Charlie Miller...

[azdave35]

The very first thought I had when I read that section, was that "Charlie Miller", or whomever it was the telegram was sent to, had most likely swindled Travis...hate to say it, but it wouldn't be the first time such a thing would have happened, and it's always my first thought when dealing with any treasure map or "inside information" about the Supes...perhaps the same someone who told Travis the B.S. story about Roy Bradford killing Ruth, or Tex trying to poison Bradford...sad...I won't shoot the messenger, in this case Travis, but it is what it is...

a swindler in the ldm community? now we all know that couldn't be possible

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Minelab PRO-FIND 35 Waterproof Pinpointer Metal Detector for Experts with Tone ID & Adjustable Sensitivity - Grab it through Amazon!

[somehiker]

The very first thought I had when I read that section, was that "Charlie Miller", or whomever it was the telegram was sent to, had most likely swindled Travis...hate to say it, but it wouldn't be the first time such a thing would have happened, and it's always my first thought when dealing with any treasure map or "inside information" about the Supes...perhaps the same someone who told Travis the B.S. story about Roy Bradford killing Ruth, or Tex trying to poison Bradford...sad...I won't shoot the messenger, in this case Travis, but it is what it is...

Read it again Jim.
If it's a draft of a telegram from Travis to someone, Travis is asking if that person would be willing to sell a set of stone maps which he is aware of, and obviously somewhat familiar with....and offering as much as $ 8,000. cash for the entire set. Never a good idea though, to name the highest amount you are willing to pay in an opening offer. Cut it in half at least....IMO....since the asking price will very likely be higher anyway.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Read it again Jim...

Naw...heard this sort of thing it before...I know how it ends...

Read it again Jim.
If it's a draft of a telegram from Travis to someone, Travis is asking if that person would be willing to sell a set of stone maps which he is aware of, and obviously somewhat familiar with....

Of that, I have no doubt...that he had seen them, or been hooked with that and other stories...

...and offering as much as $ 8,000. cash for the entire set. Never a good idea though, to name the highest amount you are willing to pay in an opening offer...

What makes you think $8,000 was all he was willing to pay?

Brother, I grew up there. My dad and step-dad grew up there. My grandpa that got me started on the LDM, hit AZ from MO in the '30's...you can bet he heard some tales, those were lean days...that grandpa was the lumber yard manager at O'Malley's...where do you think all those ranchers and prospectors hung out during the week and got the hardware they needed...I cut my teeth on these stories, was raised with them, I've set on that bar stool and seen all the Ruth maps and heard all the BS before there was ever an internet...there's not much mystery for me in secret maps in the superstitions...just sayin'

I can tell you how this ends...it's gonna be like the kid with the secret decoder ring and all he gets in the end is "Drink More Ovaltine"...and that's OK with me...I'm in it for the history and stories, nothing else...but I just hate to see people get screwed out of money chasing some BS dream...

 

[Matthew Roberts]

PotBellyJim,

Just a little something to consider. To put things into some perspective.

In 1948 the approximate year of the "telegram", One US Dollar ($1.00) was the equal equivalent of Ten Dollars and Fifty-Four cents ($10.54) today.

So in actual relation to today, Travis Tumlinson was willing and offering to pay (at least) the equivalent (today) of Eighty Thousand Five Hundred Dollars ($80,500.00) for the maps/collection.

In 1948, the average yearly wage in America BEFORE taxes was Three Thousand One Hundred Dollars ($3,100.00).

Let that sink in for a moment everyone.

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

Naw...heard this sort of thing it before...I know how it ends...



Of that, I have no doubt...that he had seen them, or been hooked with that and other stories...



What makes you think $8,000 was all he was willing to pay?

Brother, I grew up there. My dad and step-dad grew up there. My grandpa that got me started on the LDM, hit AZ from MO in the '30's...you can bet he heard some tales, those were lean days...that grandpa was the lumber yard manager at O'Malley's...where do you think all those ranchers and prospectors hung out during the week and got the hardware they needed...I cut my teeth on these stories, was raised with them, I've set on that bar stool and seen all the Ruth maps and heard all the BS before there was ever an internet...there's not much mystery for me in secret maps in the superstitions...just sayin'

I can tell you how this ends...it's gonna be like the kid with the secret decoder ring and all he gets in the end is "Drink More Ovaltine"...and that's OK with me...I'm in it for the history and stories, nothing else...but I just hate to see people get screwed out of money chasing some BS dream...

same here jim...i've heard all the b.s....and there is plenty....it wasnt that bad before the internet...then every tom..dick..and harry hit the keyboard slinging b/s

 

[somehiker]

What makes you think $8,000 was all he was willing to pay?

