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Thread: Exact location where Dick Holmes dug up the Dutchmans Nephew?

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  1. #31
    EDN
    EDN is offline
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    Apr 2016
    Gilbert, Arizona
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    I don't want to pick a side. I think there are true and false information in all the books I've read about the LDM. Reading the manuscript and other online posts and personal research, I do believe Brownie was involved in creating the manuscript. Regardless if any of the information is true or not, Dick and Brownie believed the Dutchman had a mine. Why else would they spend a lifetime searching? I enjoy reading all the clues and stories and trying to figure out where it and other treasures might be located. The drive for me is simply, I enjoy exploring. When I'm out, I try not to come back the same way so I can see more stuff. The stories get me outside. Don't get me wrong, I would love to find the mine. However, even if I did, I think it would be cool if others were able to enjoy and see this place. I don't care about becoming a milti-millionaire.

    I can't remember exactly where I read this but, thought it was interesting that when the Dutchman and Nephew left the mine and on the fist day from the mine stopped at hidden water. I have often wondered if this is second water.

  2. #32

    Mar 2019
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    Hey fast ship this is more of the Lost Dutchman fake news but the believers will not admit it. Just ask the RUTH FAMILY.

  3. #33

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,748
    5291 times
    Quote Originally Posted by EDN View Post
    I don't want to pick a side. I think there are true and false information in all the books I've read about the LDM. Reading the manuscript and other online posts and personal research, I do believe Brownie was involved in creating the manuscript. Regardless if any of the information is true or not, Dick and Brownie believed the Dutchman had a mine. Why else would they spend a lifetime searching? I enjoy reading all the clues and stories and trying to figure out where it and other treasures might be located. The drive for me is simply, I enjoy exploring. When I'm out, I try not to come back the same way so I can see more stuff. The stories get me outside. Don't get me wrong, I would love to find the mine. However, even if I did, I think it would be cool if others were able to enjoy and see this place. I don't care about becoming a milti-millionaire.

    I can't remember exactly where I read this but, thought it was interesting that when the Dutchman and Nephew left the mine and on the fist day from the mine stopped at hidden water. I have often wondered if this is second water.
    Over the years, and up to his death, Brownie denied writing the manuscript. Dr. Glover has said Brownie's family told him they remembered Brownie sitting at the kitchen table and working on the book. I believe both stories.

    He may have thought there was some worth in the book, despite many errors and made up "facts". I believe he decided to give the manuscript some authenticity and added a little "ghost writing". In that effort, at the kitchen table, he added some true history from himself and his family. The one man who may be able to shed some light on this theory is Dr. Glover. There may be some others, but I know he spent some time with the family.

    It would be interesting to see the final draft that came from Brownie. Anyone know what became of that original?......(Greg)? Was it all written in one hand, or perhaps two?

    Good luck,

    Joe
    somehiker, davin and PotBelly Jim like this.
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  4. #34
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Over the years, and up to his death, Brownie denied writing the manuscript. Dr. Glover has said Brownie's family told him they remembered Brownie sitting at the kitchen table and working on the book. I believe both stories.

    He may have thought there was some worth in the book, despite many errors and made up "facts". I believe he decided to give the manuscript some authenticity and added a little "ghost writing". In that effort, at the kitchen table, he added some true history from himself and his family. The one man who may be able to shed some light on this theory is Dr. Glover. There may be some others, but I know he spent some time with the family.

    It would be interesting to see the final draft that came from Brownie. Anyone know what became of that original?......(Greg)? Was it all written in one hand, or perhaps two?

    Good luck,

    Joe
    there is another man that would for sure
    cactusjumper and PotBelly Jim like this.

  5. #35

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,748
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    there is another man that would for sure
    Dave,

    Yes, I would imagine Clay would know.

    Take care,

    Joe
    azdave35 and PotBelly Jim like this.
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  6. #36

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,748
    5291 times
    To get back to the original topic here, I don't believe Waltz killed his nephew......period. The story does not really conform to what the people who knew him best, related about the man.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  7. #37
    Charter Member
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    Dec 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    To get back to the original topic here, I don't believe Waltz killed his nephew......period. The story does not really conform to what the people who knew him best, related about the man.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    Joe, I would agree that it really doesn't fit with ONE or MORE versions of Waltz. But, Dr. Glover has posted that Waltz actually did have a nephew that came to America and seemingly disappeared. This in my opinion is unusual, but not a smoking gun...pun intended...the name of the nephew is public record so I would imagine at some point, some intrepid researcher will track this fellow down if there's a record existing somewhere as to what happened to him.

    What I'm totally confident in: His nephew's name was not Peter Backens, unless it was an alias.

