Question about Peralta Stones...

[Springfield]

With a couple of modern tools (RotoZip, Dremel, etc.), a few books on TH lore, some topo maps, a knowledge of Colonial Spanish and some field time setting up fake monuments, etc., a smart guy with a wicked sense of humor could create similar or better fakes than these and send the gomers into the hills for years chasing phantoms. If he were truly unscrupulous, he could sell them to an even more gullible and greedy gomer with lots of money. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Gollum raises an interesting point though - by trying to figure out these fakes, a rookie might gain substantial experience in orienteering, historical research methods, and how to survive on foot in rough country. This might prepare him for a real search if the opportunity ever fell into his lap later.

 

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[gollum]

Hey Springfield,

I don't think anybody alive today (most likely) can say with 100% certainty that the stones are fakes (or authentic for that matter). Actually, I can think of one person who may be in a position to speak in absolutes about the Stone Maps. That man is Tom Kollenborn. I understand that what his stated views on the Stone Maps are, changes depending on who he is talking to. I haven't met or spoken with anybody who knows him that can say for 100% exactly what he believes.

When talking about the Stone Maps, one should be using the words "I believe" "I think" "in my opinion", etc. Even Azmula, who probably has done more in depth research on the Stone Maps than any human, doesn't use absolutes when referring to his beliefs (and he thinks them to be authentic).

See, there is NOTHING absolute about the Stone Maps. That includes where they were "found" alongside the highway between Florence Junction and Apache Junction. Azmula makes a great case for them having been stolen from the Arizpe Mission at the end of the nineteenth century, and been handed down in the Tumlinson Family from father "Peg Leg" Tumlinson to son Travis Tumlinson.

I won't start all the excruciating details again, for anybody who wishes to know more of all the arguments regarding the Stone Maps, please read the long thread in the Lost Dutchman Section.

Once again, please don't speak in absolutes. It doesn't make you look good. You are free to "believe" anything you wish, and based on which research evidence you chose to accept or reject, you can base "your beliefs", but unless you have absolute proof, you can't make absolute claims.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Yes, I factored in the possibility that the person carving the stones may have been illiterate, or semi-illirate, however that does not dispell the fact that the Spanish which is carved on the stones is modern day Spanglish (a mixture of Spanish and English). 150 years ago Spanglish did not exist as most people living on either side of the Mexican/U.S. border spoke either English, Spanish or both and blending the 2 languages together was unheard of. This is a phenomenom which started sometime in the late 1920s and has continued right up to today.

The words "YO PASTO" are totally incorrect and someone obviously looked up the word GRAZE in a Spanish/English dictionary before carving the sentence into the stone. Again, the word "YO" inscribed over and over is a dead giveaway that the person carving the stone was not a native Spanish speaker. 150 years ago it was unheard of to use the word "YO", even if the person was illiterate. 150 years ago the word "YO" was considered to be extremely rude, much more so than it is today.

I am NOT stating that the LDM doesn't exist, merely that the Peralta Stones were not carved 150 or more years ago, rather they were carved sometime after the late 1920s. The fact that the person who *found* the stones embarked on a lifelong search for the LDM does NOT lend an ounce of authenticity to the Perlata Stones themselves. He could have been legitimately searching for the LDM, as have 1000s of others, and carved the stones as a gag or to throw everyone off the trail. Or, he may have legitimately found them too. None of these possibilities adds a single gram of credence to the authenticity of the Peralta Stones.

Look at the *Priest* stone for just moment. Now, ask yourself this: "How would anyone know what sort of garb a priest wore back in the late 1500s, especially someone with an extremely limited education, as all of the grammatical errors suggests?" It just doesn't wash. The person who carved the stones wouldn't know. Besides, the style of dress is incorrect in itself. THis leads me to believe that the *priest* in the carving is not a priest at all, rather it's a witch. If the carving is in fact a witch, then this in itself states the stone is a fake, as witches were unknown in Spain or Mexico until very modern times. Witches came from imaginations of English writers who brought these mythological beings with them to the USA. Over time they came to represent the principal figures of Halloween, again, another British tradition which found it's way to US shores via immagrants. Until 20 years ago, a person would be very hard pressed to find even a Jack O' Lantern in Mexico, that is how little known this particular US tradtion is.

