Chasing Clarence Mitchell

[releventchair]

Hal, I don't have the document. I'll do what I can. I make no promises.

Generally, purchase contracts have three elements. An offer, an acceptance and consideration. I'm assuming (always dangerous) the non disclosure aspect was a part of the consideration. If breached, it would mean the value of the Non disclosure to the whole of the transaction had not been met. The terms (the lawyer speak fine print) would become all important and could mean the object (stones) would have to be returned or a dollar amount would come into play. Under the best case, the document would spell all that out. If not; the court would have to decide what the appropriate value of the non disclosure was at the outset of the transaction. Regardless; it would have given Mitchell ample $$$ reason to withhold the Tumlinson identity.

Those reading the agreement might tell if a clause or contingency may have been at play too , though it may not have had to be in writing.
How else to secure an agreement that could out a family name ...because once the cat was out of the bag , going to court would not put it back.

The stones without provenance are only stones after all , allowing future leverage for the seller. Even if they may not have held the whole cookie yet , (yet at the time of sale they knew the stones origins and value as treasure maps)they knew more than most.

 

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[Hal Croves]

Good morning Hal. I'm going to blow your mind. This hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm going to tell you this and then I HAVE to go get some work done.

I think we are both right. For different reasons but both right. Garry's words kept taking me back to the correspondence and I think its all there. Hidden but there.

I think it was a 2 stage transaction. Step one involved a partial purchase and took place at or near the time Aileen left Hood River. Don't know what was transferred then, but I strongly believe it was an incomplete package. I think there was a later purchase after Aileen was diagnosed and taking treatments at MD Anderson around May-June. That would be the second purchase which is the trip and meeting Joe remembers. To me that all makes sense and fits all things we can document. You and me. There were more Travis items in Mitchell's possession than just the stones. This scenario would take all of that into account.

Okay, I'll shut up now and let you think on this. Stop Applauding <g>

I double swear to you I have not seen or hear anything from the purchase agreement. But; I'm more eager than ever to see it now.

Lynda

Old,
First you don't need to double swear. I told you some time ago that I felt that you were a reliable source (honest) and worthy of my time. So, lets put that away.
Once the story (timeline is corrected), I won't feel the need to participate any longer and will have to move on. I think that I just heard a distant clapping.

But, I will tell you that you are very, very, close to understanding it and if you deduced that on your own, you deserve some serious credit. I had to ask for help.

Do me a favor and answer my questions with the month and year. A time line is what I mean and would help all of us.
And if you can pester your source for the date of that contract, and if you can share it, we, potentially can make that leap today.
I have to catch a train but will check in tonight.

I am seriously impressed.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

With their understanding of TNet rules and the authors permission to post their copyrighted material, does that rule still apply?
Please let me know.

Thank you TH.

Sorry Hal, I missed this post..

If you have the author's permission then yes you can post it, I was referring to posting with out author's permission.

 

[Old]

Whoa, Whoa. Hal. Easy.

We been over this <g>, I don't single handedly call the shots. Not by a Long ways. Doesn't make any difference how much I think the theory works it STILL has to go through the review and verification process. Several hands higher up the food chain have to take a look at this. I told you there was a pretty thorough check and review of stuff. I'm not kidding.

 

[Hal Croves]

Seems I’ve committed some faux pas. Let me take another whack at setting the record straight as to what’s going on and what is and isn’t going on with the current investigation into the Stone Maps.

There are 3 groups of people who follow the Stone Maps story. Those that believe 100% in the authenticity of the maps and their traditional discovery story. Those that 100% believe it’s a total and complete hoax. And; what I believe is the wide majority opinion, that there are bits of truth and bits of fantasy woven into a real story.

There is a current investigation into the life and history of Travis Tomlinson and his role in the Stone Maps history. The lead of that group is persona non grata to some folks. So; we will just leave that part lay. I play a small role in this investigation and will be happy to answer questions when I can, and to be a go between to direct you further when appropriate. Most of you know who to contact and where, and don’t need me to direct you. Your input is welcome. Some information is open and available, other information is not. I hope you understand and respect the difference and understand why some constraints are necessary.

The reason your input is wanted and welcome is twofold. Many of you have spent a life time researching and following the Stone Map trail. You are a resource and data bank of information to complete the story. You also represent a well experienced base to test the accuracy or fallacy of new found artifacts and leads. Who better? None, I’d say.

