Did Waltz really have a rich mine?

[Injunbro]

Was the dutchman telling the truth ?? Many an old prospecter as he was ending his active life told of the big strike, etc, that he had made, but for one reason or another was unable to return to it. So was he telling the whole truth, did he in fact hit big, but ?

I think what Walz actually said was true, he had plenty of money to live comfortably in his old age. He's been accredited w/ a lot of doubtful statements he probably never made. Even a good map can lead a person whose never been to the area astray pretty easily. For example when Walz told where his mine was he used a common term of the day to describe a certain peak, Horse Cock Mountain. Unfortunately this name was used for several peaks, Weavers Needle, Squaw Peak (the 1 near Black Canyon City), Miners Needle, etc.. Using the one near BCC the directions will lead you to the mine he & Peralta worked (don't waste your time, the mine is worked out & even the bits of junk dragged off). At least some of the caches (both his & Apache) in the Sup's are likely still there, the fun part would be sorting out which set of directions go to which cache, what information is made up, etc.. Chatting about it is fun but again, I'm not selling maps & am too old & busted up to bring anyone hiking or prospecting in the Sups.

 

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[Injunbro]

Welcome and thanks for the update. I can easily believe in caches and the Apaches needing Turquoise to swap for the gold. That from a friend of mine that is 1/4 Apache.
No I don't know where he saw the gold and didn't want to find out the hard way.

You're more than welcome but why would the Apaches need turquoise to swap for gold? They already had more gold than they knew what to do w/. Some Apaches liked turquoise but it was more treasured by the pueblo tribes. I guess they could have traded for sheep or blankets or something...

 

[cactusjumper]

You're more than welcome but why would the Apaches need turquoise to swap for gold? They already had more gold than they knew what to do w/. Some Apaches liked turquoise but it was more treasured by the pueblo tribes. I guess they could have traded for sheep or blankets or something...

Injunbro,

There is even less evidence for the Apache knowing the location of the LDM than the legend itself.

IMHO, anyone who believes the Apache will someday lead anyone to the LDM is chasing a pipedream. Those who would follow such a guide are following a lie and a dishonest pied piper.

Why would any Apache give up such a valuable piece of information to the white man?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sdcfia]

Injunbro,

There is even less evidence for the Apache knowing the location of the LDM than the legend itself.

IMHO, anyone who believes the Apache will someday lead anyone to the LDM is chasing a pipedream. Those who would follow such a guide are following a lie and a dishonest pied piper.

Why would any Apache give up such a valuable piece of information to the white man?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

The Apache were clever and cautious with their knowledge and use of gold. Notwithstanding the popular "tears of Ussen" nonsense, Mangas Coloradas's band knew where it could be found in in abundance the Santa Rita/Pinos Altos area, based on the Spanish history there, and used it to trade for weapons and other goods - mostly out of Janos MX. Cozzins talks about Mangas's secret gold mine in his Marvelous Country, based on his adventures in the 1850s. Other bands may have had knowledge of other gold sources in the southwest too, but the so-called "thunder gods" business in the Superstitions is pure-D horse hockey, IMO, dreamed up to further sensationalize the Waltz saga.

Why indeed would the Apache reveal valuable information to Whitey? For that matter, why would Whitey reveal same to another Whitey? Reality often sucks, eh?

 

[audigger53]

The friend of mine was "invited" to go hunting with 2 other Apaches because they knew of his Grandfather. He showed up with nothing but a hunting knife. "Where's your gun?" "Didn't figure I needed one." At that they smiled and told him he was an Apache. Later they found a cave and there was gold nuggets laying there. One of them said, "Wish we had some turquoise to swap for the gold." Because they didn't have any they left the gold. My friend was smart enough to not try and pick up any. That's the story he told me, and I never caught him ever telling any lies to me or others, so I believe his story. Again he never told me where the cave was but I believe it was in New Mexico rather than Texas where he was living when I first meet him.

 

[sdcfia]

The friend of mine was "invited" to go hunting with 2 other Apaches because they knew of his Grandfather. He showed up with nothing but a hunting knife. "Where's your gun?" "Didn't figure I needed one." At that they smiled and told him he was an Apache. Later they found a cave and there was gold nuggets laying there. One of them said, "Wish we had some turquoise to swap for the gold." Because they didn't have any they left the gold. My friend was smart enough to not try and pick up any. That's the story he told me, and I never caught him ever telling any lies to me or others, so I believe his story. Again he never told me where the cave was but I believe it was in New Mexico rather than Texas where he was living when I first meet him.

