The Brownie Holmes Manuscript

[Old]

Everyone is entitled to believe what they wish. No matter how improbable.

Is it possible that ole Jake went into a long litany detailing his life, his sins, as well as the location of his mine and passed on the last of his worldly possessions to Holmes? Sure, its possible. But; its not probable.

Look it up for yourself. Acute pneumonia, its symptoms in the elderly. The Mayo Clinic is a good source but there are others.

How much talking, even whispering do you think would be possible. And; if at all possible, how credible would it be?

The lungs fill with fluid making it more difficult, eventually impossible, to exhale. If you can’t exhale how much talking can you do? If you are able to speak, even a little, how much credibility can be given to any statements? The lack of oxygen and the increase in carbon dioxide cause loss, severe loss, of mental ability. There is associated infection which spreads to other organs. It ain’t pretty folks.

Then there is the transfer of ownership issue to consider. There is a good reason Wills include a reference to one “being of sound mind, and disposing memory”. If you are oxygen deprived coupled with carbon dioxide build up are you legally of sound mind? Hardly.

This is the background you have to consider when FACTUALLY evaluating Holmes’ recount of the how he came to be the holder of Jake’s final revelations and fortune. You decide.

To me, its too improbable to be given ANY credibility. Your mileage may vary.

Lynda

 

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[markmar]

Lynda

The fact that the directions which have given Waltz to Holmes lead to the same region with Holmes map , Waltz map and other maps , shows how Waltz had the time and was sound mind when told to Holmes the directions that morning

You decide .

 

[Matthew Roberts]

This is a good thread because it goes to the heart of the Lost Dutchman Mine story and everyone can offer their opinions and ideas freely, even Greg Davis has gotten involved with some great history of his own. My posts are merely my opinion and I am not trying to convince anyone of my ideas or disparage the opinions I do not agree with. After all, none of us were present and everyone offers something to think about.

cactusjumper posted something I would like to answer to illustrate that maybe all the story isn't out there for the general public to help them decide. Here is what cactusjumper posted : Those doubts are strengthened by the fact that the story is said to have come from Dick Holmes. Where is the Roberts written account of the events? Even Robert Joseph Allen fails to mention his name in his notorious work of fiction on the LDM. I believe Allen is the first person to mention Holmes being present at Waltz's death.

cactusjumper can verify what I am going to post with both Greg Davis and Paul Shimek.


In April of 1932 Jim Bark wrote a letter to Northcutt Ely (son of Sims Ely). In that letter Bark addressed the topic of Waltz, Dick Holmes, Brownie Holmes, Erwin Ruth and what happened the night Waltz died. This letter is part of a collection of Sims Ely's correspondence that Dr. Thomas Glover recently donated to the Arizona State Archives. Greg Davis copied those hand written letters and Paul Shimek painstakingly transcribed and typed them for ease of reading.

Now keep in mind the date of the letter April 6, 1932 is 30 years before the Holmes - Roberts - Waltz deathbed account became known to the public and 40 years before Robert Joseph Allen wrote his book. . In the letter Jim Bark is talking about Brownie Holmes and his father (Dick Holmes). Jim Bark is talking and the Bark letter reads .........

" .....he (Brownie) is smart and quick of wit but they all say he is very crooked. I am certain that his father (Dick Holmes) did help to pound up some of the ore from the Lost Dutchman that was taken from under the bed of old Jake (Jacob Waltz) while Rhiney and Julia were attending the funeral of old Jake with Gideon Roberts, an old prospector friend and acquaintance of the family. I saw the father of George Holmes (Dick Holmes) helping Gideon Roberts pounding it in a mortar with Dick by the school. I don't think that Erwin (Ruth) will get the best of George Holmes (Brownie) although Holmes has some money left him by his father who died a short time ago."

So here you have Jim Bark, an eye witness to the Holmes account, stating he personally witnessed Holmes and Roberts breaking up the Dutchman's ore,30-40 years before the Holmes account supposedly became “publically” known.