But; back to the research project. To fully understand the Stone Maps, their history and the involvement of Travis Tomlinson you have to understand the man. You have to get into his head and mind set. You need to understand fully his ancestry, his youth, his family relationships and interactions, parts of his troubled youth and his role as husband, father, son, grandson, son-in law, etc., etc.., all of it. You have to put yourself into his shoes and see the world of the Southern and Western United States in post-World War II. Only then will you have a window into understanding what drove the man. It will give you an advantage in gleaning truth from the Stone Maps, Challenge for Superstition Gold, and the events that followed the death of Travis Tomlinson.

Who better to give you that insight than those among us today that shared their lives with Travis and Aileen, and their daughter, Janie and her family? Travis’ family and friends have a wealth of information to provide insight into the man and what made him tick. They also have first-hand information to share with you concerning what they know of the Stones from their personal interaction with them.

Some of that information will support long held beliefs of the Stone’s history and origin. Some will challenge those beliefs to their very core. Are we, as a group of enthusiasts, up to challenge of having some of our previous thoughts vindicated and others dashed? Some are, and you are to be congratulated. It appears that others are not and wish to cast doubt and accusations of bad faith in every direction. That’s a waste of time and resources.

Some of those doing so are good minded researches who have much to bring to the table of knowledge. The hand of friendship and working together to a common goal of truth has been extended. Extended time and again. Far better to work together in harmony and mutual respect than to work to disparage and disrupt.

As to the controversy of Clarence Mitchell and his (actually Grace’s) July 1968 letter to the McGee’s. In the long run, I don’t think it really matters. We know Clarence Mitchell purchased the Stones from Aileen. Don’t think anyone disputes that. Where the controversy comes is Joe’s recollection of “the man” who visited the family farm to develop a relationship with them to help negotiate with Aileen over the purchase. We (collective group) feel 95% certain that was Clarence Mitchell. There is a 5% chance it was someone else. Joe, being a young teenager at the time doesn’t recall a name, but it does recall features of the man and his purpose for being there. That’s the story he is relating to you. If we (research group) are wrong it does little to change the outcome other than add the interesting possibility of a go-between purchaser.

NEWS ALERT…………We have access to a never before seen document to substantiate what we believe. We have access to the Purchase Contract drawn between Aileen, as seller and Clarence O. Mitchell as purchaser and the explicit requirement of secrecy of the Tomlinson family identity. I’m sure Mitchell did feel a moral obligation to Aileen but here we find there was also a LEGAL obligation to conceal that information…….from everyone, forever.

The interview with Joe that troubles some was done at a time when there was ZERO monetary incentive for Joe to embellish the story. The “story” at that time was only about Challenge for Superstition Gold. The rights to which belonged to the persona non grata. Further, Joe’s mother, who has given the name of the visitor as Clarence Mitchell has ZERO monetary interest in anything. Not then, not now.

As to what some believe are revelations as to Phil and his role……….Trust me; the investigation has a vast knowledge of Phil, his role and that of his descendants. He’s not new news to this story. You have been looking at his picture, as shown the ground map photo and others, for six months.

The folks who bring you first-hand knowledge have no obligation to share. When they do, its up to you to accept it gracefully and accept it as a gift. You are under no obligation to accept it blindly. Eye witness accounts vary depending on what was important to the beholder at the time. By all means use your own good judgment and analysis. Its up to you and your good judgment to determine with whom you find truth and genuine accounts. Its also up to you to determine who is motivated by ill intentions, jealousy and all other manner of disparaging acts. Choose wisely.

Morning Old,
Yes, you made it clear that all information released must pass thru the bishop's hands. Putting the date of that agreement aside for the time being, the two other dates, when Alleen left for Texas and when she was diagnosed, should already be in your notes and I am not sure that I understand your hesitation in posting it, unless it contradicts the story being told. That I could understand, needing time to adjust, that would be fair. Take your time on the contract and when you can, I think those following along would appreciate learning it's date.

I am reading back this morning and see that you credit the 68' letter to Grace. I am not sure that I agree with you on this. If you look at the collection, the letters that were written by Grace, I believe, almost always sign off with Grace & ________ (Several names used). The letters written by Clarence are signed Travis & Grace. The handwriting and content are also something to consider. It seems that someone who handled these letters understood that and made note of it in pencil. Again, this is just my opinion but, that 68' letter was written by Clarence.

