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  1. #16

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Homar,

    Have to agree with your post. I have never believed the original story of the circumstances surrounding Adolph Ruth's death. Believe I've written that many times over the years.

    Matthew's story has been floated by him a number of times. I have never seen a verifiable source for his tale. Until that happens, I have serious doubts, but that and five bucks may get me an average cup of coffee. Maybe he will supply sources when his book is published.

    My own belief is that Ruth never made it farther than the saddle that separates West Boulder and Little Boulder Canyons. I was told, and believe, that this was the view of Weaver's Needle that Ruth was looking for:

    The marker is for a claim at that spot. Believe Sims Ely made a slip as to where Ruth was really found in his book.......

    Good luck,

    Joe
    I don't believe it's necessary for Matthew to reveal his sources for his statement to be verified. We have more than enough to look at in terms of corroboration, or to cross-reference.

    For example, in Gassler's manuscript (1983), he states that Barkley told him that he had moved the body from Peter's Mesa. What reason would Gassler have had to make this up?

    When you mention that you think Ely let slip the real location, did you mean what he wrote on page 9:

    Weaver's Needle stands amid three canyons- namely, West Boulder on the west, East Boulder in the middle, and Needle Canyon on the east. The three converge some two miles northwest of the peak, and at that point there is a mile-long ridge covered with dense brush.... [o]n this brushy ridge, the final scenes in the life of Adolph Ruth were enacted
    By stating that Ruth never made it past the saddle between WB and LBC, are you implying that area is where Ruth's body was found?

  2. #17

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Dave

    I believe every Ruth's map without his notes would been worthless . The notes were with Ruth's body and the rest info in his brain . The Coroner had two months to realize if the skull was shot .
    And , if he was not sure , I believe he would asked from the researchers when they would find the body , to leave it intact and to call him , to see the orientation of the body and in regards with that , to search for skull pieces in the direction of the shot or around .
    So , IMO no thoughts to move the body .

    Marius,

    Ruth was believed to have four maps- three of which ended up with Glen Magill. The fourth map is missing and seems to have been the final step, so to speak- a locator as Gene Reynolds (Borrego 13) would call it. This map reportedly had a laurel grove as one of the landmarks.

    I don't remember exactly, but I think the three maps consisted of a topo (florence grid?), the rice paper map, and the leather profile map courtesy of Wayne (Zentull) from the other site which you will recognize:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As far as notes, Gene Reynolds also claims that somewhere out in Kansas he had seen a self-published book simply titled "PERALTA" which had a lot of information in it. He writes:

    30 years ago while searching through the home of Mrs. Ruth (her real name is Stella Hawkins) ( I left her real name out of the book because she was alive at the time) in Washington, D.C. , She told me there was nothing in the basement but I asked her if I could look anyway.? I found a Bookcase and a trunk there. There was nothing in the trunk. The bookcase contained a book and a few papers and that is all. I nearly left the book being thorough I picked it up and noticed that on the cover of it was written only one word - P E R A L T A. As I studied it I realized it was old and must have been used by Adolph in his research along with the maps he had. I turned many pages and only read a few. It had a black and white picture in it (that was of poor quality) which had a man standing in the front - pointing behind him to the wall of a mine and pointing out a wide vein of which was spoken about as being Rose Quartz.

    I don't care to write a book here - my point is - The book still exists. It is in the hands of 2 people that no one as yet has found. The reason I know they have it is because at one time I had the phone number to reach them and I told them about the book and they promised to me they would get it. They are a part of the family. Had I known the true value of the book at that time I may not have been so honest. The book not only talks about the Peralta or Dutchman mine - but also has a picture of it ! It is no wonder Adolph thought he could find the mine - I also found a maps of sorts there
    Last edited by deducer; May 29, 2017 at 07:07 PM.

  3. #18

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,754
    5340 times
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    I don't believe it's necessary for Matthew to reveal his sources for his statement to be verified. We have more than enough to look at in terms of corroboration, or to cross-reference.

    For example, in Gassler's manuscript (1983), he states that Barkley told him that he had moved the body from Peter's Mesa. What reason would Gassler have had to make this up?

    When you mention that you think Ely let slip the real location, did you mean what he wrote on page 9:



    By stating that Ruth never made it past the saddle between WB and LBC, are you implying that area is where Ruth's body was found?
    deducer,

    Thank you for your reply and question.

    Towards the bottom of page 8, Ely writes this:

    "In the thick brush overlooking West Boulder Canyon, about one hundred feet above the canyon floor, one of the dogs came upon a skull-to which particles of flesh still adhered."

    We have been assured that a number of important (to the family) details were changed or left out of Ely's book. The details of the above statement may be something that slipped by unnoticed. The fact that it describes an area that Ruth could have reached on foot, the fact that the view of Weaver's Needle that I have posted, and the fact that a claim exists in the saddle at that point, do give some credence to the theory. Ruth was not unfamiliar with the Superstitions. He chose to camp at Willow Spring, despite the fact that water was available closer to where his skull was said to be found. The instructions found on Ruth could easily lead one into Willow Spring.