Just going by the number written on the draft Jim.
With that, it seems Travis had that amount in mind, as to "as much as".....what ever he meant.
Sure.....it's possible he was willing to up the ante to secure the stones. But we can't just assume that from what is written on this piece of paper. And if in the end, he got what he wanted and paid for with his own money, rather than somebody else's, or the offer came to nothing. This draft on it's own, is not evidence of a con IMO.
That's all I'm saying....

 

[sgtfda]

Small change for a man who recovered all the train robbery loot.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Just going by the number written on the draft Jim.
With that, it seems Travis had that amount in mind, as to "as much as".....what ever he meant.
Sure.....it's possible he was willing to up the ante to secure the stones. But we can't just assume that from what is written on this piece of paper. And if in the end, he got what he wanted and paid for with his own money, rather than somebody else's, or the offer came to nothing. This draft on it's own, is not evidence of a con IMO.
That's all I'm saying....

Fair 'nuff...I'm no expert on stone maps or treasure maps or who had what stones...but if you're looking for evidence of a con, once the "Ruth" map was mentioned, that was enough for me...it tells me to lift up my skirts and run...take a look at all those maps rolled up in the cardboard tube...think they paid for those? How many of those lead to a treasure?

Some guy goes to AZ looking for treasure, eventually someone's gonna tell him a story and try to sell him a map...if they know he has access to capital, look out...They're gonna bring their buddies in on the deal and the sting is gonna take on a life of its own...I wonder how much MOEL raised on those stones...take all the money "officially"scammed from people from various Superstitions scams...then multiply it by about 100...that's more like the real number, because most folks won't admit it...basically it boils down to this: if you want evidence of a con in the Supes, once someone wants money...it's a con.

Same thing, if you go poking around down in Mexico looking for Peralta's, eventually you're going to trip over some fella that just happens to know where to lay hands on a map...funny how that works...

 

[azdave35]

Fair 'nuff...I'm no expert on stone maps or treasure maps or who had what stones...but if you're looking for evidence of a con, once the "Ruth" map was mentioned, that was enough for me...it tells me to lift up my skirts and run...take a look at all those maps rolled up in the cardboard tube...think they paid for those? How many of those lead to a treasure?

Some guy goes to AZ looking for treasure, eventually someone's gonna tell him a story and try to sell him a map...if they know he has access to capital, look out...They're gonna bring their buddies in on the deal and the sting is gonna take on a life of its own...I wonder how much MOEL raised on those stones...take all the money "officially"scammed from people from various Superstitions scams...then multiply it by about 100...that's more like the real number, because most folks won't admit it...basically it boils down to this: if you want evidence of a con in the Supes, once someone wants money...it's a con.

Same thing, if you go poking around down in Mexico looking for Peralta's, eventually you're going to trip over some fella that just happens to know where to lay hands on a map...funny how that works...

jim....it has always amazed me how many people will put faith in some old map...and i mean dump their life savings following this said map...not this old hillbilly

 

[somehiker]

Fair 'nuff...I'm no expert on stone maps or treasure maps or who had what stones...but if you're looking for evidence of a con, once the "Ruth" map was mentioned, that was enough for me...it tells me to lift up my skirts and run...take a look at all those maps rolled up in the cardboard tube...think they paid for those? How many of those lead to a treasure?

Some guy goes to AZ looking for treasure, eventually someone's gonna tell him a story and try to sell him a map...if they know he has access to capital, look out...They're gonna bring their buddies in on the deal and the sting is gonna take on a life of its own...I wonder how much MOEL raised on those stones...take all the money "officially"scammed from people from various Superstitions scams...then multiply it by about 100...that's more like the real number, because most folks won't admit it...basically it boils down to this: if you want evidence of a con in the Supes, once someone wants money...it's a con.

Same thing, if you go poking around down in Mexico looking for Peralta's, eventually you're going to trip over some fella that just happens to know where to lay hands on a map...funny how that works...

Can't disagree with anything you said there Jim.....'cept maybe the MOEL part, since the evidence we do have indicates that it was actually Clarence Mitchell's acquisition of the stones in late Jan.1963, followed by the Life Magazine article in 1964, and the publication of his own book about them that was the beginning of the end for MOEL, rather than the beginning.

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Whatever happened in here last night after my post I apologize. I am not sure what I said or did to have my comment deleted. Oh well.. But I totally agree with Jim and Somehiker.

It just has con written all over it!

I'll go back to my cage now.

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Is Sarge being sarcastic or have the stoners gotten to him? I remember him being vociferous in them being a distraction and now he seems to be pro-stones.

Maybe the stones have mind control and/or a subliminal message that brain washes people. Lol.