    Speculation: if Waltz did indeed kill someone and caved in a dirt bank over him at Agua Escondido, whether Holmes actually found that body or not, it very well could have been Peter Backens in that grave. Or, his nephew...or, the entire story is complete BS. I'm not sure we will ever know which is which.
    coazon de oro likes this.

  8. #38
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    PotbellyJim,

    How do you know Peter Backens was definitely not Waltz nephew, the man he killed at agua escondido? I have no opinion one way or the other but have found something that links Waltz and Backen beyond their mining claim partnership.

  9. #39
    Charter Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    PotbellyJim,

    How do you know Peter Backens was definitely not Waltz nephew, the man he killed at agua escondido? I have no opinion one way or the other but have found something that links Waltz and Backen beyond their mining claim partnership.
    Hi Matthew,

    That is a good question, but I’m afraid I have no answer beyond what you are already aware. I will answer it anyway to the best of my ability for other folks reading this.

    First, I want to distinguish clearly that I said I was “totally confident”. What I am totally confident about may appear to be hogwash to others, and that’s OK. I did not say it was definite, or to be more clear, historical fact.

    My confidence comes from the research of Dr. Oertel, in the 2007 Superstition Mountain Journal. I’m totally confident that he located the correct Waltz family. To say why would take too long, but I’m sure I’m not the only one who has checked for themselves and come to a similar conclusion.

    Waltz’s sister’s married surname was PREISS. None of his brothers married a BACKENS.

    The versions of the Holmes manuscript that I’ve seen do not name Waltz’s nephew as Peter Backens, or anything at all with one exception.
    Robert Lee’s, Dr. Glover’s, and Helen Corbin’s “Curse” printings of the story also have no name for the nephew.

    The only reference I’ve seen that names the nephew as Peter Backens, is Helen Corbin’s “Bible”. She references him as the nephew both in the text, and for some reason inserted it in what seemed to be an otherwise a verbatim copy of the Holmes manuscript. She provides no reference for this. It’s clear by mentioning Backens both in the text, and inserting Peter Backens in this version of the Holmes Manuscript, that she believed she knew who Waltz’s nephew was. I have no idea why. But in the absence of a verifiable source, and one I might add I’ve been unable to find despite considerable searching, I’m fairly confident that she was either mistaken, or using the name of one of Waltz’s German fellow miners as a “placeholder” and never corrected it before the book went to print.

    My last point is that Dr. Glover has posted earlier in this thread that he had found what appears to be a nephew of Waltz’s that emigrated to America and seemingly disappeared. I’m confident that if this nephew’s name was Backens, he would have mentioned it as it would have been a very significant indicator that Helen’s “Bible” references had been corroborated to a large degree.

    So it is all the above taken in totality, and a familiarity with Waltz’s actual association with a Peter Backens, that gives me total confidence that if Waltz did kill his nephew, that nephew’s name was not Peter Backens unless it was an alias he was using for some reason.

    I'm sure I've not added to your understanding of the situation, but have answered your question. Would you be willing to share with us what information you've found linking Peter Backens to Waltz, beyond their mining claim partnership? Thanks, Jim

  10. #40
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    744
    3171 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Hi Matthew,

    That is a good question, but I’m afraid I have no answer beyond what you are already aware. I will answer it anyway to the best of my ability for other folks reading this.

    First, I want to distinguish clearly that I said I was “totally confident”. What I am totally confident about may appear to be hogwash to others, and that’s OK. I did not say it was definite, or to be more clear, historical fact.

    My confidence comes from the research of Dr. Oertel, in the 2007 Superstition Mountain Journal. I’m totally confident that he located the correct Waltz family. To say why would take too long, but I’m sure I’m not the only one who has checked for themselves and come to a similar conclusion.

    Waltz’s sister’s married surname was PREISS. None of his brothers married a BACKENS.

    The versions of the Holmes manuscript that I’ve seen do not name Waltz’s nephew as Peter Backens, or anything at all with one exception.
    Robert Lee’s, Dr. Glover’s, and Helen Corbin’s “Curse” printings of the story also have no name for the nephew.

    The only reference I’ve seen that names the nephew as Peter Backens, is Helen Corbin’s “Bible”. She references him as the nephew both in the text, and for some reason inserted it in what seemed to be an otherwise a verbatim copy of the Holmes manuscript. She provides no reference for this. It’s clear by mentioning Backens both in the text, and inserting Peter Backens in this version of the Holmes Manuscript, that she believed she knew who Waltz’s nephew was. I have no idea why. But in the absence of a verifiable source, and one I might add I’ve been unable to find despite considerable searching, I’m fairly confident that she was either mistaken, or using the name of one of Waltz’s German fellow miners as a “placeholder” and never corrected it before the book went to print.