    If you want to quote Gene Reynolds, we were friends. I talked him into putting out his book on CD, numbering and signing them. I have #1. It was Gene who asked me for a picture of Weavers Needle taken from the saddle that separates Little Boulder and West Boulder Canyons. He is the person who confirmed that it was the view Ruth was looking for. Gene was the first person, as far as I know, to seek and find Stella (Ruth) Hawkins. Much of his information came from that first, direct, contact.

    As for Matthew, I had a personal relationship with him that went on for a number of years. I believe I know him as well as anyone else and better than many. I also know his true history. Others can accept his stories at face value and feel comfortable with that. I will need to see better sources than I might need from others. That's not saying that the story he has posted here is not true. I believe it might very well be, and truly hope it is.

    As for your final question, I personally believe that is where Ruth's body was actually found. There is a running spring below the west side of the saddle, in a north/south running ravine.

    Good post and good questions.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    Last edited by cactusjumper; May 30, 2017 at 10:59 AM.
    Real of Tayopa and Loke like this.
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  4. #19
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    deducer

    Thank you for your input . I was not aware of what maps had Ruth with him in his last days . The only I knew he had , were the Perfil map and the Bicknell's route and clues from a journal .
    What I wrote about Ruth death in this thread , was only my opinion based in my logic . I had not intend to contradict or doubt what anybody write here .
    Now about maps , from what I know about . The maps are worthless if you don't know for what region were made . The treasure maps were not made to show the real relief or a region as is in the field , and are very complicated and difficult to recognize .
    Is very difficult to recognize the scale which had used the map maker or what symbols had used for specific landmarks . Sometimes even you believe how you have recognized the region in the map , the map maker could use for orientation things that you never would believe he could use . Only the map maker knows the region on the map and to guide someone else there , have to give few instructions as are some clues and a route .
    Last edited by markmar; May 30, 2017 at 01:48 PM.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  5. #20

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,754
    5340 times
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    deducer

    Thank you for your input . I was not aware of what maps had Ruth with him in his last days . The only I knew he had , were the Perfil map and the Bicknell's route and clues from a journal .
    What I wrote about Ruth death in this thread , was only my opinion based in my logic . I had not intend to contradict or doubt what anybody write here .
    Now about maps , from what I know about . The maps are worthless if you don't know for what region were made . The treasure maps were not made to show the real relief or region as is in the field , and are very complicated and difficult to recognize .
    Is very difficult to recognize the scale which had used the map maker or what symbols had used for specific landmarks . Sometimes even you believe how you have recognized the region in the map , the map maker could use for orientation things that you never would believe he could use . Only the map maker knows the region on the map and to guide someone else there , have to give few instructions as are some clues and a route .
    Marius,

    For someone who has spent long periods of time in the Superstitions, the maps you speak of show familiar places. I have hundreds of pictures of the range, and that does not come close to what I have seen over the years. In addition to many trips on foot and horseback, I have taken a number of helicopter trips which provided a different look at that magnificent terrain.









    Good luck,

    Joe
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  6. #21
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    818
    3449 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    One important thing that stood out while I was going through the various Sheriff's reports was the fact Adolph Ruth had more than one map with him when he came to Arizona.
    The Perfil Map of course became the most widely known and talked about. But he had other maps with him, some that he had acquired from his son Erwin and at least one that he had gotten from Morse and other(s) that no one is certain how he may have acquired them. That is not unusual for a treasure hunter. Many times I have been in the Superstition Mountains and have carried several different maps myself.

    What I came to believe is that Ruth was not just searching with one particular map but was in the mountains to search and try to locate as many as two or three separate locations and each map led to a different area. Morse, Purnell and Keenan seemed to be the vehicle that was going to get him to each of these locations.

    I believe (my personal opinion) he choose to camp at Willow Spring because it had water in the heat of summer, was close to one of the sites he wanted to search and was not far for Purnell and Keenan to come and go with supplies and take him to the different areas he wanted to look at.

    Matthew

  7. #22
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    Maybe Ruth was not sure for a specific region , and he wanted to see different views\angles of Weavers Needle and its surrounding landmarks .
    If so , Peters Mesa proved to be too far from his camp and a fatal hike for a hot summer day .
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  8. #23
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    818
    3449 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Maybe Ruth was not sure for a specific region , and he wanted to see different views\angles of Weavers Needle and its surrounding landmarks .
    If so , Peters Mesa proved to be too far from his camp and a fatal hike for a hot summer day .
    markmar,

    I agree (my opinion) that Adolph Ruth was interested in seeing Weavers Needle from more than just one angle or view.
    Peters Mesa provides one of the most dramatic views of Weavers Needle and is an exact match for the way it appears on at least one very well known map.