Those who have called Dick and Brownie Holmes liars for telling their account must now add Jim Bark to their liars list.
Jim Bark is not alone. There are several other documented pieces of evidence that predate the Holmes manuscript. A deposition given to a Phoenix attorney rests in this attorneys personal files which were donated to the Arizona Historical Society Archives. That deposition is witness to the days immediately following the death of Jacob Waltz in Phoenix and includes Dick Holmes Gideon Roberts and Mrs. Julia Thomas..

In my opinion, the Holmes account did happen, there is no question. The only question I have is what are the exact details of how it happened and exactly what was said.

I don't know if this will change anyone's mind, maybe not, and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but at least it might allow some to understand that there is more to the story than is commonly thought.

Again, everyone is free to believe whatever you want to believe, but before you make up your mind you should consider all the evidence.

Matthew

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

True Marius, true, but on a map with rivers that reach coastal areas . ( I agree with you, but was referring to common usage )

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good afternoon gentlemen: Just a comment for "Food for Thought". 1) After Waltz passed away, Holmes and Robert got together and annualized what they had heard from Waltz. Some of the clues and things Waltz told them didn't APPEAR to make sense, so they discarded those thinking they were not important. Just maybe they discarded something that today may be of importance. To my knowledge those items they did away with were never written down on paper on passed on verbally. This was told to me by Brownie during a visit I had with him. 2) Could the directions given to Julia and Rhiney by Waltz have been to the cache sites since the two were not miners or had knowledge of the Superstitions Mountains? Could the directions given to Holmes and Roberts by Waltz have been to the mine since they had mining experience and were knowledge of the Superstition Mountains? That might explain the difference between the Holmes and Thomas directions. Also, as Tom Glover pointed out in his talk at the Rendezvous, Waltz could have been relating over the months prior to his death, about various mines and claims he had worked over the years and that Rhiney and Julia just quit paying attention to him. Thus resulting in there confusion as where to go to look for the mine. 3) I cannot account for the confusion that Holmes and Roberts had about not knowing what part of the country to start their search for the mine unless Waltz left out that crucial part of the story. Maybe Matthew or Clay can enlighten us on that aspect of the story? 4) If you read Helen Corbin's book and the chapter where both sets of clues are given, you will fine they are somewhat similar to each other. Again, just "Food for Thought". Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy All,

Not trying to offend anyone but, in my opinion Mr. Davis, and Mr. Roberts make the most sense here. One can question Waltz's condition, and his motives, but the fact is that he knew he was dying, and knew that Mrs. Thomas, and Petrash were not familiar with the mine's area.

Why would he give the directions to Holmes? He knew Holmes stood a better chance of finding the mine, and would be able to work it. Holmes was probably the son Waltz would have wanted to have. Holmes had spunk and followed Waltz once into the mountains. Waltz knew he was being followed, so he took a different trail, and waited for Holmes. This is why he just gave him a warning, he had no reason to kill him. I am sure Waltz wanted for Mrs. Thomas, Petrash, and his Sister to be included in the fruits of the mine.

Why would Waltz confess to killing his Nephew if weren't true? According to Waltz his Nephew was going against his will, and determined to make public what was not his. This was something that Holmes could verify, and is why he went to Hidden Water first where he found the body with the chain just as Waltz had stated.

If the Holmes manuscript was just Holmes brainstorm, he would of told his son Brownie instead of having him waste his years trying to follow it's directions.

Homar

 

[markmar]

I believe the clues that had Holmes and Julia from Waltz were like two pieces of a map , with Julia's piece to been bigger including the mine . Waltz didn't want to leave Julia out of the case . Holmes couldn't ever find the mine ( as has happen ) without the Julia's secret clues . Holmes played alone and he lost .

 

[Oroblanco]

This is a good thread because it goes to the heart of the Lost Dutchman Mine story and everyone can offer their opinions and ideas freely, even Greg Davis has gotten involved with some great history of his own. My posts are merely my opinion and I am not trying to convince anyone of my ideas or disparage the opinions I do not agree with. After all, none of us were present and everyone offers something to think about.

Agreed, great thread and some great posts already.