 

[azdave35]

Is Sarge being sarcastic or have the stoners gotten to him? I remember him being vociferous in them being a distraction and now he seems to be pro-stones.

Maybe the stones have mind control and/or a subliminal message that brain washes people. Lol.

lol...they are definitely evil

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Whatever happened in here last night after my post I apologize. I am not sure what I said or did to have my comment deleted. Oh well.. But I totally agree with Jim and Somehiker.

It just has con written all over it!

I'll go back to my cage now.

I deleted all posts that violated our rules as well as posts that quoted posts that violated our rules or references posts that violated our rules.

 

[deducer]

They have a way of bringing out what's really in people.

 

[sgtfda]

Is Sarge being sarcastic or have the stoners gotten to him? I remember him being vociferous in them being a distraction and now he seems to be pro-stones.

Maybe the stones have mind control and/or a subliminal message that brain washes people. Lol.

Sarcastic yes. No question the stones were made by Travis. I believe he copied the ground map. The barn map may be a tracing of the Miller stone. Who knows

 

[Cubfan64]

Bear with me a bit please, I'm going to try to recount a little information that Garry Cundiff and Larry Hannah found when trying to locate a Charlie Miller awhile back when his name came up on another forum. Nobody is saying this is the right person, but it does fit the time frame that Lynda mentioned about Travis thinking Charlie was in his 70's in 1958. They were also basing this on something Tom Kollenborn mentioned on another forum in 2010...

Miller was a close associate of Roy Bradford, and a strong advocate of the Peralta Stone Maps. He dates back to the early 1950's. He lived in Phoenix near 48th Street and Thomas Road. I believe on either Brill or Culver Streets. Actually in those days that was a real nice part of town. He also helped Robert G. Tumlinson clean up the stone maps when they were originally found. He allegedly made one of the first tracings of the Stone Maps before they were altered by Tumlinson to confuse anyone who might steal them. You have to take it from here. I did meet him once at the U Ranch in 1955. I made a note that he was at the ranch seeking information about the area from Barkley. Barkley ask him to leave

Here is an obituary from the Scottsdale Daily Progress, Dec 19, 1973... this would have him being born in 1889 and being 69/70 in 1958.



Note the location of the residence being close to Tom Kollenborn's remembered location.

I can't find the reference, but I thought Lynda or Ryan stated that Charlie Miller had an injury or something along those lines. This particular Charles W MIller was in the newspaper for a train accident in May, 1919... The newspaper copy is light but hopefully you can read it (El Paso Herald, May 1, 1919)



I got excited at one point when I saw that he and his wife had a son named Charles Fain Wilson in 1916. I got it in my head that the obituary for that son had a date of death in 2000, so I thought perhaps there was a Charles Miller Jr. that was also known by Al Reser, but I had a brain fart and his death was actually in 1970 (3 years before his father's) so that was my mistake.

Documented places of residence during his life include Phoenix, Tempe, Chandler, Ajo and Scottsdale.

Clearly if this happens to be the Charlie Miller that Travis knew, it's not the same person that Al Reser knew as Charlie Miller. One little wrinkle to all of this that popped into my head the other day...

There are multiple instances where Charlie Miller is associated with Bill Hidden - especially by Jim Hatt - here is one of the posts as an example...



I posted a newspaper article the other day about a Bill Hidden involved in searching for riches in the Superstitions... an interesting tidbit I found in the Maricopa County Recorder's archives (and I believe Hal Croves located this same information a couple years ago) is as follows...



Note that William Hidden (and I haven't done enough to know whether it's the same Bill Hidden from the newspaper clipping) goes by the name William Ryan for "security purposes." Here we have a person who apparently uses alternate names.

I'm just tossing this out there, but what if Bill Hidden knew the Charlie Miller that Travis knew - so he knew about the stone maps, etc... and after Charlie passed away, he used his name now and then and perhaps that's the person Al Reser knew as Charlie Miller?

Ok all of this is completely conjecture on my part with A LOT of assumptions, guesses and other assorted possible BS thrown in, but perhaps the names and some of the information above can prompt other folks to dig a little deeper. If the person Al Reser knew who lived near him was actually someone other than Charlie Miller - perhaps someone like William Hidden who went by other names, it's probably going to be impossible to track him, but it might be worth a shot to try to find out where William Hidden lived and when he died?

I'm honestly hoping someone like AZDave who has sources in AJ might be able to get some more information on Charlie Miller and/or Bill Hidden. Anyways, it's a place to start and might lead somewhere interesting - on the other hand it may wind up being a complete dead end.

