believe it is in your blood. If you struck it rich tomorrow, my bet is that you might take a vacation and set up your finances so as to not have any worries, but before long you would be right back out there hunting for treasures again. To outsiders who do not understand what treasure hunting is all about, that looks as if we are "greedy" but it has nothing to do with greed and I defy anyone to spend the day operating the number 2 shovel digging for treasure and then tell me it is all about greed. I believe that Waltz was just like that - not greedy, he had enough gold for a sort of emergency fund, he had his own farm where he seemed to live comfortably enough, and although he was already in his 60s when he settled in Phoenix, he still made trips to the hills with pick and spade, mule and rifle because that is what a prospector does.

Against this I would expect a vicious killer willing to murder anyone that got close to his mine, would have dug out as much gold as he could possibly get before he would ever leave the mine, so that he could then not have to worry about anyone finding it because it would be cleaned out. (Or the high values cleaned out I should say). If Waltz had been NOT a prospector just an old man with a tall tale, just a farmer, (and no insult to Arizonans intended here) he could have claimed a farm in California where some of the best soils and plentiful water were readily available, rather than settling in Phoenix where irrigation was necessary and the risk of losing your hair to roving Apaches remained a possibility.

I think the biggest problem is that there is just SO much baloney and erroneous information that has gotten mixed with Waltz's basic story that it is virtually impossible to find the mine by following that mixed up information. There are over 100 clues all supposedly leading to his mine. Some of them are directly contradictory. Several other lost mine stories have been mixed in and I am convinced that some of these clues (most really) belong with those other mines, not with Waltz's. We can point to other lost mines with the same problem too like the lost Adams, and when you start mixing the clues together from different mines you are off on a wild goose chase.

Heck I don't even think the long, detailed deathbed "confession" is really accurate. He was dying of pneumonia and gasping for breath. It may be possible of course, but I strongly suspect that his listeners really only got some bits and pieces from Waltz himself, and had already known of the old Ludi-Peralta story and made the assumption that is one and the same with Waltz's mine so mixed the two together. Unfortunately there is reason to believe that Ludy-Peralta mine was a silver mine so can not be the same as Waltz's.

Just my OPINION but I believe that geology is the key to finding this lost mine. It had to be discovered in the first place by someone, so the same approach that found it in the first place should work to find it again - however VERY few Dutch hunters are working from this approach (several of the oldest Dutch hunters do and this should tell us something) instead they try to solve the clues and work from old and questionable maps and satellite imagery. While this approach might work, it has been tried by many thousands of people for years upon years without luck.

I don't expect that some babble on an internet forum is going to change everyone's mind, and most people want to see some GOLD before they are going to believe so you are far from being unreasonable amigo. Just thought I would explain this and maybe you can see why some of us are convinced the mine exists and is worth going for. The evidence is certainly not enough for some people but this is the nature of lost mine hunting - the LDM is super famous now but with many lost mine stories we have far less information than with the LDM. The fact that so many have searched without success does not prove the mine doesn't exist; it proves that it is well hidden and we have Waltz telling his friends that he hid the mine well. He told Reiney that the mine was very hard to find even when you know where it is! Reiney did not listen well enough.

We could also point to some of the other lost mine "legends" that have been found and proven to NOT be legends, like the Wandering Jew, the Salero, the Tayopa group, the once famous Breyfogle (Amargosa), the Josephine, the old Mojave mine, (you can stand on the road west of Quartzsite and see this one) Goler's lost diggings, the lost Pima <Vekol>, the Old Padres mine, even the famous Silver King was for some years a lost mine legend. While this does not prove the Lost Dutchman's mine a reality, it shows that at least in some cases these "legends" are based on facts, even famous legends.

My apologies to all for yet another overly-long post from the windbag in Dakota. Perhaps we can proceed to try to sort out some of the evidence that rightfully should be linked to the lost Dutchman's mine, from the information that should not be linked.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

We are getting a little into the weeds here. Ore to be processed in Sacramento is a little different than ore being shipped to the U.S. Mint in Sacramento.

I found that the mints only accepted bullion for coinage and not ore. It's been a long time since I was looking into this subject, so that's how I remember it. I would need to go back to Terry's book to see exactly how he worded the piece,
receipt or receipts.

It certainly does seem a fit subject for this topic. Are you also posting from memory? I have little doubt that your memory is better than mine. I still maintain that $250,000. worth of ore, in that time, would have been hard to keep secret. I believe it would have created quite a.....rush. No record of Waltz having that kind of cash.......ever.

I will get Terry's exact wording.