Matthew Roberts also wrote

<snip>In April of 1932 Jim Bark wrote a letter to Northcutt Ely (son of Sims Ely). In that letter Bark addressed the topic of Waltz, Dick Holmes, Brownie Holmes, Erwin Ruth and what happened the night Waltz died. This letter is part of a collection of Sims Ely's correspondence that Dr. Thomas Glover recently donated to the Arizona State Archives. Greg Davis copied those hand written letters and Paul Shimek painstakingly transcribed and typed them for ease of reading.

Now keep in mind the date of the letter April 6, 1932 is 30 years before the Holmes - Roberts - Waltz deathbed account became known to the public and 40 years before Robert Joseph Allen wrote his book. . In the letter Jim Bark is talking about Brownie Holmes and his father (Dick Holmes). Jim Bark is talking and the Bark letter reads .........

" .....he (Brownie) is smart and quick of wit but they all say he is very crooked. I am certain that his father (Dick Holmes) did help to pound up some of the ore from the Lost Dutchman that was taken from under the bed of old Jake (Jacob Waltz) while Rhiney and Julia were attending the funeral of old Jake with Gideon Roberts, an old prospector friend and acquaintance of the family. I saw the father of George Holmes (Dick Holmes) helping Gideon Roberts pounding it in a mortar with Dick by the school. I don't think that Erwin (Ruth) will get the best of George Holmes (Brownie) although Holmes has some money left him by his father who died a short time ago."

So here you have Jim Bark, an eye witness to the Holmes account, stating he personally witnessed Holmes and Roberts breaking up the Dutchman's ore,30-40 years before the Holmes account supposedly became “publically” known.

Those who have called Dick and Brownie Holmes liars for telling their account must now add Jim Bark to their liars list.

Perhaps you are reading more into that than what it actually says, for really all that Jim Bark is "verifying" is that Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts had possession of gold ore that Bark believed to have come from Waltz. Nothing about the story, confession, directions etc. Just the ORE itself, in possession of Holmes and Roberts.

Matthew Roberts also wrote

Jim Bark is not alone. There are several other documented pieces of evidence that predate the Holmes manuscript. A deposition given to a Phoenix attorney rests in this attorneys personal files which were donated to the Arizona Historical Society Archives. That deposition is witness to the days immediately following the death of Jacob Waltz in Phoenix and includes Dick Holmes Gideon Roberts and Mrs. Julia Thomas..

Without seeing this deposition, or any way to verify that it is indeed genuine and not a modern fraud introduced into the LDM legend, how can we put faith in this supposed deposition?

Matthew Roberts also wrote

In my opinion, the Holmes account did happen, there is no question. The only question I have is what are the exact details of how it happened and exactly what was said.

I don't know if this will change anyone's mind, maybe not, and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but at least it might allow some to understand that there is more to the story than is commonly thought.

Again, everyone is free to believe whatever you want to believe, but before you make up your mind you should consider all the evidence.

Matthew

Agreed that everyone is entitled to accept or dismiss what ever version of events they prefer. Also agree with Greg Davis that it is possible that Waltz had a last rally, and could have told the whole story to Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts just as the Holmes manuscript claims. However it is not logical IMHO that Waltz should have decided to put his trust in the same man he had caught trailing him to the mine, and both Julia and Reiney were of the opinion that Holmes had stolen the gold. Also, based on Holmes own actions, his search for the mine does not follow the written directions in the Holmes manuscript. On the other hand we have Julia and Reiney, whom had helped take care of the old man in his last days. Does that seem logical to you, that Waltz would suddenly decide to in effect take Holmes and Roberts in as partners, when it was Julia and Reiney that had shown him some kindness in his last days?

