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Thread: The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

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  1. #16

    Mar 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    i dont think politicians care how they look as long as they are getting rich
    That still doesn't detract from the fact that the US Army's usual mode of warfare was useless against the Apache up until they needed "an Apache to catch an Apache."


    IPUK
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  2. #17

    Mar 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    IP,

    The Apache were masters of the hide and seek game. When you have soldiers on horseback searching millions of square miles for a very few Apache, just how likely were they to succeed? In the end, they lost their land. The only reason they didn't last longer, is that we worked out a deal with Mexico for both sides to pursue across the border. It's just simple history.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo


    CJ,


    It is your prerogative if you wish to reduce the complexities of what was taking place at that time to "simple history".

    I would say things were a tad more complicated.


    The soldiers were indeed on horseback; so were the Apache. I'm not sure it really was "millions of square miles" they were searching as, before launching any campaign, intelligence played its part so one did simply not set out with the hope of coming across Apaches off the reservation.

    In the end, they lost their lands and freedoms alright, many lost their lives as well. But as Dakhlugie related to Eve Ball in the 1950s: "The Chiricahua bands still 'out' knew it was a lost cause and futile...., but that still didn't stop them..."

    Also, you say that they "didn't last longer due to the cross border deal with Mexico." I believe you are referring to the 'official' end of the Apache Wars with Chief Naiche's and Geronimo's surrender in 1886. There was still Apache living 'free', albeit in a vastly reduced sense of the word, in the Sierra Madres well into the middle of the 20th century.

    We have this survival expert here in the UK called Ray Mears. He makes various documentaries about the most difficult places for human beings to survive across the globe. He knows his stuff. Not sure if his programmes are ever aired in the US. Anyway, he went to Arizona and showed how the Apache survived and even prospered in this most unforgiving of terrains, and he showed their methods and how their were/are so innovative in using what was around them in helping them to perfect a way of life where others would simply flounder in a matter of days. He also stated that some methods have been incorporated into UK special forces' training in how to survive in mountainous and desert areas. In addition, he stated that these guys knew their stuff when it came to living in such conditions. No sentimentality - simply stating the facts.

    Of course their way of live was going to end in the face of such overwhelming odds. I for one, cannot help but admire their will to keep going. I am not justifying any of the atrocities on both sides nor condemning the truly abominable harshness of the times, but for some, the spirit of freedom is in itself something to reflect on.


    IPUK
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  3. #18
    it
    Sep 2016
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    INJUBRO..I accuse you of racial discrimination no OIRISH ??

  4. #19
    it
    Sep 2016
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    IPUK,I equate the Apache with the 'terrorist' of today, they obviously believe in thier philosophy to the point that they are willing to commit suicide in it's name, Why can't the military get rid of them? Incidentally most of their TRIBE lived peacefully.

    How are the Apache of today faring in your country ?
    Last edited by Real of Tayopa; Oct 21, 2016 at 06:04 PM.

  5. #20
    it
    Sep 2016
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    INJUBRO..I accuse you of racial discrimination no OIRISH ?? Incidently, that is R D T not ROT, hmmmmm, come to think of it --------------------
    Last edited by Real of Tayopa; Oct 21, 2016 at 10:30 AM.

  6. #21

    Mar 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real of Tayopa View Post
    IPUK,I equate the Apache with the 'terrorist' of today, they obviously believe in thier philosophy to the point that they are willing to commit suicide in it's name, Why can't the military get rid of them? Incidentally most of their TRIBE live peacefully. as did the Apache.

    How are the Apache of today faring in your country ?
    Don,



    You call the Apaches the 'terrorists' of their day...I am sure you've got your reason(s), but I do not think I can follow that process. Would you have called the Irish collecting money in New York for the IRA back for the 'freedom fighters' in the old country, terrorists?
    After all, they wanted to buy weapons to kill English people in England for 'occupying their country'. Or maybe the British government was guilty of being the 'terrorists'?
    I think your comparison is slightly exaggerated...