Again, all of the factual evidence on hand leads me to believe that the stones are fake, for whatever reason. In all honesty I wish they weren't fake and that they in fact could lead a dedicated LDM searcher to the mouth of the famous mine, however I don't feel that this will happen using the Peralta Stones as a guide.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

Mike: I'm not trying to 'look good' or make points with dedicated Peralta Stones afficionados. I'm trying to encourage newcomers to the field of treasure hunting to be discriminating about the information they choose to base their searching on. There is a big difference between a hobbiest who only needs any excuse to explore new terrain looking for 'treasure' and a serious hunter who has reason to believe that his information will give him a true chance for recovery. Unfortunately, nearly all of the TH information available, including the Peralta Stones, is in the public domain. This fact alone dooms the searcher because there is no reason, no matter how convincing the presentation, to believe that these published stories, articles, maps, legends, rumors, etc. are authentic. Is there a truth underlying this stuff? 'Yes', in many cases, but 'no' in most cases. The legends that are based on truth are so contaminated with disinformation as to be practically worthless if you have your sights set on recovery.

The newbie needs to use his head - why would authentic information purported to lead to great riches, be available to him? If he realizes that the legend is to be used as a fun expedition into terra obscura and an interesting window into history, then he won't be discouraged or disappointed that he will not find his pot of gold. All of us have realized this option and I imagine most of the viewers of this forum are more or less in this catagory. The problems arise when people go overboard with this stuff and actually believe they are going to locate one of these treasures and compromise their lifestyles and obligations as a result. Are there real hidden treasures to be found? Yes, and the information that will aid the searcher is propriatory. You don't find the genuine information - the real thing finds you. It's acceptable to become obsessed if you have priviledged information, I guess, but not if your info is available to everyone.

As far as the Peralta Stones are concerned - believe what you will. As I mentioned above, playing with this puzzle may be fun and lead to interesting things, but there is no reason to believe, other than that which appears in books, articles, theories and forum postings, that these carvings are authentic. That said, is there something of great value hidden somewhere in the Superstition Mountains vicinity? Yes, I believe there is. Is it 'lost', waiting for some clever guy to find it? No, it's well-hidden, monitored and still in the possession of it's owners. All this is my opinion only, and of course, as you've pointed out before, I could be wrong.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Gollum wrote:

Why would someone forge the Stone Maps? The only reason would be to use them to make money.

I disagree with this idea, at least in part; for instance one good reason to create a fraud is for the sheer fun of knowing that you will fool people into making fools of themselves, this happens ALL too often! Then too, a reason for a person to make up such fake stone maps may well be quite indirect - as in to promote "...the study, preservation and public presentation of the history, legends and lore -- plus the cultures and grandiose scenery -- of Arizona and the Southwest. " (Sound familiar? Hmm? ) In other words to attract more visitors and attention to the region, thus increasing tourism, realty prices etc. Just take one look at the Superstitions from the southwest and you can SEE the indirect results, a vast sprawl of spreading suburbia now crowding right up to the very edges of the Superstitions! Don't make the mistake of thinking that the only possible reason for someone to make up fakes is to "make money" from them, when there are a vast number of possible reasons, including just plain mean-ness! Don't you know someone who has played a mean trick on someone else, just for the fun of being mean?

Mi amigo Mike (Gollum) has pointed out that those who possessed the Peralta stones did not attempt to make money from them, and this is slightly incorrect - remember MOEL and the investigation into their activities? While not "convictions" this is at least more questionable activity. Then too, the fact that someone used the stone maps to search for treasure does not prove the stone maps to be authentic, only that the possessor believed them to be authentic - they could easily have been victims of fraud. Remember the first "documented" owner of the stones was not a treasure hunter but a police officer - yes police do look at evidence and there are similarities, but treasure hunting is a different activity from hunting down criminals. This line of reasoning does help to prove the innocence of those who used the stones to hunt treasures, but does not prove their authenticity by one iota.