I would suggest to anyone 'on the fence' about the LDM legend to read or re-read Barry Storm's first book, http://www.amazon.com/Trail-Lost-Du...-2&keywords=on+the+trail+of+the+lost+dutchman Trail of the Lost Dutchman, and take note of the tale of Ludy and Peralta, which he has as "Jacobs and Ludy" but in reality we do have a Jacob Ludy and another Ludy not Ludy and Jacobs. The tale is a close match for the popular version of the LDM. If you research this you will find that the lost Peralta mine started out as a silver mine, not a gold mine. I am convinced that Holmes manuscript is really just a re-hash of that old Ludy/Peralta tale, inserting Waltz into the story just as Storm did, thinking or believing it must be the same mine when in reality they can not be the same mines. Even the descriptions of Waltz's mine itself can not be reconciled - how could it have a huge funnel shaped pit requiring a ladder and or steps and a tunnel beneath, AND also be not more than a dozen feet deep, with an opening no larger than a barrel? Obviously both descriptions can not be of the same mine.

People have been mixing together the clues and information from different lost mines with the LDM story for over a century. Today even some of the clues are utterly mixed in - like the "trick in the trail" which really originates with Joe Deering, not Waltz. I strongly suspect that the references to Four Peaks and possibly even the "pointed peak" may be from the Doc Thorne story. Most of the earliest Dutch hunters (other than Holmes) hunted the area around Four Peaks, probably because of the older story of Dr Thorne's gold.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[roadrunner]

What has or is known as the established government trail to san carlos?
Route 88,the apache trail, or a trail from the early days that was then became the silver king road, and the Stonemans grade to garden Valley (top of the world now)..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Well in my opinion it goes like this------------------------------- !!!

 

[Old]

Good morning Matthew, and all

Great post and great discussion.

There has long been an alluded to court action brought by Julia against Holmes. It gets very little air play. If true and the deposition you mention exists, that's huge.

There should be a record of that action somewhere. Here it would be called a Chancery suit. A personal action, less than civil crime, but requesting the court to rule on a disputed ownership issue. I don't know what it might be called in Arizona, your courts are different.

All the information we seek as to who, what, where and when would be included in that file. There should be an original complaint, an answer, cross answer, reports of experts hired by the court, and an order. We know the ore continued to reside with Holmes, so we have a good idea how the case came out. But the lead up information would be invaluable.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Oroblanco: I agree with you that several lost mine stories have been woven into the Lost Dutchman Mine. The Thorne Story, Jacob and Ludy, Soldiers, Deering, all woven into one story. I personally believe that these stories have a good probability of being different mine locations. Then and again, one or the other may be closely related to the LDM. We can lay the blame with Barry Storm for the mixing of these stories. To both you and Old, There are places in the mountains where many of the clues given by the Holmes account and the Thomas Clues and Bark's accounts fit. It has taken me 40 years of hiking and exploring on THE GROUND to locate some of these areas. Just to put the record straight, I am NOT a "Dutch Hunter" as it may seem to some. I just read about some of these places and try to locate and document them for future researchers and explores. I would like to recommend the following reading material for "food for though". 1) Superstition Mountain Journal volume 27, 2009."The Salazar Re-Survey Revisited. A Re-calculation of the Salazar Date, by Steven Creager, P.19. 2) Superstition Mountain Journal volume 19, 2001. "BUSCA! Tales of American Indians and a Lost Mine in the Superstition Mountains" by Peter J. Esposito. p.19. Look at the map on Page 25. Locate the numbers relating to the accounts in this story on the map. Then draw lines and arrows in the direction the individual stories direct the reader to do. For the MOST PART, they all point to the same area as do the Holmes and Thomas accounts. Just my opinion from years of "walking the ground" Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[markmar]

Oro and Gregory

I want to tell my opinion for what mines supposed were mixed and what not . From where I concluded that opinion ? is like what Roy have once posted for me in another thread : " I am getting carried away here and an ancient proverb comes to mind - "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest." (gospel of Thomas, 5) "
1) The same mine are : the Sombrero/Peralta mine , Joe Deering mine , Two soldiers mine , Reed mine and the Waltz first quartz shaft mine .
2) The same mine are : Lost dutchman mine and Doc Thorne outcropping ( before Waltz dug it ).
3) No match for Ludy silver mine .

