Ted Cox and the Ridge Pit Mine

[markmar]

What reference could you point me to as to why Bicknell changed the clue? I am not saying I don't believe you, I simply want to research it further.

I take it you don't accept Jesse Feldman's conclusion that the 2 room 'house' at the north end of Roger's Canyon is the house mentioned in one of the LDM 'clues,' or, even, the rockhouse below the Pit Mine itself. Guess this is why the Legend continues.. honest disagreements among folks who've given a lot of thought, time and effort to research & explore.

George

You wrote about a rock house below Pit mine and a ruin of a house in a cave more than one mile afar . None of these two clues fit with the Waltz clue about the roofless two room house .
First , the house ruin in a cave found by Bicknell is more than 200 feet from the Pit mine .
And second , the rock house below Pit mine is to the east . According to Waltz clue , the shalow cave beside the house ruin was facing north and according to Jim Bark's notes , Dr. Thorne saw the stone ruins to the left of the gold outcropping ( residual placer before Waltz dug it ) , so the two room house ruin lies to the west of the mine .

I post a diagram of the LDM region attached to a topo map , to see where is located the house and the mines .
The blue line is 140 feet long and the house ruin is about 45 feet higher than the Tunnel LDM .
The red line is about 235 feet long and the inclined LDM shaft is about 50 feet higher than the Tunnel LDM .
From the inclined LDM shaft you can't see the house ruin , so you can understand for which mine is the clue with the house ruin .
Maybe one day I will write the right clues for every mine separately .

 

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[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Alan and George,

All wonderful EXCEPT Waltz described his mine in detail, including the two veins that ran through it. The quartz vein sounds a lot like the vein in the Pit Mine. BUT......next to that, there was a vein of soft dark gray (Hematite?) you could pick out with a knife blade that had nuggets the size of wheat grains. That was NOT in the Pit Mine.

........and it was NOT a cache site.

Mike

What is the source of this information? No backup and it is just a tale. thanks in advance!

 

[Al D]

Alan and George,

All wonderful EXCEPT Waltz described his mine in detail, including the two veins that ran through it. The quartz vein sounds a lot like the vein in the Pit Mine. BUT......next to that, there was a vein of soft dark gray (Hematite?) you could pick out with a knife blade that had nuggets the size of wheat grains. That was NOT in the Pit Mine.

........and it was NOT a cache site.

Mike

Yes he did, he also contradicted himself. So.......

 

[Curious_George]

To both Gollum & MarkMar,

What specific criteria are you using to filter out the made up, speculative, even at times artfully contrived "bad" clues to the LDM, and to leave on the sorting table the valid, trustworthy "good" clues?

I am not disagreeing with your information (and am very glad to have information new to me brought up) simply pointing out that to a HUGE extent (99.99%?), any single specific clue can be viewed as either "good" or "bad", in large part based on the "clue criteria" used to sort out the good' uns from the bad 'uns.

I think it is reasonable to start with the assumption (that's clearly what it is) that not all clues are accurate, no matter who they are supposedly from. That's 2 assumptions in the last sentence, and I'm just getting started.

To me, the LDM= Pit mine makes sense from, as I said before, a geologic, historic & social engineering p.o.v.

Leaving out the strong possibility that some people deliberately lied, some embellished clues for fun, others for profit.. and still others may have had even more tangled, deeper, more sinister motivations, it's clear to me that

a the LDM has already been found & thoroughly worked or

b the LDM has not been found.

Yes, I have a talent for stating the obvious.

As the member who started this thread said, the only thing holding me back from a 100% endorsement of the Pit mine= the LDM is the complete absence of any traces of gold in ore from the Pit mine dump.


George

 

[cactusjumper]

Tom Kollenborn told me that Ted Cox had a serious problem with the truth. His Brother, on the other hand, was a person you could trust. In researching the Iron Mountain and the Pit Mine stories you would be well served to, at least, keep that in mind.

