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Thread: The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

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  1. #631
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Roy,

    You wrote: "those ancient humans were not hunting anything larger than deer!"

    I believe you are mistaken here, as there are many sites where mammoth, bear and horse, together with projectile points have been found together that are possibly older than 11,500 B.P. Those sites include, but are not limited to, Trail Creek Caves, Fairbanks Muck Deposits, Blue Fish Caves, Varsity Estates/Bowmont Park, which are all found before you get into the lower states.

    There is a possible relation between Beringia and North American lithics. "A third site, Uptar, is undated but contains a fluted projectile point considered by some researchers to be a possible precursor to Clovis technology in North America."

    The above information is from "Bones Boats & Bison" by James Dixon.

    I have spent most of the previous week in bed, so that may have clouded my reasoning here. I used to have a good idea which of my books to open for semi-forgotten information, but that has become much more difficult these days.

    Take care,

    Joe
    Well I see that we have to disagree on several points here, and there MAY be some misunderstanding as well.

    Do you agree that the OLDEST human remains, would precede any humans that followed later, into America?

    If so, then we are left with that set of human remains, found with evidence of what was the food in use at the time, and the largest game animals found were only deer. LATER humans certainly could have hunted mammoths, mastodons, camels and horses. That would not make them the 'first Americans' however, as they arrived later.

    Examples of what I am referring to:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Verde
    https://anthropology.net/2008/05/08/...e-verde-chile/

    Extract from the second article:
    Finding seaweed from site like Monte Verde indicates that 14,000 years ago people relied on some sea life, and kept relatively close to the shore even though they established a rather permanent settlement inland.
    From my personal experience with hiking the Santa Cruz mountains as well as working at an archaeological site in the Monterey Bay, I too have seen evidence that prehistoric peoples were relying heavily on sea life for food. Often, Iíve found mussel shells deep within the forest. I have also seen how people were regularly hunting fur seals from a rookery.
    No evidence that these MOST ANCIENT Americas were hunting any of the mega fauna (large game like mammoths, for those unfamiliar with the term) but WERE heavily reliant on the sea for food including fur seals. This would dovetail very well with the SEA route to colonize the Americas, and the fact that no trace of any hunting of the mega fauna does not support that these FIRST Americans were simply "following the herds" for they did not utilize them. No doubt that later peoples did hunt the big animals, most of the known Clovis sites are mammoth kills. I did not intend to mean that NONE of the ancient peoples ever hunted the mega fauna, obviously some did, yet the earliest people did not. And worse, in so far as the Bering land bridge theory goes, these people at Monte Verde, were found very far from that land bridge.

    If you know of any of the sites you mentioned that date to earlier than the Monte Verde site in SOUTHERN CHILE, over 8000 miles from the Bering land bridge and yet the site of the oldest known human remains, I would appreciate if you could point me to them. I am aware of an even more controversial site which may be as old as 50,000 years
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1118104010.htm

    Side point but I do not expect you to recall every detail nor where you found some info, and hope for the same consideration in return.

    Please do continue;
    Oroblanco

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  2. #632
    it
    Sep 2016
    Mexico
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    Life Joe, just be glad that you're still here to badger that Oro guy, not so spry myself,,insomnia more or less for the last week, any ideas ? A day and a night pretty darn fast for ice
    melting,, hmpth
    Oroblanco likes this.

  3. #633
    it
    Sep 2016
    Mexico
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Life Joe, just be glad that you're still here to badger that Oro guy, not so spry myself,,insomnia more or less for the last week, any ideas ? A day and a night pretty darn fast for ice
    melting,, hmph
    Oroblanco and Bill Riley like this.

  4. #634
    us
    Jan 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Well I see that we have to disagree on several points here, and there MAY be some misunderstanding as well.

    Do you agree that the OLDEST human remains, would precede any humans that followed later, into America?

    If so, then we are left with that set of human remains, found with evidence of what was the food in use at the time, and the largest game animals found were only deer. LATER humans certainly could have hunted mammoths, mastodons, camels and horses. That would not make them the 'first Americans' however, as they arrived later.