With all due respect, digger, how would you know this story was true? Don't get me wrong - your faith in your friend is admirable, but it's no guarantee his story is true. In fact, I had a friend, now deceased, who told me a very similar story several years ago. He even gave me a photo of the cave with the gold lying on the floor, protected by Apache mojo, etc, etc. This friend told me lots of good stories before he died (he was needy for attention), but I can't say that I believed them. Good picture though. He also gave me a photo of the unusual rock formation at the cave entrance. I won't post that one, just in case the story was true. Ha ha.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cheeken SDC How ever the country at tayopa has a distnct limestone division at it's base between the c country rock and the Basalt layer, which has been eroded by water in some places where nuggets simply feel to the floor, so it is not beyond reason SDC. The Indians here refuse to go in because they say that they lose their sense of direction and can not leave with any of the gold, they have to put it back before they can find their way back out again. Sooooooo

 

[markmar]

Injunbro

You wrote : "There's a sacred cave where gold was cached, no there's none there now, nor will I tell you how to find it (I'm Christian but respect their religion). "

This shows how you know where this sacred cave and the Holy land are, and maybe from what I will write below , you will understand how we speak the " same language "
You wrote about the Horse Cock Mountain like it is a single peak . I believe here you are wrong ( intentionaly ? ) in this description .
The Horse and the Cock are two separated landmarks of a specific mountain . The Horse is a rock formation which is on the mountain edge and below the sacred land . The Cock represent the land shape above the Horse , which looks like a cock's comb ( waved with small canyons between ) . The Holy land is the first comb's peak above the Horse . If you are looking at this side of the mountain , you can see the Horse and above the comb and you could call this place a Horse Cock ( a horse with comb ) .
This name for sure was given by the Apaches and maybe Waltz had heard about it from his Apache girlfriend .
So , amigo , we are speaking the " same language " ?

 

[audigger53]

With all due respect, digger, how would you know this story was true? Don't get me wrong - your faith in your friend is admirable, but it's no guarantee his story is true.

Well the other story he told me and we researched and went looking for, I found all of his landmarks (which are gone now, Mother Nature). Sorry to say I was rather sick when I saw the ravine. Hopefully will get back there this Oct and show up with some samples for you to look at. Natural Sluice Box. Rock walled on both sides and at both ends. As long as the walls hold, the gold is still there.

 

[Eldo]

Jacob Walz.....AKA Jacob Waltz.....

AKA KGC Agent JB WARD

Beale Papers....look it up.....a very dark complection, a very tanned man walks into an Inn in Bedford, VA and leaves a box that contains the remnants of the history of the 30 men found at Massacre Point and tells the man to delay the opening if he doesnt return.

The papers later decipher to reveal a "Perilous Enterprise" was working a mine system with 30 men from VA who were solicited by a high ranking KGC Operative and Forger......

James Reavis.....the man in St. Louis who both fabricated the claim to the valley, and also arranged for the men to pick up supplies and the necessary paperwork to slip into the valley to mine gold for Rockefeller and JP Morgan.

When they were found out, they sent Waltz back to VA with the codes to the locations and the places they left their stashes out.

If you look at the Peralta Stones and carbon date them it will reveal the actual date of the stone as the carvings were made......

Whatever even happened to the Mexicano that Waltz was said to have saved the life of?? The member of the Gonzales family?

I am willing to doubt that story is true.......

I am more inclined to feel that becasue of all the murders Waltz was implicated in that he was far more than a kind 'Savior' of a wounded Mexican from a band of Apaches attacking.

Waltz was a KGC Operative and that is how he was given the location to the richest mine system of the 18 mines.....the fabled high "Saddle" mine....

NO TRAVELLER JUST COMES FROM GERMANY AND MAKES HIS LIVING ACCIDENTALLY FINDING A GOLD MINE LIKE THAT>>>>>>>

He came right through NYC......to Philly..........where he then went to AZ.......?

What would cause you to just run out there and abandon all of the rest of civilization?

Who was in those two towns is what the question should be.......

ROCKEFELLER IN PA AND JP MORGAN IN NYC

Standard Oil goes bankrupt and the Black Gold Rush then turns to another more sinister tale.......the Perilous Enterprise that the 30 found at Massacre Point worked for....