Take care,

Joe

Yes I have been typing from memory, don't have the book in hand. I don't insist that Terry's short sentences MUST be taken VERBATIM. Terry was a compiler for us, so his Atlases are really more like a collection of leads than an encyclopedia of treasure fact. I was trying to point out that people were indeed shipping ore to Sacramento from Arizona, which is what Terry is saying, his bit on the US Mint could be erroneous and the remainder of his statement correct. Two and a half tons of ore is only a fraction of what was sent according to that news item so would not be any extreme amount. I would point out also that many others were shipping ore out of the territory in the same time period as Waltz so his doing so is not that likely to arouse any gold rush especially if bagged up so no one could see what was in the sacks. It would have been foolhardy for someone to bring open top boxes full of gold in to ship by anyone.

IF Waltz did receive that much in cash, I agree there is little to indicate where it went. It is possible that he simply pissed it away, as all too many prospectors did in wild sprees for fun. It is also possible that he gave it to some relative we have not uncovered, or even buried it somewhere. Higham's letter has that same figure, and stated it was the reason why the Petrasch boys changed their minds after having reached the conclusion they were being sent on a wild goose chase. My bet is that these receipts (plural) may turn up some day.

Also we simply do not know the dates on the receipts, nor how many. Were there two or two hundred? An envelope of a few or a shoe box full? Who knows at this point in the game.

I do stand by the point that this story of the shipping receipts is POSSIBLE. Wells Fargo Express was taking credit for shipping in the time period, the RR had reached Yuma and even before this, freight was being shipped out by boats on the Colorado river in sizable amounts. If Waltz shipped out that "huge" amount over the span of 23 years in relatively small packages, it is absolutely possible that he spent the cash as fast as the money came in. We have no evidence that Waltz received $250,000 in ONE lump after all, it could have been fifty smaller amounts or more. We might be able to add up a pile of your old paychecks and find an astonishing fortune, but you did not receive that money in one lump - yet this large amount is what would get passed on in the stories. (Remember you are already linked by some folks to have found a cave full of gold bars, so later generations may well be adding up your income and concluding it must have been one lump - they might look at your lifestyle and property and say this proves you hit it, or on the other hand say this proves you did not!) You may be able to watch (from the heavens) as your own story takes on a life of its own just like Waltz.

I hope all is well with you - we are getting some needed rain so that gives me the excuse to be on here boring everyone! I should sign off though, so talk to you later.
Roy

 

[Culinary Caveman]

Oro, Good points and well written. I've no doubt that Waltz had a mine I just choose to remain dubious about the quality and quantity of the ore. I tend more to the belief that the vein ended at a fault, similar to the Centennial lode or petered out hence the poor directions to Julia and her attempt at Weaver's needle. Just a thought.

 

[Oroblanco]

Culinary Caveman - I hear ya! Good luck to you buddy I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

To all; we have covered some of the evidence so far. What about the story of the Two Soldiers, which is found in Sims Ely's book, as well as several other Dutchman books? Any opinions? I think this lost mine story got 'transplanted' from a different mountain range entirely, as there are several different 2 Soldiers or lost Soldier mines in Arizona. It is possible that a fourth pair of soldiers also found a rich gold mine in the Superstitions and then were killed but it is suspiciously similar to all three of the other lost Soldier mines. All three other lost Soldier mine stories predate Waltz too, so if they had found his mine (laying OPEN to the sky, when we have it from Waltz that he worked hard to conceal it, another point that bothers me) it happened while Waltz was still making trips to it. Perhaps he caught them at his mine and then murdered them, but I don't know of any evidence to support that idea.

I am doing a bit of cut-n-paste as I am too lazy to type it all up at the moment:

Lost Soldier Mine One of the best authenticated of these stories was of the "Lost Soldier Mine." The story has had little embellishment and, in part, may be true. Briefly narrated, it is this: In the summer of 1869, Abner McKeever and family were ambushed by Apache Indians on a ranch near the Big Bend of the Gila River. McKeever's daughter, Belle, was taken captive and a number of soldiers gave chase.

