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  1. #31
    us
    Mar 2004
    Severn, Maryland
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    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Good points, but I'd like to point out that Waltz did try to partner up or tried to trust, first Rhiney, then Julia, and and then possibly Dick Holmes as a last resort. If he were healthy and had time, I'm not sure he would have resorted to confiding in those people. My suspicions are that he didn't realize that he was much sicker than he thought, and that death was right at his doorstep.
    You forgot Jacob Weisner as a partner, the one he buried 3 months after the "Indians" killed him and he waited that long because he was afraid of the Indians. I don't think the others were as "Partners", so much as he wanted someone to have his find as he knew he was dying. Of course that is just my 2 cents on it.
    deducer likes this.

  2. #32
    us
    Mar 2004
    Severn, Maryland
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Syn View Post
    Well when it comes down to it, there was only one man that knew the facts, and he took most, if not all of them, with him to the grave.

    As for how he lived, that was his choice, just because he may or may not been wealthy didn't mean he wanted to live like he was.
    Heck, act rich and someone is going to come looking for what you got, and how you got it.
    They did that with him anyway. Many times people tried to follow him before he and his house got flooded out.

  3. #33

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by audigger53 View Post
    You forgot Jacob Weisner as a partner, the one he buried 3 months after the "Indians" killed him and he waited that long because he was afraid of the Indians. I don't think the others were as "Partners", so much as he wanted someone to have his find as he knew he was dying. Of course that is just my 2 cents on it.
    I didn't forget about Weisner. We are talking about Waltz "bequeathing" the mine, i.e., passing it on to someone, rather than partnering with someone to dig it out.
    Oroblanco and audigger53 like this.

  4. #34
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    Title of this thread: Waltz and known facts, not stories.

    Reading books is fine and gives you some idea of what someone else thinks, but it will never give you anything other than 3rd or 4th hand information at best.

    To form solid opinions you have to get down to the first hand information or the information that was directly passed on to someone by an original participant.

    One good example is several years back Roger Newkirk and I were in downtown Phoenix talking about Waltz and people related to the Dutchman story.

    Roger was driving around and we happened into the old part of Phoenix known as the Coronado edition east of downtown. The section where Dick Holmes lived after Jacob Waltz died.
    Roger and I drove past the old Holmes house and turned onto a street a block or two away and I recognized the house of Joe Porterie's grandson. Joe Porterie was the man who did the assay on Waltz's gold ore.

    I saw Porterie's daughter's car in the driveway and said to Roger, lets stop and see if the old man would talk to us about his grandfather and the Waltz story.
    Roger and I walked up to the house, knocked on the door and were welcomed inside. For the next couple hours we sat and talked with Joe Porterie's grandson who was more than happy to tell us everything he knew and remembered as a young man growing up in Phoenix about his famous grandfather and Jacob Waltz.

    We took notes that day and were welcomed back later to get the grandson on tape. We also were invited to see his grandfather's record books from his assay business and the equipment that survived from his assay office. The assay records were written in French as Porterie was born and raised in France.

    It was an enlightening day for Roger and I to say the least, and did we get some good SOLID information that day ? You better believe we did.

    The point is, If you are really and truly serious about getting to the bottom of the Lost Dutchman legend you can't just rely on somebody else's 4th hand book or somebody's theory of how they THINK things were.
    You have to go after the source whenever and wherever you find them. That is the only way you will ever form solid opinions.

    For almost a half a century I have been talking with the old pioneer families and getting their stories. I have almost 300 interviews, photographs and tapes of old timers and people who were in a position to know the straight of the story.
    Sadly most have passed on. Some of the last great interviews I had were with George Holmes (son of Dick Holmes), Maude Bailey (daughter of Matt Cavaness), Alma Alkire, (grandaughter of Frank Alkire), Urban Porterie (grandson of Joe Porterie), Hilda Kramer (daughter of Caroline and Alexander Steinegger and the niece of Julia and Emil Thomas), John Spangler (nephew of Jim Bark), Paul Pettit (gr-grandson of Gottfreid Petrasch).

    If you want known facts and not just stories, these are the people you should have been talking to.

    Best,

    Matthew
    Last edited by Matthew Roberts; May 25, 2018 at 05:32 PM.

  5. #35

    Aug 2017
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    Great point. Even if a source changes soon after some years to be not first hand anymore. At least in music the first hand information about a composer is from his time, after 10 to 20 years it started to be another time without the same deep understanding.