    My last point is that Dr. Glover has posted earlier in this thread that he had found what appears to be a nephew of Waltz’s that emigrated to America and seemingly disappeared. I’m confident that if this nephew’s name was Backens, he would have mentioned it as it would have been a very significant indicator that Helen’s “Bible” references had been corroborated to a large degree.

    So it is all the above taken in totality, and a familiarity with Waltz’s actual association with a Peter Backens, that gives me total confidence that if Waltz did kill his nephew, that nephew’s name was not Peter Backens unless it was an alias he was using for some reason.

    I'm sure I've not added to your understanding of the situation, but have answered your question. Would you be willing to share with us what information you've found linking Peter Backens to Waltz, beyond their mining claim partnership? Thanks, Jim
    Potbelly Jim,

    Thank you for that explanation. I have no opinion if Backen was Waltz nephew or not, only a suspicion he may have been. The Ortel (Waltz) is definitely not the dutchman. Born in a different Year with the name Jakob Walz. Came to America, married and died almost 20 years before the dutchman death. What Ortel did was find a Walz close to our dutchman, followed him to America but then lost track of him completely. At that point he simply tacked onto the man what we already knew about the real dutchman.

    As for Backen he is the man Glover found that mysteriously disappeared at the time Waltz supposedly killed his nephew.

    Someone died at agua escondido and their skull was taken from there. That is not only in the Holmes family stories but also in the Jones and Coolidge family stories. Was that dead man Backen? I don't know for sure but he is a good candidate. Backen was the correct age to be Waltz nephew and disappeared in the time period Waltz killed his nephew. He was involved in mine claims with Waltz in Arizona.

  11. #41
    Charter Member
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    Matthew,

    Have you ever found anything on the prospector Switzer that was said in the Holmes manuscript to have also found the body? Switzer was said to have found the body without a skull, exactly as it would have been if Dick Holmes had taken the skull to Doc Jones. I had never heard the name Switzer myself, so I have always wondered if anyone had looked into him and found anything. Take care, Jim

  12. #42
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Matthew,

    Have you ever found anything on the prospector Switzer that was said in the Holmes manuscript to have also found the body? Switzer was said to have found the body without a skull, exactly as it would have been if Dick Holmes had taken the skull to Doc Jones. I had never heard the name Switzer myself, so I have always wondered if anyone had looked into him and found anything. Take care, Jim
    Potbelly Jim,

    I have heard the story of someone finding a skeleton minus the skull at agua escondido but do not recall the name Switzer. It may be true or maybe not, for me it doesn't prove or disprove anything. The Holmes story corroborated by Jones, Monroy, Coolidge is about as far as anyone can realistically go with it. At that point you either believe the story or not.

    I have been to agua escondido and the bluff of soft earth is there as described. I found no bones but the area has been extensively dug up over the past 75 years.

  13. #43
    Charter Member
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    Thanks Matthew. Personally I dont know what to think about the body. On one hand there's corroboration, but on the other hand I think Dick Holmes was a pretty upright citizen and don't think it fits that he wouldn't have reported the body to law enforcement. For example, he went to the law when he saw his horse that had been stolen. He seems like a level headed guy. But, I doubt Kennison would have known enough on background to make the story up so accurately. It's a mystery to me.

  14. #44
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    744
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Thanks Matthew. Personally I dont know what to think about the body. On one hand there's corroboration, but on the other hand I think Dick Holmes was a pretty upright citizen and don't think it fits that he wouldn't have reported the body to law enforcement. For example, he went to the law when he saw his horse that had been stolen. He seems like a level headed guy. But, I doubt Kennison would have known enough on background to make the story up so accurately. It's a mystery to me.
    Potbelly Jim,

    You have to take into account that 1890s in Arizona there were still skeletal remains littering the landscape in remote areas. Indians, settlers, soldiers, prospectors died and lay for years where they fell. Law enforcement just would not investigate a skull or bones unless they could positively link them to a missing person or an open investigation. If the law investigated every found bone in 1892 they would have had roughly a million open investigations. I have found verified human vertebra and finger bones in the Superstitions. Obviously very old.

  15. #45
    us
    Apr 2013
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    Charles Kenison was a very educated man, an engineer skilled at writing technical manuals. He was a contemporary of Dick Holmes and close neighbor of both Dick and Brownie Holmes. Kenison is buried in the same mausoleum at Greenwood in Phoenix as Dick Holmes, about 3 crypts away to be exact.

    Brownie gave the information for the manuscript, Kenison fleshed it out and made it adventuresome and readable. Brownie was not a writer, he was a storyteller, there's a big difference.

    The story told about Brownies family seeing him typing the manuscript at the kitchen table is false.

    The Holmes manuscript was written and dated 1944. Brownie did not meet and marry his wife, and her children until 1947. Prior to that Brownies only living family was his brother Jesse Roberts.

 

 
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