​ An old Arizona prospector and his mine in the Arizona desert.​

The Apache separated into several bands, whose trails were followed by small detachments of soldiers, the most westerly by Sergeant Crossthwaite and two privates, Joe Wormley and Eugene Flannigan. Two of their horses dropped of fatigue and thirst and their provisions ran out. Taking some of the horseflesh with them, they struck northerly, seeking water in what is supposed to have been the Granite Wash range of mountains in Northern Yuma County. Water was found just in time to save their lives, for Wormley already had become delirious. In the morning they found the spring fairly paved with gold nuggets. Above it were two quartz veins, one narrow and the other sixteen feet wide. The soldiers dug out coarse gold by the aid of their knives. About fifty pounds of this golden quartz they loaded on the remaining horse and then set out for the Gila River.
Less than a day's journey from the river, the three men separated, after the horse had dropped dead. Wormley reached the river, almost demented from his sufferings and was unable to guide a party back into the desert. Men struck out on his trail and soon found Flannigan, who would have lasted only a few hours longer. He was able to tell the story of the gold find, and the rescuing party went farther to find Crossthwaite's body. In a pocket was a map, very roughly made and probably very inaccurate, on which he had attempted to show the position of the golden spring. Better evidence was secured a few days later in the discovery of the dead horse, with the gold ore strapped to his back. The ore was all that Flannigan claimed and $1,800 was realized from its sale. Flannigan made several unsuccessful attempts to return to the find, but he dreaded the desert and never went very far from the river. He died in Phoenix in 1880. The district into which the party penetrated has been thoroughly prospected during the past twenty years and contains many mines of demonstrated richness. It is possible that the mountain was the Harqua Hala. The find might have been the later famous Bonanza, in a western extension of the mountain, from which several millions of dollars in free gold were extracted. Farther west, around Tyson's Wells, also has been found placer gold, though none of these discoveries seem to exactly fit the special conditions of the Lost Soldier mine.


Another "Lost Soldier Mine" was found by a scouting soldier from old Fort Grant in the hills north of the Gila River, not very far from the mouth of the San Pedro. His discovery was of quartz speckled with free gold. The country about has been thoroughly prospected since that time and mines of importance have been worked in that vicinity, but the nearest approach to the discovery of the old-time bonanza has been in the finding of placer gold in several of the gulches.

John D. Mitchell located the 2 Soldiers mine on the crest of the Mazatzal mountains, found by some Pima Indians. They reported skeletal remains that were clearly soldiers right at the mine.

So any opinions on the story (and associated clues) of the 2 Soldiers, does this belong linked with the Lost Dutchman's mine or not? I do not think so and will explain if anyone wishes. Thank you in advance.

Oroblanco

 

[hooch]

I believe nothing that came out of John D. Mitchell's mouth. Guy was a BS artist.

 

[Oroblanco]

OK - now what about the Joe Deering mine? Many Dutch hunters believe this is one and the same with that of Waltz.

The elements of the Joe Deering story are that he heard about the Soldiers mine story while in Prescott (or that area) and decided he could find it. He found an old mine with a funnel shaped pit and a tunnel beneath it, running toward the pit. Around the entrance of the mine he found pieces of ore, which he picked up and later showed to others in Pinal and/or Silver King (depends on source) who told him the ore looked very rich, and he said this was the poor stuff the former miners had tossed aside. Deering had a grubstake partner (named Thompson according to Helen Corbin's book, citing Daniel Brown a saloon keeper in the (now ghost) town of Silver King. According to Brown, Deering was simply waiting for his partner to arrive to then lay claim to the old abandoned mine and work it. According to another source, Deering had a partner in Colorado under a grubstake agreement, and the grubstake contract had one more month to run so he was going to work at a job (at Silver King mine) until the contract ran out, so he could then claim the mine and own it himself, cutting out his grubstake partner whom by Colorado grubstake law would have been entitled to half ownership.

Deering was then fatally injured in the Silver King mine when a huge block of rock shelved loose and crushed his legs, dying on the operating table while the doctor was trying to amputate his destroyed legs. While working at Silver King, Joe Deering had befriended another miner named John Chuning, and from him we have most of the (scant) clues to this mine.

Joe Deering was buried in the Silver King cemetery which is a bit of a trick to find today but you can find it, however someone has removed his headstone. Deering is also named in a court action in a Prescott newspaper predating his move to Silver King, in which he is filing suit against partners in Prescott. So we may question the Colorado detail, or who knows it may be accurate but it is odd that Deering had partners in Prescott but said his partner was in Colorado.

Deering described his mine as laying open to the sky, not concealed in any way. Jacob Waltz worked to hide his mine, laying in logs and then covering it with rocks and dirt. Deering found nice pieces of ore laying around the opening of the mine - Waltz certainly would not have left such blatant clues that his mine was close my, laying around in plain sight right next to the mine. His description of the funnel shaped pit and tunnel beneath match the one from the Ludi(or Ludy) story, and the two most popular versions of the Waltz mine, yet does not match the alternate description. Deering also said his mine was in a most "godawful" place that he would not even spend one night in, even though he had traveled through the wilderness from Colorado absolutely alone, without even a dog for company, hinting that something about the place would give you the creeps or spook you, especially at night.