    Examples of what I am referring to:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Verde
    https://anthropology.net/2008/05/08/...e-verde-chile/

    Extract from the second article:


    No evidence that these MOST ANCIENT Americas were hunting any of the mega fauna (large game like mammoths, for those unfamiliar with the term) but WERE heavily reliant on the sea for food including fur seals. This would dovetail very well with the SEA route to colonize the Americas, and the fact that no trace of any hunting of the mega fauna does not support that these FIRST Americans were simply "following the herds" for they did not utilize them. No doubt that later peoples did hunt the big animals, most of the known Clovis sites are mammoth kills. I did not intend to mean that NONE of the ancient peoples ever hunted the mega fauna, obviously some did, yet the earliest people did not. And worse, in so far as the Bering land bridge theory goes, these people at Monte Verde, were found very far from that land bridge.

    If you know of any of the sites you mentioned that date to earlier than the Monte Verde site in SOUTHERN CHILE, over 8000 miles from the Bering land bridge and yet the site of the oldest known human remains, I would appreciate if you could point me to them. I am aware of an even more controversial site which may be as old as 50,000 years
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1118104010.htm

    Side point but I do not expect you to recall every detail nor where you found some info, and hope for the same consideration in return.

    Please do continue;
    Oroblanco

    Here's a old site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadowcroft_Rockshelter

  5. #635
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by dog, the treasure hunter View Post
    Do you know what these people were eating? Thanks in advance,

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  6. #636

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Roy,

    According to the article, "Meadowcroft Rockshelter has yielded the largest collection of flora and fauna materials ever recovered from a location in eastern North America.[16] The arid environment provided the necessary and rare conditions that permitted excellent botanical preservation. In total, animal remains representing 149 species were excavated. Evidence shows that people gathered smaller game animals as well as plants, such as corn, squash, fruits, nuts and seeds."

    Just prior to this statement, we have this:

    "Radiocarbon dating of the site indicated occupancy beginning 16,000 years ago and possibly as early as 19,000 years ago. The dates are still controversial. A recent survey carried out by the Society for American Archaeology reported support from 38% of archaeologists, with 20% rejecting the early dates.[11] Criticism of these early radiocarbon dates has focused on the potential for contamination by ancient carbon from coal-bearing strata in the watershed.[12] The samples, tested by an independent third party geomorphologist, concluded that the samples showed no evidence of groundwater activity. Tests performed via accelerator mass spectrometry also support the earlier dates.[13] If authentic, these dates would indicate that Meadowcroft was used in the pre-Clovis era and, as such, provides evidence for very early human habitation of the Americas.[14][15] Meadowcroft Rockshelter may be the oldest known site of human habitation in North America, providing a unique glimpse into the lives of prehistoric hunters and gatherers. Paleoindian, Archaic, and Woodland remains have all been found at the site."

    Because no mammoth remains have been found, do you assume there were no mammoth at the earliest possible dates for the Meadowcroft people?

    Take care,

    Joe
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  7. #637
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Roy,

    According to the article, "Meadowcroft Rockshelter has yielded the largest collection of flora and fauna materials ever recovered from a location in eastern North America.[16] The arid environment provided the necessary and rare conditions that permitted excellent botanical preservation. In total, animal remains representing 149 species were excavated. Evidence shows that people gathered smaller game animals as well as plants, such as corn, squash, fruits, nuts and seeds."

    Just prior to this statement, we have this:

    "Radiocarbon dating of the site indicated occupancy beginning 16,000 years ago and possibly as early as 19,000 years ago. The dates are still controversial. A recent survey carried out by the Society for American Archaeology reported support from 38% of archaeologists, with 20% rejecting the early dates.[11] Criticism of these early radiocarbon dates has focused on the potential for contamination by ancient carbon from coal-bearing strata in the watershed.[12] The samples, tested by an independent third party geomorphologist, concluded that the samples showed no evidence of groundwater activity. Tests performed via accelerator mass spectrometry also support the earlier dates.[13] If authentic, these dates would indicate that Meadowcroft was used in the pre-Clovis era and, as such, provides evidence for very early human habitation of the Americas.[14][15] Meadowcroft Rockshelter may be the oldest known site of human habitation in North America, providing a unique glimpse into the lives of prehistoric hunters and gatherers. Paleoindian, Archaic, and Woodland remains have all been found at the site."