I think, based on the information that has been shared with me, that Clarence obtained the stone maps in December of 1961, not in Texas, but at Alleen's home, before she moved to Texas. I also think that Clarence was a fairly decent man who came to Alleen's aid on more than one occasion. That makes me think that the "sucker" story, as it pertains to CO, is inaccurate. I guess it could be true however, it certainly paints a poor picture of Alleen.

Personally, I don't see her in that light. Not yet at least.

 

[Hal Croves]

Sorry Hal, I missed this post..

If you have the author's permission then yes you can post it, I was referring to posting with out author's permission.

Thank you TH.

 

[Old]

Hey Hal,

I'm just catching up. I'm going to say yes about Grace writing the particular letter you are referencing. I haven't gone back to look ( I'm just too tired today) but as I remember Grace did the most of the letter writing and Mitch would add shorter sections. Some letters are written just by Mitch. There are two letters during that time period where not being in Texas is mentioned. But; I think you are correct that the one carrying that date is Mitch's writing. The event they are talking about is the Fort Worth Expo.

Painting pictures might be premature .........on a number of things. Wait a time of patience. All things in their time will come.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hey Hal,

I'm just catching up. I'm going to say yes about Grace writing the particular letter you are referencing. I haven't gone back to look ( I'm just too tired today) but as I remember Grace did the most of the letter writing and Mitch would add shorter sections. Some letters are written just by Mitch. There are two letters during that time period where not being in Texas is mentioned. But; I think you are correct that the one carrying that date is Mitch's writing. The event they are talking about is the Fort Worth Expo.

Painting pictures might be premature .........on a number of things. Wait a time of patience. All things in their time will come.

There are two stories here that can not be told independent of each other if, the goal is to tell a complete story. It begins with Peg-leg T, and is then picked up by Travis and involves, I think to a large degree, Alleen's side of the family. While the extended Tumlinsons are part of it, I think their roll is measurable less than Philip L. and a few others. I am guessing here, but I think that there was some distance between the two families. That's just my opinion based on what has been released and the information that I have seen from other sources. We know that there are more interviews and more details that are being held private and I don't think that's unreasonable. I do hope Alleen's side of the family is participating as much if not more than those we have already heard from. Their story is one I would be interested in learning.

The other side of this story is Mitchell. Regardless of what some may think of him, to ignore his roll in this would be a huge mistake. Mitchell, for me, is the tread and key to connecting all these memories and ideas. Some how, at some point in the investigation, these two stories will have to come together. I see no other option to get things right this time. How that's accomplished will be something worth seeing. It will take compromise and a level of respect that is unfortunately unfamiliar here. I honestly don't know if that's possible. For sure, we will miss a great opportunity if its not.

I was going to hold this back for a while more, hoping that you would firm up the dates I asked for but honestly, they are not needed. So, with that, here is something worth reading and thinking about. Ryan now knows where to look and what to ask for and with a little luck, the stars will align. Its the only option and again, the only chance to get it right. Not that it will get anyone closer to a hidden treasure, all we can hope for is a much deeper understanding of what actually happened and when. For those of us passionate about history, understanding it might just be enough.



"But even though Travis Tumlinson and Clarence Mitchell had become friends and often had contact with each other, Travis Tumlinson remained aloof and somewhat remote and Clarence had to be satisfied with a secondary role in their Stone Map relationship. In September of 1961 Clarence Mitchell had just finished a long and detailed telephone conversation with Travis Tumlinson and his wife Alleen concerning the Stone Maps, their origin and where they might lead. About one month after that conversation Mitchell got an urgent call from Alleen Tumlinson informing him that Travis had died and Alleen requested that Mitchell meet with her as soon as he could make the arrangements.

Stunned and downhearted, Clarence Mitchell dropped everything and met with Alleen at her home in Hood River, Oregon. He was surprised when Travis’s widow informed him her husband wanted him to have the Stone Maps and continue on with the search for the mines and treasure. Travis Tumlinson’s illness and death had left the family with several financial obligations. Alleen Tumlinson had a young daughter (Alice) that she was raising and Alleen was shaken by her husband’s passing at the young age of 51. She asked Clarence Mitchell for assistance and Mitchell readily gave his friend’s widow the sum of approximately _________ dollars. Two years later, with Alleen Tumlinson near death at a Houston hospital, Clarence Mitchell would once again come to her financial and emotional aid.

It was October of 1961 and Clarence Mitchell was now the sole owner of the Tumlinson’s Stone Maps. In a letter to his friend Clyde Koyen dated December 26, 1961 Mitchell was elated to inform Koyen that he had received a special Christmas present that year, “ the Peralta Stone Maps.”