 

[azdave35]

Bear with me a bit please, I'm going to try to recount a little information that Garry Cundiff and Larry Hannah found when trying to locate a Charlie Miller awhile back when his name came up on another forum. Nobody is saying this is the right person, but it does fit the time frame that Lynda mentioned about Travis thinking Charlie was in his 70's in 1958. They were also basing this on something Tom Kollenborn mentioned on another forum in 2010...



Here is an obituary from the Scottsdale Daily Progress, Dec 19, 1973... this would have him being born in 1889 and being 69/70 in 1958.

View attachment 1614335

Note the location of the residence being close to Tom Kollenborn's remembered location.

I can't find the reference, but I thought Lynda or Ryan stated that Charlie Miller had an injury or something along those lines. This particular Charles W MIller was in the newspaper for a train accident in May, 1919... The newspaper copy is light but hopefully you can read it (El Paso Herald, May 1, 1919)

View attachment 1614337

I got excited at one point when I saw that he and his wife had a son named Charles Fain Wilson in 1916. I got it in my head that the obituary for that son had a date of death in 2000, so I thought perhaps there was a Charles Miller Jr. that was also known by Al Reser, but I had a brain fart and his death was actually in 1970 (3 years before his father's) so that was my mistake.

Documented places of residence during his life include Phoenix, Tempe, Chandler, Ajo and Scottsdale.

Clearly if this happens to be the Charlie Miller that Travis knew, it's not the same person that Al Reser knew as Charlie Miller. One little wrinkle to all of this that popped into my head the other day...

There are multiple instances where Charlie Miller is associated with Bill Hidden - especially by Jim Hatt - here is one of the posts as an example...

View attachment 1614365

I posted a newspaper article the other day about a Bill Hidden involved in searching for riches in the Superstitions... an interesting tidbit I found in the Maricopa County Recorder's archives (and I believe Hal Croves located this same information a couple years ago) is as follows...

View attachment 1614366

Note that William Hidden (and I haven't done enough to know whether it's the same Bill Hidden from the newspaper clipping) goes by the name William Ryan for "security purposes." Here we have a person who apparently uses alternate names.

I'm just tossing this out there, but what if Bill Hidden knew the Charlie Miller that Travis knew - so he knew about the stone maps, etc... and after Charlie passed away, he used his name now and then and perhaps that's the person Al Reser knew as Charlie Miller?

Ok all of this is completely conjecture on my part with A LOT of assumptions, guesses and other assorted possible BS thrown in, but perhaps the names and some of the information above can prompt other folks to dig a little deeper. If the person Al Reser knew who lived near him was actually someone other than Charlie Miller - perhaps someone like William Hidden who went by other names, it's probably going to be impossible to track him, but it might be worth a shot to try to find out where William Hidden lived and when he died?

I'm honestly hoping someone like AZDave who has sources in AJ might be able to get some more information on Charlie Miller and/or Bill Hidden. Anyways, it's a place to start and might lead somewhere interesting - on the other hand it may wind up being a complete dead end.

i sent a couple texts out and havent heard anything yet....i know a guy that would probably know but he doesn't have internet..phone or permanent residence so i cant contact him but he does stop by now and then when he isn't in the mountains..if i hear from him i'll ask him..if all else fails i could drive out to the bluebird and see what louie ruiz knows..depending on his mood at the time he might tell me something...lol

 

[Cubfan64]

i sent a couple texts out and havent heard anything yet....i know a guy that would probably know but he doesn't have internet..phone or permanent residence so i cant contact him but he does stop by now and then when he isn't in the mountains..if i hear from him i'll ask him..if all else fails i could drive out to the bluebird and see what louie ruiz knows..depending on his mood at the time he might tell me something...lol

Yeah, I've met Louie a few times although he wouldn't know me from Adam - I think every time I've stopped in to look around the place again or pick up a water or soda he was in an irritable mood. I'm not trying to rush you for anything - this story will be hashed and rehashed for a long time as it is, just mentioned that maybe some old timers would know more about this than what we've seen on forums.

 

[azdave35]

Yeah, I've met Louie a few times although he wouldn't know me from Adam - I think every time I've stopped in to look around the place again or pick up a water or soda he was in an irritable mood. I'm not trying to rush you for anything - this story will be hashed and rehashed for a long time as it is, just mentioned that maybe some old timers would know more about this than what we've seen on forums.

i've known louie for many years and sometimes he's nice as can be and other times he bites your head off...he's an old Vietnam vet and a little on the moody side..lol..but he has been there since the mid 60's and knows the history well....whether or not he will tell you anything is a crapshoot...depending on the day you catch him..lol..i wish old john wilburn was still there and still had his wits about him..he was very easy to deal with