    Because no mammoth remains have been found, do you assume there were no mammoth at the earliest possible dates for the Meadowcroft people?

    Take care,

    Joe
    No, however there is no evidence suggesting that they WERE hunting and consuming mammoths, since nothing was found.

    Most mammoth hunters butchered the kill at the site where it was killed, only smaller joints, teeth etc ended up at home shelters. Due to the controversy over the date(s) of Meadowcroft, I did not point to it as the earliest known site of human occupation in the Americas. That no evidence of mega fauna being utilized, certainly would not then support that the first Americans were simply following migrating herds of mega fauna. The evidence we have points to hunter-gatherers, whom were largely dependent on the sea for a good portion of their food supply, which would support the sea route for colonization.


    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  8. #638
    Charter Member
    us
    Dec 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real of Tayopa View Post
    Life Joe, just be glad that you're still here to badger that Oro guy, not so spry myself,,insomnia more or less for the last week, any ideas ? A day and a night pretty darn fast for ice
    melting,, hmph
    Take two Viagra before bedtime and wake your wife in the morning....that'll cure it!

    If your not married then take two estrogen tabs.

    You'll sleep like a girly Man you old Orish SOB!
    Real of Tayopa likes this.

  9. #639
    it
    Sep 2016
    Mexico
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    Err Bill. what's' the viagra for ? My wife gets up in the morning anyway , why wake her up earlier Estrogen ?? I don need no boobs just sleep. SOB son of Bill Balley? nah of the Oirish Curry's singing the Blues

    I have already promised Oro to stop watching the kiddie porn by 8 pm

    Good one BILL
    Last edited by Real of Tayopa; Feb 01, 2017 at 07:46 PM.
    Oroblanco and Bill Riley like this.

  10. #640

    Dec 2015
    145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real of Tayopa View Post
    Err Bill. what's' the viagra for ? My wife gets up in the morning anyway , why wake her up earlier Estrogen ?? I don need no boobs just sleep. SOB son of Bill Balley? nah of the Oirish Curry's singing the Blues

    I have already promised Oro to stop watching the kiddie porn by 8 pm

    Good one BILL
    NVG
    Last edited by Gambrinus; Feb 02, 2017 at 01:02 AM.
    Real of Tayopa likes this.

  11. #641
    it
    Sep 2016
    Mexico
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    Hello Gambrinus, coffee ??I agree with you 'not very good', but that cotton picking Bill didn't leave me much leeway.
    I'll bide my time and get him good. We are all just a goodnatured campfire group. even if in a different section














    +
    Bill Riley and Oroblanco like this.

  12. #642
    Charter Member
    us
    Dec 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real of Tayopa View Post
    Err Bill. what's' the viagra for ? My wife gets up in the morning anyway , why wake her up earlier Estrogen ?? I don need no boobs just sleep. SOB son of Bill Balley? nah of the Oirish Curry's singing the Blues

    I have already promised Oro to stop watching the kiddie porn by 8 pm

    Good one BILL
    Viagra is for insomnia it keeps the blanket from scratching your legs like a tent so you can sleep like a baby walrus!
    Kiddie Porn? I take it back your pretty sick, make an appointment with a hangman!

    Maybe you do need some boobs...just stay away from those kiddie play grounds before 8...ain't no boobs there...and don't play with anyone under 60 years young!

    Take two java's and call your shrink in the morning!

    And please, move away from any school yards immediately....




    Best,
    Bill
    markmar likes this.

  13. #643
    it
    Sep 2016
    Mexico
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    followedyer experienced orders but no good, not evev cutting out the kidie porn helped


    is I ever tell you about thn Bill Riley err Baily, incident ? Blushing

  14. #644
    no
    Mar 2010
    Republic of Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real of Tayopa View Post
    followedyer experienced orders but no good, not evev cutting out the kidie porn helped


    is I ever tell you about thn Bill Riley err Baily, incident ? Blushing
    do tell - I'm all ears ...
    Oroblanco and Bill Riley like this.
    A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine

  15. #645
    it
    Sep 2016
    Mexico
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    They were, in act our surveyer of Tayopa was a full blooded Apache his mother remembered some of the deprivatios.
    markmar likes this.

 

 
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