    Your final sentence doesn't make sense in the extreme. However I am sure you know this and had a response ready and I think I can guess it..., but again that is a silly comparison to make.

    My opinion only.


    IPUK
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  7. #22
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interested Party in UK View Post
    Don,



    You call the Apaches the 'terrorists' of their day...I am sure you've got your reason(s), but I do not think I can follow that process. Would you have called the Irish collecting money in New York for the IRA back for the 'freedom fighters' in the old country, terrorists?
    After all, they wanted to buy weapons to kill English people in England for 'occupying their country'. Or maybe the British government was guilty of being the 'terrorists'?
    I think your comparison is slightly exaggerated...

    Your final sentence doesn't make sense in the extreme. However I am sure you know this and had a response ready and I think I can guess it..., but again that is a silly comparison to make.

    My opinion only.


    IPUK
    nobody blames freedom fighters for making war against the govt. for stealing their land and destroying their way of life..but when they start harassing innocent
    citizens it becomes terrorism....scalping...burning people alive...peeling their skin off their bodies..are all atrocities against mankind and any sympathy people felt for the apache goes out the window

  8. #23
    it
    Sep 2016
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    Not so IPUK, the apache minority was involved in a terrorist campaign as our present Taliban are.. They both have the major part of treir population living peacefully. Yep, the OIRISH were crazy also. and so it has been since Cain and Able.

    Incidentally a friend of mine "Pat" was a corriur forthe IRA, until he was shot in the foot, then he decided it wasn't any more fun, so he went to America, where the British intelligence made sure that he could only recieve janitorial positions, He is now quite old but has survived the IRA wars with many a story to tell of the Black and Tans. The Britsh \intellience still monitor him

    The Apache minority, the terrorists of their day, were basically the ones that did not want to work so they enbarked upon a campaign of robbery and terrorism upon their neighbors . He almost was in band of 40 or less, except for his excursions into Mexico,

    Joe was right, they would raid in Arizona, then retreat into the vastness of the the mexican sierras where horses were vrtually useless except to follow established trais Those are ROUGH, DEEP mountains why the Barranca de Cobre, del Rio Mayo are considerede an the worlds deepest and roughest. I know them since I explored them on mule and afoot. Some times not meeting another traveler in a week or two

    lIt has only been recentally that they opened a road across rhe sierra. from Hermosillo -- Chihuahua.

    Here is a typical cross section of that country, how ' n 'ell do you corner a handfull of Apache in this type of country.
    A country almosts as large as Blighty Land.

    Name:  Falls in Tayopa cpuntry©.jpg
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    Name:  joseph curry tayopa gold of the sun. 2.jpg
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    Last edited by Real of Tayopa; Oct 21, 2016 at 02:20 PM.
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  9. #24

    Mar 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    nobody blames freedom fighters for making war against the govt. for stealing their land and destroying their way of life..but when they start harassing innocent
    citizens it becomes terrorism....scalping...burning people alive...peeling their skin off their bodies..are all atrocities against mankind and any sympathy people felt for the apache goes out the window
    Like I've said, hideous atrocities on both sides...

    It might sound controversial, but the Apache felt more sinned against than being the sinners...


    IPUK

  10. #25
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interested Party in UK View Post
    Like I've said, hideous atrocities on both sides...

    It might sound controversial, but the Apache felt more sinned against than being the sinners...


    IPUK
    you talk like you know how the indians felt?...are you part indian?

  11. #26

    Mar 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real of Tayopa View Post
    Not so IPUK, the apache minority was involved in a terrorist campaign as our present Taliban are.. They both have the major part of treir population living peacefully. Yep, the OIRISH were crazy also. and so it has been since Cain and Able.