A Preview of the 2016 Superstition Mountain Historical Society Journal
Expected June/July Release.

This excerpt is sourced by taped conversations with Carol Mitchell (Clarence Mitchell's daughter) , Clyde Koyen ( Mitchell's friend and partner), and a letter written to Koyen from Mitchell dated December 26, 1961.
Author, copyright M.K. Robert.

I will step out of the picture here and wait like everyone else to see what happens.

 

[sgtfda]

Old. Great job on that subject we discussed. Thanks pointing the way on that. You do have a special talent for weeding out hidden historical facts on a incident.

 

[deducer]

That makes me think that the "sucker" story, as it pertains to CO, is inaccurate. I guess it could be true however, it certainly paints a poor picture of Alleen.

That "sucker" tale does fit in with what the SMM ended up acquiring, as far as obtaining "all of the stones."

 

[Old]

Hal, I'm going to say this one more time because I don't think you have grasped the full meaning of it. You have been looking at Phil's picture for six months. Study the meaning of that. You obviously discredit and doubt the seriousness and depth of this investigation and its primary sources. In those doubts, you are 180% incorrect. You must think we are dumber than dirt. When this all plays out your doubts of the depth of investigation and the people that you cast assertions of bad faith or lack of knowledge on are what is going to look really silly.

There is a ton of new and insightful information from the folks that knew this story best. Your lack of faith in what we are sharing with you and its sources is misguided. Have patience. There are good things to come. When its all said and done you can have a field day picking it apart. Until then, you are just guessing and on the wrong track.

The time line that concerns you so is prefaced with the word PRELIMINARY. Its the meat of the story. Minor details are subject to change. Larger details too as documents and artifacts are found. Its to partially describe how and why it all started. Who was involved and how they interacted that will play out to show you a different side of this long story and how it has been hijacked and mis-told for YEARS.

Yes, I now believe the purchase was a two step process. I did come to that understanding on my own. Actually standing in line to record a transaction just re-running the stories over in my mind and how some pieces fit one place and others fit another. Yes, the lure of all this fills a lot of my down time. Just call me a geek.

I have to document the reasons and available facts to my theory. The accuracy of my "theory" will be judged by those in charge. If found accurate, it changes little in the outcome. Its proper place in the time line can be resolved with a foot note. Its not the be all and end all of the story, its a minor event in a much larger story.

Signing off for now. Happy hunting

Lynda

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, I'm going to say this one more time because I don't think you have grasped the full meaning of it. You have been looking at Phil's picture for six months. Study the meaning of that. You obviously discredit and doubt the seriousness and depth of this investigation and its primary sources. In those doubts, you are 180% incorrect. You must think we are dumber than dirt. When this all plays out your doubts of the depth of investigation and the people that you cast assertions of bad faith or lack of knowledge on are what is going to look really silly.

There is a ton of new and insightful information from the folks that knew this story best. Your lack of faith in what we are sharing with you and its sources is misguided. Have patience. There are good things to come. When its all said and done you can have a field day picking it apart. Until then, you are just guessing and on the wrong track.

The time line that concerns you so is prefaced with the word PRELIMINARY. Its the meat of the story. Minor details are subject to change. Larger details too as documents and artifacts are found. Its to partially describe how and why it all started. Who was involved and how they interacted that will play out to show you a different side of this long story and how it has been hijacked and mis-told for YEARS.

Yes, I now believe the purchase was a two step process. I did come to that understanding on my own. Actually standing in line to record a transaction just re-running the stories over in my mind and how some pieces fit one place and others fit another. Yes, the lure of all this fills a lot of my down time. Just call me a geek.

I have to document the reasons and available facts to my theory. The accuracy of my "theory" will be judged by those in charge. If found accurate, it changes little in the outcome. Its proper place in the time line can be resolved with a foot note. Its not the be all and end all of the story, its a minor event in a much larger story.

Signing off for now. Happy hunting

Lynda

Yes Old,
We have been looking at that picture for some time now and understand that everything you post and say concerning your research is PRELIMINARY. I get it and think its safe to say that we all get that now. Its a great position to take.

Again, I am on the sidelines now, passively following along and will wait for the final product. Nothing wrong with seeing it for what it is thou, an interesting story with an unresolved ending. Something to think about when composing your next sermon.

I would like to leave it here if at all possible and let you focus on your research and filling in the details.

Thanks Old.