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good morning Markmar: You can throw out the Doc Thorne outcropping. The Thorne Placer is somewhere in the Sirera Anches Mountains and most probably in Cherry Creek. It is NO where near the Superstition Mountains. Read Thorne's own personal account given to John Spring and printed in the book, John Spring's Arizona, by Gustafson. This is the true account of his life with the Apaches and what he found. All this before the hack writers got hold of the story and Barry Storm put it in the Superstition Mountains and tried to tie it together with the Lost Dutchman Mine. But now we are starting to diverse from this thread about "The Brownie Holmes Manuscript". Need to get back to that subject. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[nobodie]

I have said in the past to keep it simple.

 

[markmar]

Gregory

Was just my opinion . And a blindfolded man's story leads only to " somewhere " and " probably " places . I believe no one have claimed how found his bonanza in Cherry Creek .
Sorry for the parenthesis , and now we can continue on Holmes manuscript theme .

 

[Not Peralta]

No matter what theory or story you choose to embrace, in case of his death, Jacob Waltz would have wanted Julia to be taken care of.
No one except Julia.
He knew people were hanging around hoping to get clues to his gold. But he didn't want Julia to be left out.
So he devised a plan to insure this. He knew Julia would never be able to find the mine herself, she would need the help of someone
familiar with the mtns. And someone she could trust. So the Dutchman, before he died, gave directions to what someone thought was his mine.
But it was only a small cache. But they had to take Julia with them. Once located, Julia would know if they could be trusted to share with her.
Either way, Julia, from this point would know how to find the mine.
But none of this ever happened. Greed took over just as soon as Jacob Waltz laid in his deathbed.
They stole his gold and who knows whatever else.
From this point on Julia could not trust anyone. Just because a few got greedy.
When all they probably had to do was take Julia with them into the mtns.
That's why Julia was always the key. Without her, well, you have seen the results over the years. NP

 

[cactusjumper]

No matter what theory or story you choose to embrace, in case of his death, Jacob Waltz would have wanted Julia to be taken care of.
No one except Julia.
He knew people were hanging around hoping to get clues to his gold. But he didn't want Julia to be left out.
So he devised a plan to insure this. He knew Julia would never be able to find the mine herself, she would need the help of someone
familiar with the mtns. And someone she could trust. So the Dutchman, before he died, gave directions to what someone thought was his mine.
But it was only a small cache. But they had to take Julia with them. Once located, Julia would know if they could be trusted to share with her.
Either way, Julia, from this point would know how to find the mine.
But none of this ever happened. Greed took over just as soon as Jacob Waltz laid in his deathbed.
They stole his gold and who knows whatever else.
From this point on Julia could not trust anyone. Just because a few got greedy.
When all they probably had to do was take Julia with them into the mtns.
That's why Julia was always the key. Without her, well, you have seen the results over the years. NP

NP,

I have always thought that Julia was the key, as you have written. She knew where to start the search, even though she might have started in the wrong canyon. She and Rhiney started there first search trying to go up Hog Canyon. That would have put them up on the main mountain ridge. That would have matched, by the way, the instructions that Adolph Ruth carried with him on his fateful last trip into the mountains.

Her next attempt to enter the mountains was at First Water. In that change of position, they bracketed the Massacre Grounds. Both Hog Canyon and going up through the Massacre Grounds would have provided them with this picture:





Some have speculated that Waltz found his gold ore at the massacre site and moved it into the mountains to hide it.

When Brownie Holmes started his methodical search for the mine, he started from the ridgeline of the main mountain. I believe it's more than possible that Dick Holmes had followed Julia and Rhiney on their first search, that led them to Hog Canyon where they attempt to go up it, and that's why Brownie started there.

Julia never found the view above, and I doubt Brownie or his dad ever knew about it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Hello All: What do you think Waltz meant by the first part of the instructions he gave to Holmes and Roberts on his death bed as he was trying to tell them the route they needed to travel to the mine; "Go to First Water, then to Second Water" as written in the Holmes Manuscript? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[cactusjumper]

Greg,

First, you have to believe he told them anything at all. I don't.

The box of Waltz ore was stolen while Julia was at Waltz's funeral. Did anyone else say that Holmes and Roberts were with Waltz
when he died?

Thanks,

Joe