    @audigger If you want facts instead of stories, you should keep to that on both sides of the Waltz-story. Pro mine and contra mine.

    But regarding the frugal life. It was not rare in the Germany of his times to be content with the things you really need. He had a home, some land, enough to eat, enough gold for the rest of his life, if the amount of found gold ore and the money is true, he gave to Julia Thomas before.
    Should he build a big house? A man over 60, without a family, who lived his whole life this way, may not have the wish for another life. He may not recognize the need for better clothes and there was nobody to tell him. He paid no taxes, but that only means he didn't tell about gold from mining, not that he didn't have any.

    One fact: The first hand sources, the people around him, believed that he had a mine. And he had no reason for lying to the person who cared for him, Julia Thomas.

  6. #36

    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by musician View Post
    Great point. Even if a source changes soon after some years to be not first hand anymore. At least in music the first hand information about a composer is from his time, after 10 to 20 years it started to be another time without the same deep understanding.

    @audigger If you want facts instead of stories, you should keep to that on both sides of the Waltz-story. Pro mine and contra mine.

    But regarding the frugal life. It was not rare in the Germany of his times to be content with the things you really need. He had a home, some land, enough to eat, enough gold for the rest of his life, if the amount of found gold ore and the money is true, he gave to Julia Thomas before.
    Should he build a big house? A man over 60, without a family, who lived his whole life this way, may not have the wish for another life. He may not recognize the need for better clothes and there was nobody to tell him. He paid no taxes, but that only means he didn't tell about gold from mining, not that he didn't have any.

    One fact: The first hand sources, the people around him, believed that he had a mine. And he had no reason for lying to the person who cared for him, Julia Thomas.
    Are you the same "Musician" who used to posted on the other forum? (I can't name it here)

  7. #37
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    818
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    musician posted this : @audigger If you want facts instead of stories, you should keep to that on both sides of the Waltz-story. Pro mine and contra mine.

    An excellent point musician.

    In arguing against the mine I'm reading a lot of ; Waltz didn't have a mine because with a mine he woulda done this, or that, or another thing. Or, thats my 2 cents worth on it.

    If it's facts you want about there being a mine, it should be facts about there not being a mine also. Not opinion, or what you THINK would have or should have happened.

    Best,

    Matthew
    Last edited by Matthew Roberts; May 25, 2018 at 07:31 PM.
    Oroblanco and audigger53 like this.

  8. #38
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    musician posted this : @audigger If you want facts instead of stories, you should keep to that on both sides of the Waltz-story. Pro mine and contra mine.

    An excellent point musician.

    In arguing against the mine I'm reading a lot of ; Waltz didn't have a mine because with a mine he woulda done this, or that, or another thing. Or, thats my 2 cents worth on it.

    If it's facts you want about there being a mine, it should be facts about there not being a mine also. Not opinion, or what you THINK would have or should have happened.

    Best,

    Matthew
    most of the people that think waltz never had a mine...have never even set foot in the mountains
    ink and audigger53 like this.

  9. #39
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    Cubfan64 wrote:

    With all things "Dutchman," at some point you either have to believe things or not based on whatever you personally think is good enough evidence - that evidence is different for everyone as evidenced by years and years of these same discussions and arguments over and over again without changing hardly anyone's minds.

    Thank you Cubfan.

    Cubfan has probably posted the most profoundly true statement posted here in many years.

    Everyone has to rely on themselves to decide what they believe and don't believe. They need to do their own research, talk to the old timers themselves and get out in the mountains and hike the trails and back country running down the clues.
    Books are great but if you are sitting around waiting for someone to give you the inside information or for someone to find the mine for you, you need another hobby.
    The old saying, " I don't believe anything I read and only half of what I see", is a good start for searching for the LDM.
    Do your own research, do your own hiking, don't whine because you don't know if an assay report is authentic or not.
    If it's all too much for you, there's always knitting or oragami you could try.

    Matthew
    Thank you for the compliment - not sure it's deserved but I appreciate it. I read what sdcfia had to say shortly after your post and I understood his comments as well. I guess this is how I look at it...

    Early on when I was first learning all I could about the LDM and stories about the Superstitions Mountains it was easy to get caught up in the legends. I lived and still live so far away from the Superstitions that the best I could do was get involved in debates about even the most minute details that would really have nothing to do with ever being able to find the source of gold. Eventually however I was able to spend some time out there, meet other people who've actually searched the mountains and my relationship with the legend evolved.