Lamar wrote:

the Spanish which is carved on the stones is modern day Spanglish (a mixture of Spanish and English). 150 years ago Spanglish did not exist

Lamar has been examining the stones in the most basic (and only useful method, considering the fact that the stones had been heavily cleaned before any experts got a look at them) method, that is to compare the writing style and linguistic evidence to known, genuine examples of Mexican/Spanish - and here those stone maps fail miserably! I have posted links to genuine examples in other threads, but for some reason people just don't want to compare the Peralta stones to real, genuine Mexican and Spanish inscriptions - I can only guess as to why this is. Is it because the Peralta stones look very different from real Mexican/Spanish ancient inscriptions, or is it almost a case of blind faith? We treasure hunters are very much the optimists, and have a tendency to accept evidence that supports stories of lost treasures even when such evidence is of highly questionable nature. It is good to keep a skeptical mind when ever examining any kind of treasure map(s) - for there are so many treasure maps, and so many of them are simply frauds.

Springfield wrote:

The newbie needs to use his head

Amen brother! This is an important fact, to keep our pants on when we start into any study of a lost treasure, it is SO easy and SO tempting to be seduced into believing in treasure maps, and be led on the proverbial wild-goose chase! We also often forget that we are talking here on a public forum, that has a good many readers who (for one reason or another) do not make any posts, but simply read our banter and for better or worse often take our advice. A fair number are of the 'newbie' category, those who are interested in searching for treasure but lack experience, and these folks are apt to be easily discouraged by being fooled in their efforts. Our avocation of searching for treasures is not the most common 'hobby' and we need as many more members of our fraternity as we can get (there are plenty of folks who would put a stop to our pursuit of happiness, claiming we are "stealing" from the government) so I do try to encourage people to go and hunt treasure, but don't encourage them to pursue leads like these Peralta stones which are highly questionable at best. Would you rather add numbers to the crowd who keep trying to pass laws to outlaw metal detectors, or add numbers to those who wish to preserve our freedom to hunt for treasures? There are plenty of authenticated lost treasures to search for, without having to waste time, money and effort hunting for what could well be (and I am fairly convinced IS) a gigantic fraud.

If anything I have posted is of offense, my apologies, no offense was intended. As always, good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola: just a few words from "south of the border,.down Mexico way" The thingie between Yo & mi is debatable, most of the back country people even today work in the personal or informal exclusively.

My, since passed away, father in law was a prime example of this, his favorite expression was "ya me fui" .
"now I am gone"

When he wrote, he used "B" many times instead of "V", in fact I received an em from one of my grandkiddies in the university in Obregon, where he said "boy" several times, including "Yo Boy a las clases de computacion en la tarde" sheeesh, and I am paying for his education?.

What lamar said about formal or polite Spanish is quite correct, but something that may have happened 2-300 years ago on the frontier being in formal or correct Spanish, is quite debatable. Only in the churches or gov't building would it normally have been found. Merely researching permanent border docments shows this clearly.

Heck, most Americans do not speak correct English for that matter. just look at Oros' or Gullibles posts. heheheheh

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Springfield,

Something to consider is that the Stone Maps' existence (outside of Apache Junction) was not known until 1964 when the article in Life Magazine came out. I do admit that the their being fakes is possible, but I don't think so.

My point was simply that little enough is known about them. To speak in absolutes makes no sense (unless you have some corroborating evidence we don't know about). I suggest you email or PM AZMULA either here or at the Lost Dutchman Forums. Like I said before, nobody has spent more time researching the Stone Maps and the Tumlinson Family than him. My research centered on the modern history of them.

Roy,

My friend, you never cease to amaze me with that selective memory of yours! If you remember, I lived and breathed the "United States vs. MOEL". I also provided the documentation of the case and the SEC Litigation Releases. MOEL was NEVER convicted of anything criminal! The only thing they did was file their paperwork (which allowed them to sell shares in the company) late. They were stopped from selling shares until the requisite paperwork had been filed. THAT WAS IT! Nothing wrong. To show how important their trial was, it began at 2PM and was over the same day. I have spent more time in Traffic Court! They did not use the Stone Maps to sell stock. Both myself and Azmula were in contact with some of the original shareholders (Azmula had been in correspondence with one of the owners). They all stated that MOEL had kept the Stone Maps' existence a secret because Mitchell was still trying to find where they led to.