 

[azdave35]

Injunbro

You wrote : "There's a sacred cave where gold was cached, no there's none there now, nor will I tell you how to find it (I'm Christian but respect their religion). "

This shows how you know where this sacred cave and the Holy land are, and maybe from what I will write below , you will understand how we speak the " same language "
You wrote about the Horse Cock Mountain like it is a single peak . I believe here you are wrong ( intentionaly ? ) in this description .
The Horse and the Cock are two separated landmarks of a specific mountain . The Horse is a rock formation which is on the mountain edge and below the sacred land . The Cock represent the land shape above the Horse , which looks like a cock's comb ( waved with small canyons between ) . The Holy land is the first comb's peak above the Horse . If you are looking at this side of the mountain , you can see the Horse and above the comb and you could call this place a Horse Cock ( a horse with comb ) .
This name for sure was given by the Apaches and maybe Waltz had heard about it from his Apache girlfriend .
So , amigo , we are speaking the " same language " ?

if its the same cave i'm thinking about..anyone that takes gold out of it wont live to see the end of the day...its got a nasty curse on it

 

[cactusjumper]

if its the same cave i'm thinking about..anyone that takes gold out of it wont live to see the end of the day...its got a nasty curse on it

Dave,



Take care,

Joe

 

[Carl995]

if its the same cave i'm thinking about..anyone that takes gold out of it wont live to see the end of the day...its got a nasty curse on it

Curse removal tool..........

View attachment 1340080

 

[cactusjumper]

Curse removal tool..........

View attachment 1340080

Carrol,

A .45 works just as well, and makes a lot less noise.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Curse removal tool..........

View attachment 1340080

 

[Injunbro]

Markmar, Cactus Jumper, AZDav: rather than reply to each of you I'll try to consolidate. Yes, I know where the sacred cave is but no I won't share that information out of respect to friends & relatives who believe it's sacred. Yes, it's supposed to be cursed but a lot of the curse comes from regular visits from Apaches who still don't like what Whites have done to them & the temptation to whack one when there are no witnesses is strong, especially if they're disrespectful. I haven't been there since I was a young man 35+ years ago & see no reason to go to all the work of hiking back there again. Re: 'why would an Apache give up anything to Whitey?' Beats me, it never worked out before! The "Horse Cock Mountain" I was referring to does look exactly like that part of a horses anatomy, there is a large boulder shaped like a horse head nearby. Weavers Needle & Miners Needle also resemble a horse cock from the right viewpoint but I was referring to the one near Black Canyon City. I never intentionally lead anyone astray, I'll simply say I'm not telling you all the details (like how to get to the sacred cave). I know where there's some good placer spots & unworked gold veins but no, I'm not sharing those or even which mountains they're in. As long as my pension holds out my wife & I are doing ok so probably will never touch them. Nope sorry, being 1/2 Red & 1/2 White makes me sort of an outcast on both sides & I won't be sharing it w/ anyone, except possibly my son or a young friend I've known his whole life... and only then if they're truly desperate. A gold mine isn't really a blessing, only a different set of problems.

 

[nobodie]

I had said that I believe that the area is a sacred burial ground.

 

[Injunbro]

I had said that I believe that the area is a sacred burial ground.

Yes, it is. More than 1 Haatalie (medicine man) & their families buried there.

 

[nobodie]

There's a guardian watching the site. The area I am in might be the same one you're talking about. But I have no intention of telling anyone were it is, I respect the site and and don't want anyone there.

 

[sdcfia]

... Waltz was a KGC Operative ...

You won't find any traction in the LDM forums for this idea, even though Waltz certainly fits the profile of Brewer's alleged "sentinel", ie, a caretaker of a cache(s) owned by folks who deflect attention away from the goods by inventing erroneous "legends" in the area of activity.

A review of what little we know from Waltz's history shows us that he began his US life in Natchez in the 1840s. Natchez - in Adams County MS - was an early KGC hotbed. Waltz later spent quite a few years in CA, much of his time in the general area of Paso Robles - another conspiratorial hotbed of Southern dissent, with family ties to none other than Jesse James. He was ostensibly involved in mining during his CA years. Then AZ, with more mining. Not an unusual occupation of course, but also an alleged method of creating a nice usable hole in the ground. Lots of roaming in central AZ for Waltz - "prospecting". Wasn't there some time spent in Adamsville too? Today's KGC people consider it to be important, anyway.

Anyway, the mysterious Waltz died and left lost mine rumors that have had folks running in circles ever since. IMO, there is something of great value hidden somewhere in central AZ that Waltz unexplainably knew something about. Was the CSA secret service involved somehow? The French from Villemont's time, out of New Orleans? The Jesuit snoops? It likely will never come to light. It's an interesting subject that requires careful filtering, tons of research and critical thinking. It's easier to cling to the LDM/Peralta Stone legends.