    I remember one time on Jim Hatt's old forum that I said something about "IF" the mine exists and Jim sent me an e-mail ripping into me. At the time I was still in the early stages of interest and research, so I felt I wasn't convinced Waltz even HAD a gold mine. Some people have said Jim Hatt was rough around the edges - I only knew him for a short time but I found him to be rough ALL OVER, not just around the edges, but he made me think about things which was good.

    As I said, I evolved and finally reached a point where I came to my own conclusions about things. Now that I've reached there, it's so much harder to get caught up in all the little side discussions and I've grown tired of arguing with people. Where it still gets difficult to read and not respond is when I see discussions where some of the participants state things as fact that are simply not correct and unfortunately I just don't have the energy to try to correct them anymore.

    Anyways, I'm rambling now but hopefully that explains why I'm just not very active here anymore. I still check in from time to time but the little nuggets that interest me are becoming fewer and further between.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  10. #40

    Aug 2017
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    27 times
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    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Are you the same "Musician" who used to posted on the other forum? (I can't name it here)
    Yes, the same. More reading than posting, because I live far away.

  11. #41

    Dec 2012
    on the rocks - so cal county line
    Gold bug pro / Whites coin master II
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    Even if he had a stash of super high grade , that could be considered a gold mine but no one will ever know .
    With him trying to pass so said clues and directions , Who really knows ?
    audigger53 likes this.
    Now that the dirty work is done all's that is left is the digging

  12. #42
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,726
    7165 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    ... If it's facts you want about there being a mine, it should be facts about there not being a mine also. Not opinion, or what you THINK would have or should have happened.

    Best,

    Matthew
    There is only one fact that would prove the existence of this alleged mine - its location. Failing that, the story's burden of proof rests on a boatload of testimonies, allegations, rumors and hearsay - nearly all of which arose from way too many degrees of separation from Waltz to be considered reliable. Much convincing hearsay, oh yes, but any more than one degree of separation cannot be considered uncorrupted. The box of picture rock was tangible evidence and presumably attributable to Waltz. However, that rock could have come from anywhere.

    It's understandable why so many folks back in the day were avid searchers - they were much closer to the flame and were caught up in the emotion of the times. However, today, whether or not the Waltz mine exists as currently believed by many (it's possible of course), my working model is that I haven't seen anything to justify a serious ground search for it.
    audigger53, Thirsty44 and ink like this.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  13. #43

    Nov 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    .... The box of picture rock was tangible evidence and presumably attributable to Waltz. However, that rock could have come from anywhere. .....
    You look at it as "it could have come from anywhere," I look at it as "it had to come from somewhere."

    That somewhere is anybody's guess.

    I believe it was in Dr. Glover's book where a chemical analysis of the candlebox ore was published. This is THE benchmark for proving the relocation of the lost dutchman mine. If someone finds a mine that produces ore where the chemical composition of both the gold and the gangue material matches the tested candlebox ore, then they've relocated the lost dutchman mine. Whether or not it's in the Superstitions is immaterial.
    sdcfia, Oroblanco, ink and 1 others like this.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security deserves neither and shall lose both -Benjamin Franklin

  14. #44
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,726
    7165 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Baldwin View Post
    You look at it as "it could have come from anywhere," I look at it as "it had to come from somewhere."

    That somewhere is anybody's guess.

    I believe it was in Dr. Glover's book where a chemical analysis of the candlebox ore was published. This is THE benchmark for proving the relocation of the lost dutchman mine. If someone finds a mine that produces ore where the chemical composition of both the gold and the gangue material matches the tested candlebox ore, then they've relocated the lost dutchman mine. Whether or not it's in the Superstitions is immaterial.
    You have much more confidence in the "ore comparison" idea than I do, for reasons that were covered in great detail somewhere in these large LDM threads. But, theoretically, you're right - if an ore sample was retrieved somewhere that all agreed was a match to the Glover jewelry ore tests, then the jewelry ore would likely be assumed to have come from that "somewhere."
    audigger53 likes this.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  15. #45
    us
    Jul 2015
    Phx. A.Z.
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    Walter Gasslers manuscript page 9,
    "Dick Holmes told Tex Berkeley he left 6-7 bags back there buried and hidden." And since Clay said that J.W. covered the mine with logs and dirt, he wouldn't need the mine. He could get the gold from bags when ever he needed to.
    audigger53 likes this.
    CHERISH EVERYTHING IN LIFE, IT ONLY HAPPENS ONCE.

 

 
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