Just on the basis of the finding of the mine OPEN to the sky, with pieces of ore laying around the entrance, I think we can rule Deering's mine out as being the same as Waltz's for Waltz repeatedly said he had hidden his mine well, so well that it was hard to find even when you know where it is. That is my opinion of course, everyone is entitled to their own and can be directly opposite that. Opinions? Thank you in advance.

Oroblanco

Coffee anyone?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola Oro, ya mean like saying that the Naranjal mine is in Durango ?

 

[Culinary Caveman]

Hola, Tio Tayopa. Oro is surely feeding us plenty of brain candy. I'm just worried about mixing it with your infamous coffee. Lol. Those with weak constitution should be warned.

 

[cactusjumper]

CC,

Beth and Roy always drank our coffee at the Rendezvous. I never had enough nerve to ask for some of theirs.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

Real,Amigo, settle down and have a double shot of dewars scotch with your and don't forget the slice of orange. np

 

[Oroblanco]

Warning! Another blast from the windbag so fill that coffee mug before proceeding!

Cactusjumper wrote <in another thread>

Roy,

I still believe that the best evidence for the existence of the LDM comes to us through the writings of Jim Bark, and by extension, Sims Ely. Everything else is just embellishments on the original story from Julia and Rhiney. The farther we get from their account, more is just added to the legend.

Take care,

Joe

While I agree the book by Sims Ely and the Bark Notes are arguably the best sources available, being closest to the source (Waltz) even so they are actually third hand sources to us. Your classification of "everything else" as being later embellishments to those original sources I must respectfully disagree on.

For one, we have the Holmes manuscript. While this too has questionable points, and even the authorship is open to question, Holmes is supposed to have spoken to Waltz directly so is a second hand source to us. Also we know that Holmes and his son (and partner Clay Wurst) all searched for the mine for many years. This at least supports that they had information they were trying to use to locate the mine.

Also we can question whether the information Sims Ely and Jim Bark obtained, was accurate. If it were correct, the best chance anyone had for following that information to find the mine and cache are Ely and Bark themselves, and they could not find either. They did find a gold mine by enlisting a partner in John Chuning, but this mine was not the LDM and soon played out, although they made a fair profit on it.

Further - we also have that third option and while you may dismiss all as the "hell is was there" syndrome, I have yet to see any grounds to impeach these witnesses whom were interviewed at the Pioneer home during the depression years. If their claims are true, and there is reason to believe it is, they knew Waltz also, but in earlier years than his old age in Phoenix, which makes them second hand to us. I would say third hand but as they are interviews, not changed into a book form by an author's hand just written down as they spoke these interviews are more like recollections or even testimony. Recollections can be faulty of course, but there are so few details to thus attack (examine for error or falsehood) in this version it would be difficult. Also, I have found some information given in those Pioneer Interviews (in unrelated matters) to be highly accurate. But then I don't sort things as all good or all bad, and try not to throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water.

In further support of this version of events, even in the Holmes and Julia/Reiney version, as well as the Tom Weedin story he related from Dr John Walker, Waltz (or Weisner's partner) travelled to Adams Mill very close to Florence to get supplies. This places him in the very town where the old timers later recalled having known the Dutchman.

Also, geology and mining history support this version, which we will get to in a moment.

To continue:

The "Jacobs and Ludy" story found in Barry Storm's first book, Trail of the Lost Dutchman, can be checked to a degree. They were supposedly ex-Confederate soldiers, hence the reason why Don Peralta was happy to hire them as guards. A look through the military records turns up two men both named Ludy or Ludi, JACOB Ludy and a relative named Charles (if memory serves, correction welcome) and they had served in Missouri in the Union army. So they had been Civil War soldiers, and we could say they might the real soldiers be at the root of the "2 Soldiers" mine associated with the Superstition mountains, rather than the assortment of other lost Soldier mines scattered all over Arizona in the Dripping Springs mountains, Mazatzal mountains, Granite Wash range, Gila Dome range and several others.

It gets more interesting too, for there is a considerable age difference between the two Ludy men; nineteen years difference according to their enlistment documents. This could be two brothers, (unlikely) or father and son, OR possibly uncle and nephew! Could this be at the root of the story of the NEPHEW involved with this legend? I suspect (strongly) that it is the case. In further support of this connection, many Dutch hunters have searched for a nephew to Jacob Waltz without finding one.