    Incidentally a friend of mine "Pat" was a corriur forthe IRA, until he was shot in the foot, then he decided it wasn't any more fun, so he went to America, where the British intelligence made sure that he could only recieve janitorial positions, He is now quite old but has survived the IRA wars with many a story to tell of the Black and Tans. The Britsh \intellience still monitor him

    The Apache minority, the terrorists of their day, were basically the ones that did not want to work so they enbarked upon a campaign of robbery and terrorism upon their neighbors . He almost was in band of 40 or less, except for his excursions into Mexico,

    Joe was right, they would raid in Arizona, then retreat into the vastness of the the mexican sierras where horses were vrtually useless except to follow established trais Those are ROUGH, DEEP mountains why the Barranca de Cobre, del Rio Mayo are considerede an the worlds deepest and roughest. I know them since I explored them on mule and afoot. Some times not meeting another traveler in a week or two

    lIt has only been recentally that they opened a road across rhe sierra. from Hermosillo -- Chihuahua.

    Here is a typical cross section of that country, how ' n 'ell do you corner a handfull of Apache in this type of country.
    A country almosts as large as Blighty Land.

    Name:  Falls in Tayopa cpuntry©.jpg
Views: 249
Size:  22.2 KB

    Name:  joseph curry tayopa gold of the sun. 2.jpg
Views: 242
Size:  16.3 KB
    Don,

    The bands were in the hundreds during their 'glory' days, not 40 or less as you suggest. They only started using the Sierra Madres as their main base out of necessity in the 1880s when it was too hot for them on the other side of the border. But they still crossed it at will. Cochise's warriors were nearly always to be found in Arizona. Victorio's, Loco's and Nana's band were mainly in New Mexico.

    You've posted that picture before and I have a decent enough idea of what the Madres are like.

    How do you explain, that when Cochise made his peace with General Howard, for a period of four years until his death and the closure of the Chiricahua reservation, those years were the most peaceful and productive for both sides and this is from army officers and civil authorities...?

    When the Chihenne were allowed to settle at Ojo Caliente in New Mexico, all could come and go freely in that part of the country without fear...?

    The rough mountains you mention, well the Chiricahua were the masters of all they purveyed there..., not my words but those of historians, contemporary travellers and those sent to try and subdue them...

    Maybe if you opened up what you claim is Tayopa, then you'd have the last laugh on the 'terrorists', as you'd get to claim all that precious metal that is supposedly stored there and the Apache tried to conceal from whitey and the hombres....


    IPUK

  12. #27

    Mar 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    you talk like you know how the indians felt?...are you part indian?

    Would that really make a difference for you....?

    Do books, history, study, evidence, research and knowledge count for anything...?




    IPUK

  13. #28
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interested Party in UK View Post
    Would that really make a difference for you....?

    Do books, history, study, evidence, research and knowledge count for anything...?




    IPUK
    yes it does make a difference..i am part indian and have never heard any of my relatives carrying on about things that happened 130 years ago...books are fine if you are bored and want something to do..but if you want to know what really happened read some of the diaries of people crossing arizona in the 1800's

  14. #29

    Mar 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    yes it does make a difference..i am part indian and have never heard any of my relatives carrying on about things that happened 130 years ago...books are fine if you are bored and want something to do..but if you want to know what really happened read some of the diaries of people crossing arizona in the 1800's
    So because you are "part" Indian and your relatives never "carry-on" about local history that makes it ok for you?

    "Books are for the bored"?

    Erm....ok....

    Believe it or not, if you'd read my earlier posts properly, you'd have noticed that I have mentioned, on several occasions, that I have studied contemporary records.


    But thank you for the advice anyway.


    IPUK

  15. #30
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interested Party in UK View Post
    So because you are "part" Indian and your relatives never "carry-on" about local history that makes it ok for you?

    "Books are for the bored"?

    Erm....ok....

    Believe it or not, if you'd read my earlier posts properly, you'd have noticed that I have mentioned, on several occasions, that I have studied contemporary records.


    But thank you for the advice anyway.


    IPUK
    what makes what ok?....i guess it was ok for your country to enslave us and tax us to death?..no wonder we ran you guys out of here...lol

 

 
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