Merry Christmas to all,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[PotBelly Jim]

George,

Well said.

Regarding the absence any traces of gold in the pit mine dump: If I found a sealed mine, I think the first thing I'd do is hit that area hard with a metal detector. I would be looking for ore samples from previous dumps. Let's say I found some, processed it, and it contained silver and gold. I would probably go over the area again with a fine-toothed comb, maybe even process some dump specimens that didn't set off my metal detector...just for a look-see...

If I later opened the mine, I would NOT send any dump to the surface that contained obvious mineralization...it would all be stored somewhere and taken away when safe to do so. Maybe I would dump it down an existing shaft nearby...maybe I would use it to fill in another hole down there...what I wouldn't do, is pile it up on the ground outside the mine...

Is that what the pit mine operators did during those 3 years they were in the area? The answer seems obvious...but then again, maybe they were just looking for a cache of ore that they believed was still down there.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy George,

As you may know, a list was made of 100 clues to the LDM, and as you pointed out most of them are made up for different reasons. So how can we narrow down that list of clues to find the real one's, or better said, the most likely to be real? I just kept the one's that are listed as Waltz,s quotes. I also believe that the German clues were well taken by Herman, even though they are a little hard to follow, and Waltz's deathbed confession should be a keeper.

Take for example, "No miner will find my mine"....(Waltz) That alone tells you that the "Silver" Chief pit mine is not the LDM. The pit mine is where many miners searched, and found minerals, the geology is right. Waltz was saying that his mine is not where a prospector would be finding minerals. Oh but Ted said ........Ted Cox was one of the guys that Waltz was protecting his mine from, he never got any real clues from Waltz.

When facts are stated here, it creates brainstorms that wreak havoc to what little truth is out there. There was no gold found in the pit mine dump because it was a silver mine, not the LDM, that is the obvious. None of the clues that are most likely to come from Waltz, fit into the pit mine. The gunsight clue was made up for the pit mine, and even that made up clue does not fit without having to move a mountain.

Homar

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hey Homar, Merry Christmas Amigo!

Regarding the mine dump: If the Pit Mine is indeed the Silver Chief, are you saying there was no gold found in the Silver Chief? C'mon, man...I know you're pretty adamant about the Pit Mine not being the LDM, and that's OK with me by the way, I have no idea where the LDM is, but everyone knows that the Silver Chief produced some rich pockets of gold...it's documented...now I know some people have hit that area pretty hard with a metal detector and found no silver either...so based on the fact there's not much in way of precious metals laying about for all to see around the mine, maybe it was a dirt clod mine? Lots of dirt around there.

Regarding Ted Cox getting clues from JW: I didn't think he ever met Waltz But as Joe points out Tom K. knew the guy...and most of us have read some of his stuff...I don't think Cox is someone I would rely on...but then again I don't see much daylight between anything Cox said and all the other "clues" and "maps" I've seen either.

So I guess my two cents for sorting the wheat from the chaff on the clues: They're ALL bunk...if you follow them, it's a well-worn path that leads nowhere. At least there's plenty of company down that road, but not much in way of gold.

Take care, Jim

 

[markmar]

Jim

I believe there is not any trace of gold and silver around Pit mine , because all the stuff mined from the mine was carried to the Rogers mill down ridge . See , Anglos were not looking only for the best specimens like the Spanish and Mexicans who were sorting the ore at the mine place , but they wanted the last spec of what would been precious metal .

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Marius, excellent point...I think I was also using the term "dump" incorrectly? Dave did a good post about the definitions of the different terms...I will have to go back and find it...but yes, I'm sure I was using the term incorrectly...just to clarify, I was talking about the stuff in the shaft and up on the ridge...

 

[markmar]

Jim

I remember Dave wrote how the dump is the low grade ore left beside the mine and tailings are the dust of rocks left after the milling of the ore .

Edited :

I found the Dave's post . Is the #1450 at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...67-pit-mine-really-lost-dutchman-mine-97.html

 

[coazon de oro]

Hey Homar, Merry Christmas Amigo!