    No one can seriously hike the Superstitions in June-July-August. It is just too hot. When I was younger I could go in the Superstitions in those months but could move about only very early in the mornings and as the Sun was setting in the evening. Once the Sun was overhead you had to find shade and just rest up. If you could time your trip in the mountains with the full moon you could travel around, as when the full moon was directly overhead at midnight you could walk around as if it were daylight. Ruth however went into the Superstition Mountains during the dark of the moon.

    I don't believe Ruth under his own power could possibly have hiked from Willow Spring to Peters Mesa or even to where he was eventually found at the NW end of Black Top Mesa.
    He had to have help to have gotten to either one of those places, and by help I mean someone with horses.

    Matthew
    Last edited by Matthew Roberts; May 30, 2017 at 02:10 PM.
    markmar, Azquester, davin and 1 others like this.

  9. #24
    us
    Dec 2008
    2,787
    6422 times
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    deducer

    Thank you for your input . I was not aware of what maps had Ruth with him in his last days . The only I knew he had , were the Perfil map and the Bicknell's route and clues from a journal .
    What I wrote about Ruth death in this thread , was only my opinion based in my logic . I had not intend to contradict or doubt what anybody write here .
    Now about maps , from what I know about . The maps are worthless if you don't know for what region were made . The treasure maps were not made to show the real relief or a region as is in the field , and are very complicated and difficult to recognize .
    Is very difficult to recognize the scale which had used the map maker or what symbols had used for specific landmarks . Sometimes even you believe how you have recognized the region in the map , the map maker could use for orientation things that you never would believe he could use . Only the map maker knows the region on the map and to guide someone else there , have to give few instructions as are some clues and a route .
    marius....i'm with you about maps...they are pretty much only good to the person that made them....when people make maps they change things around so only they can read them

  10. #25
    Charter Member
    us
    Dec 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Maybe Ruth was not sure for a specific region , and he wanted to see different views\angles of Weavers Needle and its surrounding landmarks .
    If so , Peters Mesa proved to be too far from his camp and a fatal hike for a hot summer day .
    I tried hiking in a heat wave in there once...from first water...I did it with a heavy pack full of mainly, water.
    After about a mile in 120 degree heat I turned around. By the time I made it back to my truck I had consumed a third of the water. I took five gallons. In daytime heat in those mountains with a large amount of water you could only go over rough terrain about half of that distance. So unless Ruth traveled by night, left early before sunrise, he only made it a few thousand feet in the heat. That is unless he was taken by horse back. I suppose he may have left early that would give him maybe a mile or two more. Impossible to get back in the daytime unless he had many gallons of water on him. Maps don't provide moisture. You don't make it that far with out water in the summer during the day.

    Nice debate!

  11. #26
    Charter Member
    us
    "WP"

    May 2012
    12,446
    19494 times
    Ruth was vulnerable it seems on his last trip. He would not be going far, or fast if anyone wanted to watch or molest him.
    What was on him ,or in his hand when or before he died we really don't know.....
    If it was gold then interrogation could follow if he was not seen acquiring it. To heck with his maps ( unless one was missing). Though maps can be copied then altered and put back. Had he been robbed of info ,letting him go and allow authorities to get wind of it may not have seemed a good idea.

    Too many people knew where he could be found and what he was doing after being dropped off.. Heck , he was Ruth and well known for seeking knowledge of certain subjects.

    A body found by choice of the some one causing it's untimely death would be found distant from point( s) of interest. That can be agreed on.

    He could have intruded on the wrong party by random chance. No stranger to the game he seemed to be knowledgeable enough to steer clear of imposing on a remote diggin though ,or ask too many personal questions if crossing trails when outback ,or clearing out after a warning shot. ??

    If some one wanted him at their mercy on his last outing ..they had him. No one ,or even a dog on guard/ watch when he closed his eyes to rest.
    Last edited by releventchair; May 30, 2017 at 06:33 PM.

  12. #27

    Dec 2012
    on the rocks - so cal county line
    Gold bug pro / Whites coin master II
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    Bottom line is Ruth had maps but never had any rich gold ore .
    So he was the closest one to locating the fabled mine .
    Great story guys thanks for kicking it around .
    Now that the dirty work is done all's that is left is the digging

  13. #28
    us
    Dec 2008
    2,787
    6422 times
    Quote Originally Posted by H-2 CHARLIE View Post
    Bottom line is Ruth had maps but never had any rich gold ore .
    So he was the closest one to locating the fabled mine .
    Great story guys thanks for kicking it around .
    if he did have any gold on him i'm sure whoever smoked him liberated it from his body

  14. #29

    Jan 2014
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    3540 times
    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    deducer,

    Thank you for your reply and question.