===========================================================================

Because Holmes and possibly others in trying to trail Waltz traveled on to Four Peaks, other lost mine stories have been getting mixed in as well, like the lost Pick mine, the Black Maverick, even the Bronco Canyon mine. Also the more famous lost Doc Thorne mine, which has been around since long before Waltz passed away and started his legend. With the Doc Thorne mine story, it has been variously reported as just a pile of gold or gold ore laying on the ground, a rich placer with lumps of gold laying visible in the dirt, a vein of white quartz loaded with gold about eighteen inches thick and probably other variations as well. Obviously these different descriptions can not all be right. Can they? Thorne was north of the Salt river, perhaps on a flank of Four Peaks or in the "rolls" that are so popular today with the people playing with quads, and of course another version has him SOUTH of the river Salt. Thorne himself could not find his "mine" which of course was not a mine as it had not been worked, but the generic term 'mine' gets tagged on to ledges, pockets etc that had never been touched with a pick and drill.

If Thorne had seen a placer, should we be associating it with Waltz? I would think not. It is quite possible that one or two of the clues from the Doc Thorne story have gotten mixed into the LDM, namely that he could see Four Peaks as a prominent landmark from the gold deposit, or perhaps the one about Four Peaks lining up to look like one.

If you are wondering where I am going with all this it is just to sort out and set aside the information that does not really belong in association with the mine of Jacob Waltz or looks like it might not. We don't have to rule everything OUT entirely, just set it on the 'maybe' shelf. Once you have filtered out all these things we have mentioned already, you are left with a really short story - that Waltz had a secret mine somewhere in the Superstitions. Now remember that unpopular, not widely known version of the LDM which is found in the Pioneer Interviews - in that version, Waltz finds the mine himself by following up gold showings. It was "no big secret" in Florence that he had a rich mine up on a side canyon of Pinto Creek.

Now look at Pinto Creek - you can still pan gold out of that creek today, although I would not recommend it as all or nearly all of it is either under active mining claims or private ground. Unless you get permission of course. But the fact is you can pan gold out of that creek. Not so much as in the old days due to a lot of mining activity has been done in that creek over the past century. Where you find placer gold, in many cases that gold is located below/downstream/downhill of the source that was creating it, a lode deposit or several of them. So where is all that gold that washed down Pinto creek, coming from? Could it not be coming right from Jacob Waltz's lost mine? Not all of it obviously for the placer is scattered over a broad area, indicating the source lodes are also probably scattered somewhat. If this is the case then locating ONE particularly rich lode out of perhaps dozens of small, poorer lodes <or hundreds! - some placers have formed from hundreds or even thousands of small lodes which are actually too poor to mine profitably> could get tricky.


Now one more aspect to bring up here, pointing to Pinto creek and that side of the Superstition mountains. Remember the USGS mineral studies reported finding anomalies of gold and silver along the eastern edge of the Wilderness Area; also Iron Mountain is in that area, which is clearly mineralized; we have the old Randolph or Rogers mining district, once famous for the rich silver mines (over 30 in a relatively small area) and just east of there we have yet more silver mines, the Silver King district and some of these mines also had nice pockets of gold in them. Further east, and getting out of the area but Pinto creek still flows through, we find copper mineralization and also a string of copper mines from Globe to Superior and even south of there. So the geology actually supports that a rich gold mine could exist there too. Some of the Peralta stone map theories have also ended up in the eastern part of the Superstitions, as Scott Wolter pointed out in his TV show. Wolter concluded that the LDM is one of the gold mines of Goldfield but I really disagree about that idea.

Real de Tayopa mi compadre - of course you are welcome to believe El Naranjal is in Durango! In fact you could even swing me to your idea too, if you can explain how a prospector found a Royal highway sign naming both El Naranjal and El Arco with arrows pointing, in a remote canyon in Sinaloa. I have not given up on ever hunting that famous mine amigo, in fact it is on the 'to-do' agenda or bucket list. I have even discussed a 'visit' to old Mexico with our mutual amigo Loke, and can't say more along those lines. I hope to visit Tayopa first however, and still am hoping for a piece of ore from any of the mines there.

Lastly, I do wonder how people can be hesitant about trying my camp coffee when they have never tasted it. Do we have to hike several days into the Superstitions before you will be desperate enough and brave enough to try it? We can arrange that if that is what it will take. In the last few years we have had a rather large number of visitors in our camps, none have refused the coffee nor complained about it. Sorry but there is usually no alcohol available to flavor it, but if at a 'car camp' I usually keep a bottle of Napoleon brandy so if you prefer it that way, we will have to meet at a car camp rather than a spike camp in the tall tules. But then only a cheechako would turn up his nose at camp coffee, no real sourdough would!
Oroblanco
　
　

SOCK coffee anyone?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, yer correct, it's in Chihuahua, Tayopa territory. sorry for the intrusion, but I couldn't resist the comparison.

 

[AbTexEx]

Great read thanks

AJones