Regarding the mine dump: If the Pit Mine is indeed the Silver Chief, are you saying there was no gold found in the Silver Chief? C'mon, man...I know you're pretty adamant about the Pit Mine not being the LDM, and that's OK with me by the way, I have no idea where the LDM is, but everyone knows that the Silver Chief produced some rich pockets of gold...it's documented...now I know some people have hit that area pretty hard with a metal detector and found no silver either...so based on the fact there's not much in way of precious metals laying about for all to see around the mine, maybe it was a dirt clod mine? Lots of dirt around there.

Regarding Ted Cox getting clues from JW: I didn't think he ever met Waltz But as Joe points out Tom K. knew the guy...and most of us have read some of his stuff...I don't think Cox is someone I would rely on...but then again I don't see much daylight between anything Cox said and all the other "clues" and "maps" I've seen either.

So I guess my two cents for sorting the wheat from the chaff on the clues: They're ALL bunk...if you follow them, it's a well-worn path that leads nowhere. At least there's plenty of company down that road, but not much in way of gold.

Take care, Jim

Hola Jim, and Merry Christmas back at you, and everyone else. I was a bit over medicated last night due to pain, so if you will excuse my errors, I'll try and just go to bed next time.

Ted was not even born until after Waltz was long gone, last night I was confusing him and James Roger, the original finder of the Silver Chief. There were a lot of prospectors, and miners searching for minerals in those mountains in Waltz era, and he was protecting his mine from them. The only ones he gave real clues to were Julia Thomas, Rhiney Petrash, Dick Holmes, and Gildeon Roberts. Not sure if I got the names spelled right.

Homar

Yes the Silver Chief had pockets of gold, but pockets of gold in a silver mine are not "enough gold in sight to make millionaires out of twenty men".

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Homar,

I hear ya, hope you feel better soon.

I’m only holdin’ a pair of 3’s, but I’m gonna call you and splash the pot…

To make 20 men millionaires…First, we have to believe Waltz actually said that…Then, we have to believe he could accurately estimate what was in the mine (who can do that?), and then that he wasn’t exaggerating…

20 million dollars = about 1 million ounces in 1891 dollars…

Somewhere around 2-3 times what the Vulture produced over its lifetime…

 

[deducer]

To both Gollum & MarkMar,

What specific criteria are you using to filter out the made up, speculative, even at times artfully contrived "bad" clues to the LDM, and to leave on the sorting table the valid, trustworthy "good" clues?

I am not disagreeing with your information (and am very glad to have information new to me brought up) simply pointing out that to a HUGE extent (99.99%?), any single specific clue can be viewed as either "good" or "bad", in large part based on the "clue criteria" used to sort out the good' uns from the bad 'uns.

I think it is reasonable to start with the assumption (that's clearly what it is) that not all clues are accurate, no matter who they are supposedly from. That's 2 assumptions in the last sentence, and I'm just getting started.

George

George,

Not to try to answer for the other two, but you bring up a very valid and interesting point. We are dealing with a subject where deception is the norm rather than the exception, and where information or clues are intentionally misleading and the truth of the various stories have been bent, if not outright made up. When nothing is as they seem, how do you sort out what is factual and what is not? How do you figure out what really happened?

For me, I think that one of the best methods to filter out false information is to just comb through the vast trove of information to get a sense of certain patterns that arise, information that continually get repeated or are verified or corroborated by independent, unrelated sources. The other important thing is to get out there in the mountains to see what makes sense and what doesn't make sense.

I do not rely on or subscribe to popular opinion, or go along with what most people believe in just for the sake of identifying with the majority. Just because someone is well-respected or very knowledgeable, doesn't mean they are always right, or not susceptible. We are all human, after all.

Finding objectivity, or being objective with this subject is quite difficult and maddening, but I like the challenge.

 

[deducer]

Homar,

I hear ya, hope you feel better soon.