    Towards the bottom of page 8, Ely writes this:

    "In the thick brush overlooking West Boulder Canyon, about one hundred feet above the canyon floor, one of the dogs came upon a skull-to which particles of flesh still adhered."

    We have been assured that a number of important (to the family) details were changed or left out of Ely's book. The details of the above statement may be something that slipped by unnoticed. The fact that it describes an area that Ruth could have reached on foot, the fact that the view of Weaver's Needle that I have posted, and the fact that a claim exists in the saddle at that point, do give some credence to the theory. Ruth was not unfamiliar with the Superstitions. He chose to camp at Willow Spring, despite the fact that water was available closer to where his skull was said to be found. The instructions found on Ruth could easily lead one into Willow Spring.

    If you want to quote Gene Reynolds, we were friends. I talked him into putting out his book on CD, numbering and signing them. I have #1. It was Gene who asked me for a picture of Weavers Needle taken from the saddle that separates Little Boulder and West Boulder Canyons. He is the person who confirmed that it was the view Ruth was looking for. Gene was the first person, as far as I know, to seek and find Stella (Ruth) Hawkins. Much of his information came from that first, direct, contact.

    As for Matthew, I had a personal relationship with him that went on for a number of years. I believe I know him as well as anyone else and better than many. I also know his true history. Others can accept his stories at face value and feel comfortable with that. I will need to see better sources than I might need from others. That's not saying that the story he has posted here is not true. I believe it might very well be, and truly hope it is.

    As for your final question, I personally believe that is where Ruth's body was actually found. There is a running spring below the west side of the saddle, in a north/south running ravine.

    Good post and good questions.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    I do understand where you are coming from when you ask for sources. I'd pretty much be the same, but what I've come to realize is that this isn't a scholar website or field, and this field that we are dealing with is by it's very nature always going to be full of deception, misleading or withheld information. I think it's up to each of us to develop the ability to separate the wheat from the chaff, in our own ways, and using our methods.

    Matthew may not be able to reveal his sources- you have a number of sources you can't reveal because you have been asked not to, and I have plenty of my own- there is much information I can't release because I have been asked to keep them confidential.

    So I imagine it's tricky and probably very frustrating at times, but that's the nature of TH. But I think that when you acquire enough information, you start to detect patterns and see corroborations from separate sources, and that's where you can develop a feel or an instinct for what happened and where.

    And my sense is that Barkley/Adams were not straightforward about what really happened and that they participated in some sort of coverup.

    For example, Adams writes about finding the body and in no more than two days was off looking for what the maps led to. What ethical sheriff would do this? Why wasn't he busy investigating who/where the murderer was?

    Unless he already knew who did it?

    I wonder what Frank thinks of this, considering his background. You out there Frank? What is your take on this?

  15. #30

    Jan 2014
    1,901
    3540 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    One important thing that stood out while I was going through the various Sheriff's reports was the fact Adolph Ruth had more than one map with him when he came to Arizona.
    The Perfil Map of course became the most widely known and talked about. But he had other maps with him, some that he had acquired from his son Erwin and at least one that he had gotten from Morse and other(s) that no one is certain how he may have acquired them. That is not unusual for a treasure hunter. Many times I have been in the Superstition Mountains and have carried several different maps myself.

    What I came to believe is that Ruth was not just searching with one particular map but was in the mountains to search and try to locate as many as two or three separate locations and each map led to a different area. Morse, Purnell and Keenan seemed to be the vehicle that was going to get him to each of these locations.

    I believe (my personal opinion) he choose to camp at Willow Spring because it had water in the heat of summer, was close to one of the sites he wanted to search and was not far for Purnell and Keenan to come and go with supplies and take him to the different areas he wanted to look at.

    Matthew
    Gene Reynolds also wrote:

    The fact is, the 1931 trip, which was [Ruth's] last, was certainly not his first trip into the Superstitions. I have in my possession, information (copied from Ruth's own notes) that describes an earlier trip he made into the superstitions in which he spent 3 days headquartered at the Tortilla Ranch. His first day he spent exploring the area we know today as the Miller Mines area but George Miller and Robert Aiton were already established there and he presumed that if there had been anything of value to be found there, they had already found it. His second day was spent exploring the "Indian Spring Canyon" area and the third day he followed what we know today as Peter's Trail around the Eastern corner of Tortilla Mountain to a saddle that offered him a spectacular view overlooking Weaver’s Needle & Peter's Mesa. I do not have any documentation for it, but I was told that he also made at least one other exploratory trip into the Superstitions by way of the old Milk Ranch.

    Ruth was very well prepared for the 1931 trip. He had studied the mountains from several different entry points and knew exactly what he would need in the way of supplies for the length of time he intended to stay. He planned to make his camp near a source of water and had a thermos for carrying water on trail as he ventured out from his camp.

 

 
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