See Roy, all this information is still on the previous Stone Maps Thread. I didn't want to have to hash it out all over again.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Real de Tayopa wrote:

Heck, most Americans do not speak correct English for that matter. just look at Oros' or Gullibles posts. heheheheh

English? Sheesh - who speaks that foreign lingo English anyway?

I have a single question for you mi amigo Jose' - can you show a genuine, authentic Spanish or Mexican stone inscription that dates to at least the 1840s, that looks similar to what we see on the so-called Peralta stones? I could not find any examples that looked similar, in fact what I could find looks VERY different in style as well as grammar and spelling. To my (admittedly poorly educated, growing slightly fuzzy with time) eye, the Peralta stones just look very wrong and more like a slightly amateurish fraud. There are genuine clues that might lead to lost treasures, but keep in mind that there are many more FAKES than authentic, so a good treasure hunter ought to keep an open but skeptical mind and especially so when looking at ANY kind of treasure map(s).

Mike (Gollum) wrote:

See Roy, all this information is still on the previous Stone Maps Thread. I didn't want to have to hash it out all over again.

Greetings mi amigo Mike, please read over my post to which you are responding - note that I said "no convictions" and that this only served to cast another shadow on those stones. It seems that whenever we delve into anything that is Peralta-related we find frauds and deception. Nothing to fill a treasure hunter with confidence! No need to rehash MOEL, but the fact that they were investigated is alone enough to cast a shadow of doubt. Just as having an accusation of rape, child-molesting etc can destroy the character of a person, just being accused and investigated does cast a shadow.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. (And Jose' - I look forward to seeing the first melted dore bars some day soon! You will be well-enough off that perhaps you might even feel like making a visit to SD some day! Hint, hint!)

your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
To clarify a post:
"Wouldn"t it make sence that the words inscribed would be in very old latin. Latin has been the language of the catholic church from the start. It seems that any very old religous writings would be in very old latin and not in spanish."

In truth, Latin was not widely spoken by members of the Roman Catholic clergy until sometime after the 3rd century AD. Before that the language was mostly Greek, including ther celebration of the Mass. After the 3rd century it has been surmised that both languages were used interchangably for the following one hundred years or so, with Greek finally giving way to Latin around the late 4th, or early 5th century AD.

There are still many Eastern Orthodox churches celebrating their Masses in the original classical Greek language and they are quite melodious and beautiful, so much so that many devout Catholics, after hearing an Eastern Orthodox Mass, have wondered why the Roman Catholic Church switched from Greek to Latin in the first place.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Old Dog]

Lamar

I will be blunt if not impolite.
as I follow your posts I am tickled to see the perochial teaching in your posts.
Let someone who has the teaching be the one to burst your bubble.
I was raised as you were.
In a Jesuit School. Lets not say where, But for the sake of all concerned a state. Montana.

Look at it from the best of perspectives.
I am first hand evidence that the jesuits are not as they seem
They preach one thing and do another.
I may be speaking of one bad apple or the whole barrell.
As far as I'm concerned... the whole barrell is infected and has been for centuries.


Go out and get some serious feet on the ground experience.
You will see what all of the serious Spanish hunters find on a daily basis.

Give me your impression of this one.
Yup
It is Jesuite!

Enlighten me ....PLEASE!

YOUR FRIEND
Old Dog

 

[Oroblanco]

Caveo Jesuitii

 

[Old Dog]

Welcome back my friend Oro.
An
Happy New Year!!

Thom

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Thom for the kind words, and likewise I wish you a very prosperous and Happy New year!
your friend,
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

I know that some folks are convinced the Peralta Stones are Jesuit-created; so...convince me. What makes the Peralta Stones a Jesuit creation? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[VICTORIO]

OD, You know I'm very new at This. Would / can you say what is in that Picture. I don't know what I'm looking at.

 

[Old Dog]

Victorio,
Long time my friend!

The photo is of a Jesuit Death mask.

It would seem to me to either be a serious warning or a grave marker.

But it is a curious thing as there seems to be a great void here.
There are no other signs near it and it points to nothing
It just stares at the trail and looks ominous.

Thom

 

[VICTORIO]

Thank You OD, I sent you a something E- mail. I'm sure you will enjoy it. Thanks again. You are My Buddy. God Bless you !!!