I’m only holdin’ a pair of 3’s, but I’m gonna call you and splash the pot…

To make 20 men millionaires…First, we have to believe Waltz actually said that…Then, we have to believe he could accurately estimate what was in the mine (who can do that?), and then that he wasn’t exaggerating…

20 million dollars = about 1 million ounces in 1891 dollars…

Somewhere around 2-3 times what the Vulture produced over its lifetime…

Jim,

I've wondered if he didn't actually say something far more simple, and over time and the countless re-tellings, it simply got embellished.

 

[sdcfia]

George,

Not to try to answer for the other two, but you bring up a very valid and interesting point. We are dealing with a subject where deception is the norm rather than the exception, and where information or clues are intentionally misleading and the truth of the various stories have been bent, if not outright made up. When nothing is as they seem, how do you sort out what is factual and what is not? How do you figure out what really happened?

For me, I think that one of the best methods to filter out false information is to just comb through the vast trove of information to get a sense of certain patterns that arise, information that continually get repeated or are verified or corroborated by independent, unrelated sources. The other important thing is to get out there in the mountains to see what makes sense and what doesn't make sense.

I do not rely on or subscribe to popular opinion, or go along with what most people believe in just for the sake of identifying with the majority. Just because someone is well-respected or very knowledgeable, doesn't mean they are always right, or not susceptible. We are all human, after all.

Finding objectivity, or being objective with this subject is quite difficult and maddening, but I like the challenge.

If there is any truth at all to any lost mine rumor, there is no reason to believe that any person in the know of accurate information is ever going to reveal it to anyone other than a family member - and a trusted one at that. Look in the mirror and think about it.

 

[markmar]

If there is any truth at all to any lost mine rumor, there is no reason to believe that any person in the know of accurate information is ever going to reveal it to anyone other than a family member - and a trusted one at that. Look in the mirror and think about it.

Steve , like deducer wrote , if you want to find any lost mine , look at all accounts about a mine and you can make a general image of what is accurate or not by crisscrossing the clues . Of course boots on the ground to ensure your theory is the best proof .
Also , that don't exclude new info told/wrote by people who want to help in a research . Is on your intuition to feel when someone give accurate info , or on your knowledge .
The LDM is very hard to be find . Don't forget Waltz in the German clues said " The mine is to the north but you can't find it without me " .

BTW , Merry Christmas to everyone !

 

[azdave35]

Steve , like deducer wrote , if you want to find any lost mine , look at all accounts about a mine and you can make a general image of what is accurate or not by crisscrossing the clues . Of course boots on the ground to ensure your theory is the best proof .
Also , that don't exclude new info told/wrote by people who want to help in a research . Is on your intuition to feel when someone give accurate info , or on your knowledge .
The LDM is very hard to be find . Don't forget Waltz in the German clues said " The mine is to the north but you can't find it without me " .

BTW , Merry Christmas to everyone !

marius...anything in the superstitions is hard to find...too much overgrowth of weeds..trees...cholla..

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

I hear ya, hope you feel better soon.

I’m only holdin’ a pair of 3’s, but I’m gonna call you and splash the pot…

To make 20 men millionaires…First, we have to believe Waltz actually said that…Then, we have to believe he could accurately estimate what was in the mine (who can do that?), and then that he wasn’t exaggerating…

20 million dollars = about 1 million ounces in 1891 dollars…

Somewhere around 2-3 times what the Vulture produced over its lifetime…

Hola Jim,

I am going to fold my royal flush, you can keep all the beans we were playing for. They are not worth it for me to spill the beans here

Homar

 

[markmar]

marius...anything in the superstitions is hard to find...too much overgrowth of weeds..trees...cholla..

Dave , I agree . Everything in this world changes every day . I saw paths which in few years became inaccesible because the brush and weed . Sometimes I couldn't recognize a region after a decade . Imagine how different would be a region in the wilds after 100 years . Totally different .